Clark/Hawkins incident from todays LV cup final

First topic message reminder :

Have a look at the youtube video;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=d_5Vlsyekio

After the whistle has gone, When Clark gets up he bends Hawkins right arm the wrong way. It's being reported that it dislocated his arm. What are your thoughts on it, should Clark be cited and banned?

In my mind it looks deliberate and therefore should see a fairly long ban. What do you guys think?

Cymroglan wrote:No it's not well said at all. You cant try and deflect from this serious incident by saying that somebody else's national side could have caused serious injury.

This lad deliberately broke another players arm and should be severely punished for it.

When I mentioned i wasnt trying to deflect from this. What I was trying to do was point out that this incident should be taken in isolation, not used to tar one club as dirty because of the actions of individuals. Weve seen it before from other clubs and national sides.
To my knowledge saints havent been getting more players carded or cited than other sides ( I may be wrong )

How was I deflecting from what Clark did? I was merely replying to Maestag whose hatred of saints is getting boring by comparing the fact that 2 of saints player have been cited (one for something fairly harmless whilst being against the spirit of the game) to 2 wales players being cited in a similar time for incidents which could have resulted in 2 broken necks. You say that Clark deliberately broke his arm, I agree with this but it is also clear from Davis' tackle that he was going out to seriously injure the O'Ryan.

I am NOT in anyway condoning what Clark did, nor am I trying to deflect from it. This was all in response to one poster who seems to take joy in attacking the club I support whenever he can. I was responding to him to say that Saints on the whole are not a bad club and 2 citings in a season is not ridiculous as shown by his, and your, national teams record.

http://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s99.htm?101,13146057

I am reading the Saints message board and am really disappointed at some of the comments...

Re: Hawkins' arm broken new
Posted by: stoofer (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 19:20

Have to say, the more I see of the incident the less intent I see.

Calum starts wrestling Hawkins arm prior to the whistle going - basically trying to get his arms clear from the ball. I'm not sure there is a punch either, but an effort to grab and wrestle the arm clear, just as any back rower worth his salt would.

A very unfortunate injury, and best of luck for a full and speedy recovery for Hawkins. But it looks an accident to me.


Re: Hawkins' arm broken new
Posted by: walks10 (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 19:54

these discussions on Dyland Callum are ridiculous, there is nothing in either clip that suggests foul play (thats not to say none occurred). there are a lot of assumptions and thoughts on what we think we can say without any foundation. targetting the arms and fingers wrapped round a ball happens 100's of times every saturday afternoon at every level, are some of these actions more vigorous than they need to to, yes of course they are but only to get to the ball. i lost count of the amount of times i had fingers bent back, skin pinched, punched and more within the confines of a maul. there needs to be some perspective and remember this is rugby and therefore people get hurt from time to time. injury is not always as a result of foul play.. both are innocent until proven otherwise for me

Jesus Ozzy that makes for some pretty grim reading

Ozzy are they looking at the same clip as us ?

Really disappointed reading some of the stuff on there. I know we all defend our own players to a certain extent, but when it is as clear cut as this you have to come out and say it is indefensible.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Maest,

The Ashton hair pulling thing was hardly the most appalling case in history was it. London Irish managed to get two guys cited in one day earlier this season for offences in that range.
Wales have played a lot less games than Saints in the last 6 months and managed to get two players banned for serious foul play ( glass houses etc)

This is something quite different. I dont see it a massively relevant that Northampton as a club are dirty cheating are full of dirty cheating poopoo's who incite poor innocent Samons to punch the hell out of them.


Joking aside im not sure their disciplinary record is worse than other clubs, prior to this. This kind of puts them in a special place all on their own.

You are right London Irish also have an appalling disciplinary record.

Cymroglan wrote:Ozzy are they looking at the same clip as us ?

On that link you posted one of the guys mentioned two clips ? I have only seen the one posted on here does the other clip show another angle .

How any Saints fan can defend this is beyond me. The whole incident is sickening. Clark intentionally pulled a man's arm until it broke. He felt it break, then he just got up and walked away. This is worthy of an arrest, never mind a citing.

