FLY HALVES - Greatest XV Ever - voted by 606v2

So, despite lower turn outs, my HERSH replacement threads (hopefully less popular because HERSH already did a(n arguably WUMMerific) Centres one, but we'll find out on this one...) showed that BOD was everyone's favourite 13 (followed by Sella) and Horan 12 (followed by Gibson some margin behind). Now for 10s. Same things apply as on previous threads. I'd love to put Evans in there but I think that's probably a step too far (not that all the choices are better tbh)

Carter hands down for me...the 2005 Lions tour was the best I've ever seen anyone play rugby...

I also went for Carter

Where's Dan Parks?

Wheres Owen Farrell?

Yeah, I missed off Cipriani too, oops.

Well I will make a case for Naas die Baas (the boss) Botha. Although he missed out on international rugby for nigh on a decade, since his selection into the springbok squad up to the isolation years, the springboks won 18 out of 23 matches.

His record was slightly marred when on our return in the first year we lost 4 out of 5, but Naas Botha in his prime of his career was nigh on unbeatable.

We scored 73 tries during his 28 test career, showing his abiliity to get his back line moving in the days when tries were much harder to come by.

during the isolation years our Currie Cup was our test rugby and in that time, he took the Bulls then Northern Transvaal to nine currie cup wins and two shared trophies with western Province, a record still unsurpassed to this day.

Famous words of Doc. Craven was "Give me Naas and I will conquer the world."

His most famous vicotry was in 1987 during a rain filled match, where he scored all the point for a Northern Transvaal team, outlayed completely by Transvaal on the day. during half time he went to his captain and siad to him " Give me the ball and I will win you the match, he subsequently borke Transvaal supporters' hearts when he slotted 4 drop goals to win the match 24-18.

I went for Mark Ella, the obvious choice was Dan Carter but in the Amateur days i have never seen a 10 as good as Ella and Phill Bennett but feel that Ella had the more complete game.

Phil Bennett for me.

For flips sake Chequered, how can you have O'Gara in there but not John Rutherford?

Some great fly hlafs there,

Johnny Wilkinson

Dan Carter

Andy Merthens

Grant Fox

Neil Jenkins

They have all been the best or one of the best fly 10's in the history of the game so far.

When selecting his best ever team about 8 years ago (so prior to Carter at his best but including Wilkinson at his best) Bill McClaren went for someone not on the list.

LondonTiger wrote:When selecting his best ever team about 8 years ago (so prior to Carter at his best but including Wilkinson at his best) Bill McClaren went for someone not on the list.

And that was?

eirebilly wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:When selecting his best ever team about 8 years ago (so prior to Carter at his best but including Wilkinson at his best) Bill McClaren went for someone not on the list.

And that was?

Believe it or not - Rob Andrew.

Looks like he did this 10 years ago:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tv_and_radio/rugby_special/1842121.stm

So even the great Bill McLaren had his off moments.

also looking at the Irish names on the list, Jackie Kyle was some way before my time, but Ollie Campbell and tony Ward were both better than ROG

LT, Rob Andrew was a decent 10, and it was who i suspected you meant, but i just never saw him as being great to be honest.

Oh I do not view him as a "Great" player. He was perfect for that England team. When you have a list that includes people who have only just started their careers or were never really first choice he perhaps deserves to be on the list.

Rob Andrew was my era and didn't have the all round game to be considered a great. He was made to look very good by having Guscott, Underwood and Bumface outside him.

His kicking out of hand was absolutely astonishing though.

obviously JW with carter a close second

surely ones opinion on this is going to be effected by age, i went for dan carter as i am too young to have seen greats like bennett and even lynagh properly

Yeah age will be a factor Gavin. I do rate Dan Carter as one of the best but he doesnt seem to have that WOW factor as much as an Ella or a Bennett has for me

George Carlin wrote:Rob Andrew was my era and didn't have the all round game to be considered a great. He was made to look very good by having Guscott, Underwood and Bumface outside him.

His kicking out of hand was absolutely astonishing though.

I agree he was not great (repeating myself ) but he could run and pass. He got in the team as a student as an attacking stand-off after outplaying Barnes in a varsity game.

Rob Andrew was not as good as he might bhave beenfor England because they never really committed to him. If the team had been built to play to his strengths like with Wilkinson he might have been seen as a great.

However - Carter is head and shoulders above the rest I believe

Can anyone even remember the Ella brothers?

