Clark/Hawkins incident from todays LV cup final

First topic message reminder :

Have a look at the youtube video;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=d_5Vlsyekio

After the whistle has gone, When Clark gets up he bends Hawkins right arm the wrong way. It's being reported that it dislocated his arm. What are your thoughts on it, should Clark be cited and banned?

In my mind it looks deliberate and therefore should see a fairly long ban. What do you guys think?

on the tigers forum, they say Cockerill went and had a few words with Clark after the match as well, so I'd say he's more than aware of it.

rugbydreamer wrote:on the tigers forum, they say Cockerill went and had a few words with Clark after the match as well, so I'd say he's more than aware of it.

yeah i watched that bit, shook his hand then had a "chat". Cockers looked pretty animated.

Fair enough, but not quite on the Ospreys level is it! I assume it was in repsonse to a direct question since it came from a post match interview.

Very diplomatic comments considering.

LordDowlais wrote:What is it with Northampton and bad dicipline and thugery. They are not doing themselves any favours, the youngsters are probably looking at Ashton, Hartley, Lawes and trying to emulate them, honestly what are they teaching them at this club ?

Tigers are hardly blameless, Tuilagi punching Ashton didn't set a particularly good example either did it.

don't think anyone are saying that Tigers are angels when it comes to discipline, but Saints really are starting to forge a not very nice reputation over the last season or so.

Equo Troiano wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:What is it with Northampton and bad dicipline and thugery. They are not doing themselves any favours, the youngsters are probably looking at Ashton, Hartley, Lawes and trying to emulate them, honestly what are they teaching them at this club ?

Tigers are hardly blameless, Tuilagi punching Ashton didn't set a particularly good example either did it.

Tigers are blameless for this event, nothing was done to provoke him and it was after the whistle. As said above, nobody are saying Tigers are angels.

[quote="nathan"]

Equo Troiano wrote: As said above, nobody are saying Tigers are angles.

Oh I don't know about that.

Portnoy can be obtuse.
PSW is right angled
While my daughters tell me I am acute teddy bear

[quote="LondonTiger"]

nathan wrote:

Equo Troiano wrote: As said above, nobody are saying Tigers are angles.

Oh I don't know about that.

Portnoy can be obtuse.
PSW is right angled
While my daughters tell me I am acute teddy bear

lol, i have no idea what your talking about! i think you made the quote up!

nathan wrote:

MrsP wrote:I think Richard Cockerill referred to it in his post match interview.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17355002

he did indeed, good spot mrsp!

Can't see it anywhere else in the media though.

I think with things like this the media tend to try and avoid saying anything other than the facts just incase it becomes an issue for the police.

Except when they can end Martin Corrys career.

When is the cut off point for him to be cited ?

I thought this incident was quite disgusting but it is interesting to look at this and at something which happened over the states in the NFL. It's another player safety issue, where players got paid for injuring opposition, here is a summary of it that I wrote. http://www.sportpulse.net/content/bounty-gate-story-new-orleans-defence-2998

I'm pretty that as we speak, silent wheels are in motion - just as there will be for any citing evidence of dastardly deeds being perpetrated by England on Ireland on Saturday. There certainly seems to have been something that went on there judging by the reactions

Strange that none of the mainstream media seem to have picked up on this story.

I think there's something going on, i found this funny, no idea if it's true. From Mr Goode;

Heard today Dorian West offered Richard Cockerill out for a car park brawl after a disagreement after yesterday's LV cup final at sixways!!

In response to people asking if it's true and who would win yes our cook at Worcester heard them and Dorian West would win! He's won before!

http://twitter.com/#!/AndyGoode10/status/181778879587942400
http://twitter.com/#!/AndyGoode10/status/181790773799428096

Any Goode gets his gossip off the team cook, what a surprise.....


Sounds like Cockerills been a bit less diplomatic off the record!

And hes bubbled on the cook

lets be honest, food was bound to be involved with andy goode

As a saints fan i feel embarassed that my club is now associated with such an act of blatant violence. I hope the club don't try to defend him.

I rated calum as a player but he has seriously gone down in my estimation. Should not be allowed to drag the club and the game through the mud.