JmD wrote:How any Saints fan can defend this is beyond me. The whole incident is sickening. Clark intentionally pulled a man's arm until it broke. He felt it break, then he just got up and walked away. This is worthy of an arrest, never mind a citing.

Ashton did the same to George North's leg when he was pinned at a ruck in the HEC.

except, thankfully, Georgie didn't break his leg! Did have to go off injured though at a pretty horrible "clearout".

I have to say I don't think the two incidents a comparable really. One was in play and was reckless. This is a deliberate assault after the whistle had gone.

They are only comparable in that they both involve the bending/pulling of a limb at a very awkward angle.
Neither were nice to see, and both dangerous, but I do agree with you on the differences Ozzy.

Reading the official saints forum, they are choirboys and need to toughen uop when playing evil teams like Leicester.

In general Saints are not a dirty side, certainly not as dirty as Scarlets supporters believe. They have some players who can be petulant and childish (Hartley, Ashton).

This case transcends club issues. IF Clark deliberatley committed an assault that broke Hawkins arm (and irrespective of verdict only he knows the truth) then that is an individual who has committed assault.

Ozzy3213 wrote:I have to say I don't think the two incidents a comparable really. One was in play and was reckless. This is a deliberate assault after the whistle had gone.

Both were after the whistle mate.

Re: Calum cited... new
Posted by: andysaint (IP Logged)
Date: 21 March, 2012 21:11

DH nor CC are overly dirty players. When did they last get banned or yellow/red carded for a non technical foul? It's not like they are Delon armitage or the number 8 at London Irish. It's just a shame they did something bad once and the mud stuck. I'm quite sure the likes of white, tuilagi(s), Corry, grewcock ect... Got pinged for something naughty before.

One comment that made me laugh on the tigers board was one tigers 'fan' emailed the rfu complaining about the CC incident clearly encouraging a citing. Quite frankly that is the most pathetic thing I have read in a while and maybe we should all now petition the rfu to cite tigers players

I'm becoming quite disillusioned with all of this atm



I am really surprised at the line some Saints fans are taking over this, it beggars belief in all honesty.

LT - It is all the off the ball stuff I don't like, I don't see the point in it, and it makes for a bad atmosphere at a match. Saints V Scarlets in the HEC is a perfect example of it, and then add the Ashton challenge on North, and for me they are a team I do not enjoy playing/seeing play.

This latest incident, whilst obviously to the extreme and I highly doubt it is anything the club condones, doesn't make me like the club anymore. I just don't like the attitude they bring to the pitch is all I'm saying.

Ozzy - I've had to stop reading them, I just can't believe how they are looking at the incident.

rugbydreamer wrote:LT - It is all the off the ball stuff I don't like, I don't see the point in it, and it makes for a bad atmosphere at a match. Saints V Scarlets in the HEC is a perfect example of it, and then add the Ashton challenge on North, and for me they are a team I do not enjoy playing/seeing play.

This latest incident, whilst obviously to the extreme and I highly doubt it is anything the club condones, doesn't make me like the club anymore. I just don't like the attitude they bring to the pitch is all I'm saying.

Ozzy - I've had to stop reading them, I just can't believe how they are looking at the incident.

Agreed...!

Well now the process must be allowed to take it's course.

Cockerill can now puff on his Cuban cigar, reflecting on a well orchestrated media campaign,along with the Tigers fans who felt it was their business to e-mail the RFU on the matter.

This one makes me laugh, i don't think MrGrimReaper will make it in a media job if he thinks that was a well orchestrated media campaign!

I understand Hawkins is out of contract at the end of May, I wonder how much he's stressing over that right now?

One way or another, I can see this one ending up in court.

It's vile and nasty.

nathan wrote:

Well now the process must be allowed to take it's course.

Cockerill can now puff on his Cuban cigar, reflecting on a well orchestrated media campaign,along with the Tigers fans who felt it was their business to e-mail the RFU on the matter.

This one makes me laugh, i don't think MrGrimReaper will make it in a media job if he thinks that was a well orchestrated media campaign!