However - Carter is head and shoulders above the rest I believe
TJ


Posts: 412
Join date: 2011-08-06



If they was both the same age and playing at the same time, then i do believe that Andrew Merthens would give Dan Carteer a run for his money.

I would put Merthens above Carter.

I've gone for the old magician Barry John

However, if you were to ask who my favourite fly-half was, I'd have gone for Thomas Castaignède.

I absolutely loved watching him when I was growing up - lightning fast in mind and body, he also offered hope that you didn't have to be the biggest chap to play rugby very very well.

for me Michael Lynagh will always remain the complete package in terms of fly-half : a player with instinct, always doing the right pass and also gifted wuith a great boot. think he scored 900 points for the wallabies.

as far as french player are concerned, Christophe Lamaison would deserve a mention in this list just for his great performance in the 1999 SF agaisnt the ABs and Carlos Spencer (28 points including 2 DGs and 1 try).

It's a very subjective topic.

The King for me, no one has surpassed his guile and talent.

Good work on an un-objective list.

Its a tough one. Do you vote for the flashy, asethetically pleasing players like Bennett or Ella, or the boys who have done it with the boot in the most pressured situations at the highest level, like Wilko and Jenkins.

I'm probably going with my heart and say Neil Jenkins. There are some wonderful fly halfs on that list, but the guy almost single handedly kept the Lions in the test series with SA in 97. The kicks he made encouraged his team mates to keep going, knowing Neil was there to do the buissness. That kick to beat England at Wembley was far from easy, yet he made it look so simple. If there was one guy you could put your mortgage on not missing for you in the most pressurised situation, it was Neil. So i'll vote for him. Not much between them all though.

martyr_94 wrote:Its a tough one. Do you vote for the flashy, asethetically pleasing players like Bennett or Ella, or the boys who have done it with the boot in the most pressured situations at the highest level, like Wilko and Jenkins.

Very good point.

For me the difference between good, very good, extremely good and great is the ability to deliver under pressure. The more the pressure the greater the player. This does not mean the player with the best all around skills, as that, to me, is a very different question.

Greatness comes with the ability to shoulder all the pressure and raise the level higher.
Greatness is heart, soul, guts.

Carter for mine. Seen a fair few great 10s, but Carter does not have a weakness in his game. Yes the 05 Lions 2nd Test was his best moment, but watch last year's 3N game in Auckland for proof he's still got it. Possibly the best defensive game from a 10 I've seen (waiting for the Wilko fans to get up in arms-Wilko was a more destructive tackler-second only to Honiball in my view but Carter hit em bloody hard too).

Enjoy watching John, Bennett and Ella on highlights reels and it's a shame I didn't see more but it's DC for me. Loved a cartoon after that fateful day in October where a wife said to her husband in bed "Now we'll both be going to sleep thinking of Dan Carter's groin". Gold.

not one to bleat on about votes to much- however i think JW needs to get closer to carter. the guy is a legend and has won a rwc in massive style in teh SH v a home side- with a drop goal kick!!!!. lets be honest here carter hasnt really!!, and as part of the best side in the world it might be abit telling- however shame he got injured in 2011- i am sure NZ would have still won it with him in the side

mystiroakey wrote:not one to bleat on about votes to much- however i think JW needs to get closer to carter. the guy is a legend and has won a rwc in massive style in teh SH v a home side- with a drop goal kick!!!!. lets be honest here carter hasnt really!!, and as part of the best side in the world it might be abit telling- however shame he got injured in 2011- i am sure NZ would have still won it with him in the side

Half the flyhalfs up there played before the RWC was invented, winning a RWC is not a criteria for great individual effort. I am sure you will also remember that JW was lauded for being rubbish at that world cup with Aussie headlines like "is that all you got?" printed above JWs face.

Of the modern flyhalfs Carter is the best but not by as massive a distance as the sky sports pundits elude, Mark Ella was as good as Carter and Spencer the more fun to watch.

I think Ollie Campbell or Tony Ward are worth a mention too, great players both, kickers and game managers but could excite a backline too.

maestegmafia wrote:I am sure you will also remember that JW was lauded for being rubbish at that world cup with Aussie headlines like "is that all you got?" printed above JWs face.

They weren't mocking Jonny for being rubbish they were having a go at England for being one-dimensional and relying on Wilkinson's boot. Anyway, they were wrong about that. They were also scared. They were right to be scared

yes Safe it was almost a massive compliment to johnny, yet a dig at the rest of england.

For me Wilkinson is one of the weakest in that list amd before you consider me biased so is ROG.