It's a bad day for Saints reputation if Clark faces a ban as Hartley has been cited for biting Ferris...

Of course, Hartley may well be acquited. I remember Pedrie Wannenburg was cited and acquited for biting Hartley actually, and it was similar; Hartley grabbed his head. I think Ferris may have tried to clear him out by the head. Wannenburg got no ban.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXu0GEiDUYc

Mind you, given Hartleys reaction to that he could hardly complain if he got a ban when the tables are turned! But there may not be much in it.

It is only a matter of time before someone comes around the side of a ruck grabbing a head/neck of a defender and doing serious damage or worse.....it happens at every game and should be banned.

Recwatcher wrote:It is only a matter of time before someone comes around the side of a ruck grabbing a head/neck of a defender and doing serious damage or worse.....it happens at every game and should be banned.

Yep. Glas a Du has been very keen on pointing out Ferris is bad at that but there are others. Including Hartley, ironically.

Maybe I'm being too generous to Hartley- after all, he was described as biting Ferris' finger and leaving a mark- but I can see it may be a shortish ban.

What gets me is how stupid players can be knowing full well that there are cameras following their every move.

Well, tbf, the combination of adrenaline, testosterone and heavy physical contact can provoke all kinds of strange and stupid reactions. They aren't thinking about the cameras when they are out there.

Clarks act was nasty- looked premeditated and malicious. I haven't seen any replays of Hartley's alleged offence so can't say much about that, simply don't know what happened.

There isnt a clear replay of the Ferris/Hartley incident, it took place in a pile of players having a cuddle at a ruck. The BBC have already confirmed they have not conclusive footage. You can watch it on iplayer, its about 26 minutes in a couple of phases before Owens awards a penalty..goes on in the corner of the shot.
Someone bit Ferris, who has molesting players on the ground. Exactly how the bite occured isnt known, and how much damage is uncertain ( although ferris did go through the next scrum before getting a kiss better from the physio, there must been some visible mark)

Compared to Clark it was a nothing event even if deliberate rather than reactionary.

Most people would not complain if Hartley only got a one match ban but for the sake of rugby I hope Clark is made a example of.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:There isnt a clear replay of the Ferris/Hartley incident, it took place in a pile of players having a cuddle at a ruck. The BBC have already confirmed they have not conclusive footage.....

Someone bit Ferris, who has molesting players on the ground. .

Because of the first point your second point is pure specualtion

Notch wrote:It's a bad day for Saints reputation if Clark faces a ban as Hartley has been cited for biting Ferris...

Of course, Hartley may well be acquited. I remember Pedrie Wannenburg was cited and acquited for biting Hartley actually, and it was similar; Hartley grabbed his head. I think Ferris may have tried to clear him out by the head. Wannenburg got no ban.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXu0GEiDUYc

Mind you, given Hartleys reaction to that he could hardly complain if he got a ban when the tables are turned! But there may not be much in it.

Are you sure Wannenburg was cited Notch?

I thought he wasn't.

Well according to a Leicester Mercury reporter, the official line from the tigers is that he's suffered a serious arm injury.

Few twitter ramblings that it might go further than the citing process.

and Dylan Hartley has officially been cited.

https://www.606v2.com/t14590-was-wannenburg-cited-for-this

Funny how there seems to be a slight difference in the types of comments (given that Hartley was pulled out of the ruck by his head by Ferris

If fact there are some comments that seem to be suggesting Hartley deserved it for grabbing a player by the head. Does Ferris deserve it for grabbing a player by the head? It certainly seems that biting has gone up in some people's idea of importance

Oh and MrsP, I loved this quote so much I had to bring it out again

Re: Was Wannenburg cited for this?
by MrsP on Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:41 am

I know I shouldn't make light of potentially foul play but Hartley reminded me so much of my kids during that incident.

The one that comes running telling tales is often the chief instigator of the mischief.

Still feel this way or is it different no it's an Ulster player running telling tales?