Pretty much bang on nathan. I haven't seen anything in the media about it; until the citing came out anyway. All the stuff I read about it was on forums like this or twitter from rugby fans. As for fans e-mailing the RFU; fair play to them!

It's surreal. I don't know if some of these posters play rugby or not but either way if someone deliberately try to bend their arm into a pretzel shape, they'd be quite annoyed about it I imagine. Why the double standard?

Saints just have a lot of niggly players in their team. Guys who go in for a lot of off the ball stuff, sledging, dodgy shenanigans at the ruck with borderline illegal clear outs and cheap shots.

They are far from alone in that regard of course, but wouldn't be a massive fan. Generally they are ok, best not to overstate it. An incident like this is certainly an outlier. This was genuine thuggery.

I understand Hawkins is out of contract at the end of May, I wonder how much he's stressing over that right now?

He was in contract talks with Tigers and so I would imagine he's likely to get a contract (though it might not be a certainty), Tigers tend to look after their own (see the Matt Hampson campaign) so I doubt they'd abandon him. It may effect the bargaining powers of his agent though so that may lead to a court case if they think it brought on potential loss of earnings.

It is all the off the ball stuff I don't like, I don't see the point in it, and it makes for a bad atmosphere at a match. Saints V Scarlets in the HEC is a perfect example of it, and then add the Ashton challenge on North, and for me they are a team I do not enjoy playing/seeing play.

I watched that game and it wasn't just the Saints who were happy for some off the ball shenanigans. I missed the Ashton on North thing and at the time no one had a clip, did anyone manage to get it? Sadly it's becomming more acceptable for players to drag people out of rucks by their limbs, dump them by taking their legs away and drag them out by head or head guard. That sort of thing needs to be stamped out otherwise injuries will happen.

Sam,

There was a lot of head pulling etc in the England Ireland game form both sides too. What we see is one player cited, quite probably for reacting to that. Had the ref clamped down on it there may not have been a bite.

Id give Clark the benefit of the doubt here and say when he did that he didnt intend to break the arm, simply intimidate and hurt Hawkins. However that goes to show what a dangerous act it is, and why as you say these things need to be clamped down on.
Most eye gouges dont cause any damage, but the 1% that do can have terrible consequences.
Rugby is a tough physical sport full of danger, it doesnt need players doing nasty off the ball things to increase that. There will always be some element of jiggery pokery goign on, but this is an example of someone going way way too far.
His lack of concern at the time or even offring an apology shows the guy lacks class and was more concerened with the potential blowback on him than he was about what hed done, intentional or not.

His lack of concern at the time or even offring an apology shows the guy lacks class and was more concerened with the potential blowback on him than he was about what hed done, intentional or not.

I agree with all that PWS but paricularly the quoted bit. My estimated of Clark would have not dropped so low had he held his hand up immeaditley and called on the physios. Everyone makes mistakes and if he'd done that I may have given him the benefit of the doubt. Running off leaving Hawkins screaming in pain is just low and makes me think he meant it.

How long do you guys think Clark will get as punishment? How much do you believe he should get?

I think it should be the end of his season (only really a month and a half left). Not sure what the precedent is for this sort of thing though. Depends how the RFU disciplinary lot viewthe incident. If they think it brings the sport into a bad light then they could go Attoub style on him but I think it's more likely that they'll just tell him no more competitive rugby until next season (so no England tour either).

Stevens got 3 years for recreational and illegal but non-performance enhancing drug use, if you use that as a benchmark, I think upwards of that is not out of order.

Some may think that's harsh, but I don't. This needs to end right here with this incident.

Of course, what I think and what JB and his fellow commissioners think are totally different.

This leaves me cold and they should hang Clark out to dry for this - what are kids playing rugby at school to think about this if they don't?

It takes very little pressure to pop an elbow and even if he just meant it to intimidate, it's still stone cold thuggery and absolutely equivalent to gouging IMHO. A Dupuy-esque 6 months to sit down and think about what a gomer he's been would be a fair place to start.