As someone said both Ollie Campbell and Tony Ward were better 10's than ROG

George Carlin wrote:Phil Bennett for me.

For flips sake Chequered, how can you have O'Gara in there but not John Rutherford?

Sorry. Could a Mod add him please?

whocares wrote:for me Michael Lynagh will always remain the complete package in terms of fly-half : a player with instinct, always doing the right pass and also gifted wuith a great boot. think he scored 900 points for the wallabies.

as far as french player are concerned, Christophe Lamaison would deserve a mention in this list just for his great performance in the 1999 SF agaisnt the ABs and Carlos Spencer (28 points including 2 DGs and 1 try).

Lamaison was more a centre I thought, despite playing at 10 in a RWC final? Admittedly Maso was too, so maybe I should have included him

geoff998rugby wrote:For me Wilkinson is one of the weakest in that list amd before you consider me biased so is ROG.

As someone said both Ollie Campbell and Tony Ward were better 10's than ROG

Really? From around 99 to 02 there was not a better attacking OH in world rugby in my opinion. People often forget that before he was a solid kicker and defender he was a seriously good attacker.

I also agree with whomever said that Andrew Mehrtens would have given Dan Carter a run for his money. Mehrts was electric at 10.

I like the fact that two people said Mehrtens might be better than Carter but nobody picked him!

ChequeredJersey wrote:

whocares wrote:for me Michael Lynagh will always remain the complete package in terms of fly-half : a player with instinct, always doing the right pass and also gifted wuith a great boot. think he scored 900 points for the wallabies.

as far as french player are concerned, Christophe Lamaison would deserve a mention in this list just for his great performance in the 1999 SF agaisnt the ABs and Carlos Spencer (28 points including 2 DGs and 1 try).

Lamaison was more a centre I thought, despite playing at 10 in a RWC final? Admittedly Maso was too, so maybe I should have included him

Michael Lynagh too, only played flyhalf at international level, he was a Centre at club level in Oz. I think his first caps were in a 12 shirt.

You're just making stuff up Billy. He was an ok attacker nothing more. Probably did his best attacking stuff on the 2001 Lions tour and he relied heavily on Will Greenwood and Matt Dawson for direction and game management.

Mehrtens, Spencer and Larkham were much better at attacking in that period for a start.

Carter was the best fly half I've seen, maybe the best player too.

ChequeredJersey wrote:I like the fact that two people said Mehrtens might be better than Carter but nobody picked him!

Thats because i picked Mark Ella

Of course it is invidious to make such comparisons over so many years,in the 1920`s one would say Bennie Osler,or Mark Nichols.In the 1950`s Cliff Morgan,Jackie Kyle,Bev Risman,Richard Sharpe all come to mind.
In the 60` and 70`s Mike Gibson[the best],Tony Ward,Ollie Campbell,Barry John,Phil Bennett,Earl Kirton,Guy and Didier Camberero.Hugo Porta and DomingueZ for Argentina and later Italy.
Australia had a lot of good ones,as did NZ and SA frankly impossible to judge BUT .Of those i`ve seen it would be Mike Gibson and i`ve seen them all since the mid 1950`s

roddersm wrote:You're just making stuff up Billy. He was an ok attacker nothing more. Probably did his best attacking stuff on the 2001 Lions tour and he relied heavily on Will Greenwood and Matt Dawson for direction and game management.

Mehrtens, Spencer and Larkham were much better at attacking in that period for a start.

Carter was the best fly half I've seen, maybe the best player too.

I am not sure about that i am rodders. I remember JW being a very good attacker in the early years before focussing more heavily on his defense and kicking. I think that some other people may even agree with me. I may be Irish but i can still compliment an English player

ChequeredJersey wrote:
Lamaison was more a centre I thought, despite playing at 10 in a RWC final? Admittedly Maso was too, so maybe I should have included him

cant recall in which position he played the most to be honest (he also palyed at full back) but thought his last years were at 10 (it used to be that flyhalf was the natural evolution of a gifted centre)

Only one man for me and that is Barry John. Led the Lions to victory in New Zealand in 1971where he is still known as "The King". Had it all.

As an Englishman my heart of course says Jonny.
For me as a young lad, it would have been B John, and P Bennett. But it is so difficult to compare directly with the professional age, so today, my head has to vote Carter.

emack2 wrote:Mike Gibson[the best],

Mike Gibson was a great player but a better centre than he ever was a wing or flyhalf. He was certainly never the best. A shadow to the King.