FLY HALVES - Greatest XV Ever - voted by 606v2

First topic message reminder :

So, despite lower turn outs, my HERSH replacement threads (hopefully less popular because HERSH already did a(n arguably WUMMerific) Centres one, but we'll find out on this one...) showed that BOD was everyone's favourite 13 (followed by Sella) and Horan 12 (followed by Gibson some margin behind). Now for 10s. Same things apply as on previous threads. I'd love to put Evans in there but I think that's probably a step too far (not that all the choices are better tbh)

Carter for me.

As already mentioned the Lions series in 2005 is the best I have ever seen someone play rugby.

Biltong, there's some story from the Lions tour where some prominent South African said that if the Lions gave them Cliff Morgan, the Brits could have some of their land back!

I think if you asked Cliff Morgan himself, he'd say Jackie Kyle - he calls him 'the incomparable Jackie Kyle'.

Crafty splitting of the Welsh bloc vote with that selection ! Gone for Barry John who redefined the position in NZ with the Lions , runner up would be Carter though I love Neil Jenkins of course.

pontylad wrote:Crafty splitting of the Welsh bloc vote with that selection ! Gone for Barry John who redefined the position in NZ with the Lions , runner up would be Carter though I love Neil Jenkins of course.

It's all about tactics - you'll note the NZers are carefully avoiding voting for Carlos, Merhts or Fox

I started watching rugby in the mid 80s, so can't comment on anyone from before that. And Carter gets my vote for doing every facet of the modern #10's game very well. He may not be the absolute best at any facet, but he's in the top 3 at almost everything.

Splitting out the facets (just on guys who played in the pro era):
Goal Kicking - 1 Steyn, with JW, Jenkins, DC and Merhts all up there
Vision - 1 Merhtens (always knew whether to run, kick or pass, and was a genius at putting kicks in the right place). Up there: DC, Lynagh
Defence - 1 JW. Up there - DC, <cough> Donald <cough>
Line kicking (distance clearing line/finding touch) - 1 Steyn. Up there - DC,
Running - 1= Cooper/Spencer/Larkham. Up there - DC, Merhts
Passing - 1 Merhts (he was able to make up for Marshall's slow passes from the ruck). Up there: DC, Cooper, Larkham
Drop kicking (goals): 1=JW/Stransky/Steyn/de Beer
Drop kicking (restarts): 1= DC/Merhts/Larkham

Kiwi,
I guess your list goes to show we all see things differently, though I feel everyone you mention is obviously terrific at each facet. I can never get to saying one player was 'greatest' or 'best' because the gaps are too small and it depends on what you like in the position and how much of a person you saw. But, I do separate the great from the extremely good, not on pure skill but on their impact on those around them.

But a couple of quick thoughts.
- I absolutely like seeing Merhtens mentioned prominently. I was always a big fan, and for some reason seems to be overlooked from time to time.
- I thought Larkham had great vision and when kicking from hand in open play could land his kick on a six pence. Better than anyone I have seen before or since.

The problem is that comparing these players is hard enough but when we have players from 50-60 years ago it gets even more difficult.

Of the modern era, Carter is the best I have seen.

My grandfather who played a bit at 10 survived just to see proffessionalism come in and often said that the best outside halfs he had seen play were Naas Botha and Cliff Morgan, Barry and Benny were poor runners up behind Jiffy and Cliff in his eyes for Wales. He simply though that Botha had everything.

pontylad wrote:Crafty splitting of the Welsh bloc vote with that selection ! Gone for Barry John who redefined the position in NZ with the Lions , runner up would be Carter though I love Neil Jenkins of course.

Whilst I would have bet my life on the Ginger monster kicking a penalty or conversion for Wales he never displayed the kind of form or threat with ball in hand he did for ponty. When you saw him for his club it was like watching a different player who oozed class. For Wales he just never did it for me, I wouldnt put him in the top five welsh outside halfs let alone the top world ones despite the kicking record.

Its a strange thing, but my uncle who is an old fashioned curmudgeon and a die-hard England guy to boot, feels Steven Larkham is the greatest he ever saw. He is also a big fan of Phil Bennett and Carlos Spencer. Although, to be fair, he knows Spencer was not the best or greatest, but thought he saw opennings and opportunities which no one else had the vision to see (and he is probably right on that score). He thinks Jonny W had the real rare presence of a winner and that made him great.

Doc
I agree, sure the greats (in the modern game) are the Johnny W's and the Carters,however the one that always impressed as the one to manage and set of his backline was Larkham.

From the player's ive seen over the last 15 years, Dan Carter by a country mile.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Carter for me.

As already mentioned the Lions series in 2005 is the best I have ever seen someone play rugby.

Totally agree with this, the guy has everything and it came together perfectly during that series, especially the second test. I think his running and line breaking ability stand's out the most, he just does it with such ease.

Kiwi I'd say of all his strengths Foxy's passing was his biggest 'contribution' as a player, despite his obvious kicking skills.

He is a rare player that played his school, club, national and international rugby in teams that nearly always won, usually by 'lots' more points than would have meant his kicks decided the match.

But all his teams ran in tries by the bucket load, many through his ability to transfer the forward momentum seamlessly into a running sea of backs.

Ive gone for Carter because, well I have to, I'm a Kiwi. He ticks all the boxes and more.

Its a pity Porta isnt metioned in the top group anymore because like Carter, he could do everything, and with his 70's Pumas team, he had too, often on his own.

Ran with strength and pace, could tackle and a prodigious kicker of the ball. Watched him tour here in the 70's and I couldn't imagine wanting anything else in a 10. One match against Bay of Plenty dropped three goals during the match chased an opposition kick back to his goal line and as the two jumped for the ball headed the ball into touch in true Maradona style with a whip of the head.

Others I thought seem to have succumbed to time are the two great iRISH 10's of the 70's Ollie Campbell and Tony Ward. Highly respected down our way.

From SA Naas Botha, Gerald Bosch- who had this amazing ability to goal kick over 50 m with no more than a 2-3 step run in and kick it at a 90 degree angle- his run in was parallel with the goal line. We used to imitate it as kids. Also a little known De Wet Raas I thought was great. Huge kicker of the ball but because of Naas I believe didn't get a lot of test rugby.

Thanks for taking part folks- looks like Carter with John taking the bench spot most likely. Will try and find time to do a Scrummie one tomorrow, probably will have to wait till Thursday