I suspect Clark is the kind of guy that isn't brave enough to go down to his local MMA club and get arm barred himself.

maestegmafia wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:LT - It is all the off the ball stuff I don't like, I don't see the point in it, and it makes for a bad atmosphere at a match. Saints V Scarlets in the HEC is a perfect example of it, and then add the Ashton challenge on North, and for me they are a team I do not enjoy playing/seeing play.

This latest incident, whilst obviously to the extreme and I highly doubt it is anything the club condones, doesn't make me like the club anymore. I just don't like the attitude they bring to the pitch is all I'm saying.

Ozzy - I've had to stop reading them, I just can't believe how they are looking at the incident.

Agreed...!

I'd point out that lots of teams do this, as mentioned Scarlets did a lot of this themselves and before that Cardiff Blues engaged in a lot of off the ball things with Saints, one player got banned for it as he decided to have a poke around in Hartleys eyes.

Now i'm not saying it's the right thing for any club to do, but the witch hunt that's gone on from a lot of Welsh fans since those Blues and now Scarlets games is getting a bit tiresome.

Scarlets are by no means angels yappy (no team is!), but generally they do not engage in off the ball niggle/shenanigans. If a team starts on them, then yes they are more then capable of retaliaiting, I will never deny that.

However you take two sides like the Blues and Scarlets who very rarely engage in such activities, and then, after both have played the Saints there's loads of off the ball controversy and bad feeling, is it just coincidence then? Or are Saints the common denominator? I know which one I think.

rugbydreamer wrote:Scarlets are by no means angels yappy (no team is!), but generally they do not engage in off the ball niggle/shenanigans. If a team starts on them, then yes they are more then capable of retaliaiting, I will never deny that.

However you take two sides like the Blues and Scarlets who very rarely engage in such activities, and then, after both have played the Saints there's loads of off the ball controversy and bad feeling, is it just coincidence then? Or are Saints the common denominator? I know which one I think.

Shovey, statistically you sample is too small to reach such a conclusion

Asbo, me thinks you've over done it on the stats my friend

rugbydreamer wrote:Scarlets are by no means angels yappy (no team is!), but generally they do not engage in off the ball niggle/shenanigans. If a team starts on them, then yes they are more then capable of retaliaiting, I will never deny that.

However you take two sides like the Blues and Scarlets who very rarely engage in such activities, and then, after both have played the Saints there's loads of off the ball controversy and bad feeling, is it just coincidence then? Or are Saints the common denominator? I know which one I think.

Yeah funny how theres always controversy every time a welsh team plays an english one isnt it.....

rugbydreamer wrote:Scarlets are by no means angels yappy (no team is!), but generally they do not engage in off the ball niggle/shenanigans. If a team starts on them, then yes they are more then capable of retaliaiting, I will never deny that.

However you take two sides like the Blues and Scarlets who very rarely engage in such activities, and then, after both have played the Saints there's loads of off the ball controversy and bad feeling, is it just coincidence then? Or are Saints the common denominator? I know which one I think.

So you're saying that because Saints are unlikable they deserve the off-the-ball stuff? Surely the whole point of all the sledging is the wind up the opposition to try these tactics? It worked a treat with the Blues. They spent the whole game trying it on the with Saints (with one red card and a citing for CWTEA) and ended up losing at home. If it's that bad then cite them. If it's not then ignore them.

Lets face it if this had happened to a Quins player there would be Welsh people claiming he had a rubber arm

not really. I don't remember there being any off the ball stuff when Scarlets played Leicester last season, never recall any when we've played Bath etc.

I just don't like the feeling Saints bring to the game, just my own personal view, it detracts from the rugby. If they were so confident in their abilities, they shouldn't have to sledge other teams so much and resort to such tactics. And of course, other teams shouldn't retaliate.

Still, this Clark incident is like nothing I've ever seen before, and I in no way feel that it's a reflection of Saints as a club, tis a very extreme case.

PSW - not sure why you're making this into a Welsh v English thing? I was only expressing my opinion of what I've found when my own side has played them, it doesn't matter to me where Saints are from, I just don't like how they play.

The Clark case is completely seperate. He's had form before but hasn't shown it since arriving at Saints. In fact he'd progressed really well (I was certainly changing my opinion of him).

The Ozzy cricket team are infamous for it and they're often one of the best sides in the world. I think Ashton and Hartley seem to be the worst in the Saints for sledging and ones from the league and the others a kiwi. What can you do? Ashton is soon to be gone and Hartley looks to have got his bite back. I can't actually think of any others who try it on (Lawes is often quoted as being a thug but I think he's just a little clumsy some times, only one citing in his carear so far and 4 yellow cards [in 4 seasons]).

Looking at the rest of the team

Tonga'uiha, Waller, Mujati and Doran-Jones. Can't remember seeing them get up to anything.
Day, Manoa, Sorenson....same with them
Wilson, Dowson, Wood, Clark ...other than Clark nothing there either.
Myler, Lamb (chopsy bugger but alright), Dickson, Roberts (another chopsy bugger but alright).....nothing yet
May, Downey, Pisi, Clarke
Cato, Elliott, Armstrong, Foden, Diggin, Artimiev.

I don't get bad vibes off any of these guys. It seems to be just Hartley, Ashton and Clark (even then Hartley seems to have improved in the last couple of seasons, Ashton's got worse)

Not individuals Hammer, jsut the team as a whole, I just don't enjoy watching them play/see my team play them, not even when we were winning up there.

Their fans are all fantastic, just don't like their team or how they go about playing. Tis the same as the Irish rugby side I find, too much focused on off the ball stuff, not enough on just playing the game. Just my opinion and I am sure there are many, many people who disagree with me

Should Calum's ban (if proved) be any shorter than Rob's recovery period?

Another moral maze question.

Portnoy wrote:Should Calum's ban (if proved) be any shorter than Rob's recovery period?

Another moral maze question.

As a Saints fan I would have no problem with that being the minimum
Theres no place in the game for what he did

Portnoy wrote:Should Calum's ban (if proved) be any shorter than Rob's recovery period?

Another moral maze question.

Twice the recovery time would seem fairer but then I'm not sure right now if I even want to see him play again.

As a Leeds man I take a lot of pleasure seeing the products of our academy do well wherever they go to play. Their success is a matter of pride for me. Callum Clark's actions are an affront to everyone who has supported him or had a hand in his development. I am genuinely ashamed to have Carnegie associated with an act of brutality on this scale. It is unlikely that he could redeem himself sufficiently to enjoy that support again.

The next few years are going to be critical in terms of how the sport is perceived by parents and new spectators leading up to the inclusion of 7s in the Olympics. There are some ugly attitudes in the ascendancy in the game as the Pro era develops. It's time to start stamping down hard on on any kind of thuggery and actions that detract from the spirit in which the game has traditionally been played. Sooner or later an increase in violent play and disrespectful behaviour on the pitch will inevitably lead to problems off the pitch and a total reversal of everything I hold good in the game.

Twice the recovery time would seem fairer but then I'm not sure right now if I even want to see him play again

Even as I a Tigers fan I wouldn't want a ban for life. People make mistakes and although, he deserves a hefty ban and fine. I'd hope he came back from them wiser and took the time to see Hawkins and apologise. He has the potential to be an excellent player if he could just avoid doing moronic things like this.

Its being reported this morning that saints have suspended him until further notice. Glad to see the saints distancing themselves from this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17487713

Northampton Saints has conducted an internal investigation regarding an alleged incident during last Sunday's LV= Cup final.
Following the completion of this investigation the club’s management has suspended Calum Clark from playing until further notice.
Northampton Saints will make no further comment about this issue.

From Saints website

They needed to, imagine how it would look if he got into trouble this weekend. He picks up a YC and the citing commission are going to be questioning his temprement. His head might not be in the right place either.

formerly known as Sam wrote:They needed to, imagine how it would look if he got into trouble this weekend. He picks up a YC and the citing commission are going to be questioning his temprement. His head might not be in the right place either.

Surely his head is not in the right place now given what he has done?