HammerofThunor wrote:https://www.606v2.com/t14590-was-wannenburg-cited-for-this

Funny how there seems to be a slight difference in the types of comments (given that Hartley was pulled out of the ruck by his head by Ferris

If fact there are some comments that seem to be suggesting Hartley deserved it for grabbing a player by the head. Does Ferris deserve it for grabbing a player by the head? It certainly seems that biting has gone up in some people's idea of importance

Thunor I was just saying earlier that depending on how it goes that actually could be the case. I believe I might have actually been the first poster to refer to that precedent.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:There isnt a clear replay of the Ferris/Hartley incident, it took place in a pile of players having a cuddle at a ruck. The BBC have already confirmed they have not conclusive footage.....

Someone bit Ferris, who has molesting players on the ground. .

Because of the first point your second point is pure specualtion

Well you can see Ferris manhandling people on the ground on the footage both during the ruck and after the ball is well clear, thats what I mean by "molesting". Im willing to speculate that what I saw on the video actually happened as wasnty faked by the CIA.
Now given he had bit marks on his finger and has said he was bitten, Im happy to make the speculation that he was bitten given that evidence.

Exactly when in that period the bite occurred, who by, the exact circumstances, the ferocity of it are the unknowns. But given he had no visible bleeding and was happy ( able ) to take part in the next scrum before treatment ( then after a quick look by the physio continued to play as normal) Im happy to speculate it wasnt as serious as a chap getting his arm dislocated.

If Im wrong on any of that feel free to call me out on it , but ill speculate that wont be an issue.

HammerofThunor wrote:Oh and MrsP, I loved this quote so much I had to bring it out again

Re: Was Wannenburg cited for this?
by MrsP on Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:41 am

I know I shouldn't make light of potentially foul play but Hartley reminded me so much of my kids during that incident.

The one that comes running telling tales is often the chief instigator of the mischief.

Still feel this way or is it different no it's an Ulster player running telling tales?

I'm not so sure Ferris was running telling tales mind you, I think he knew exactly what he was doing. Was it not Rory Best who brought the incident to the attention of Nigel Owens?

Have you watched the incident of Hartley pulling Wannenburg out of the maul?

Hartley forces his arm into Wannenburgs mouth!

It's a bit like kicking someone in the head and then claiming they head butted you in the foot!

If Ferris is proved to have forced his finger into Hartley's mouth then, as I have already said, I would have no sympathy at all! In fact he would go down considerably in my estimation!

Notch - no tis Ferris that goes to tell Owens, before the scrum.

Well I think Ferris does have a tendency to grab the head at times in the ruck situation tbh, and I wish he'd cut it out.

The crux of the matter is whether it can be shown that Hartley moved towards Ferris. For example if Ferris' finger was in Hartley's mouth, well... that's not great for Ferris, he stuck his finger where it had no business and Hartley would be owed an apology. Handshake would sort it out.

But if Ferris hand was elsewhere in the region of Hartleys head and Hartley moves his head towards Ferris' hand to bite down, then Hartley is screwed essentially.

The most important point is that I don't honestly know what happened and I guarantee the small number of people who really do know aren't posting in this thread. So anyone making allegations about Dylan Hartley or even Stephen Ferris would be advised to bear the above in mind.

Notch wrote:Well I think Ferris does have a tendency to grab the head at times in the ruck situation tbh, and I wish he'd cut it out.

The crux of the matter is whether it can be shown that Hartley moved towards Ferris. For example if Ferris' finger was in Hartley's mouth, well... that's not great for Ferris, he stuck his finger where it had no business and Hartley would be owed an apology. Handshake would sort it out.

But if Ferris hand was elsewhere in the region of Hartleys head and Hartley moves his head towards Ferris' hand to bite down, then Hartley is screwed essentially.

The most important point is that I don't honestly know what happened and I guarantee the small number of people who really do know aren't posting in this thread. So anyone making allegations about Dylan Hartley or even Stephen Ferris would be advised to bear the above in mind.

+1

rugbydreamer wrote:Notch - no tis Ferris that goes to tell Owens, before the scrum.

Fair enough. Is he waving his hands around or is he calm and collected? I guess what I'm saying is; does he make a drama/performance out of it? Because I see nothing wrong with a player telling the ref an act of foul play has occured but would be more concerned if he was, say, waving a card.

No,

From what I can see he quietly approaches Owens at the next break in play.

Yeah he just gets up straight away, rushes straight over to Nige, shows him his finger and Nige immediately goes to speak with the two captains.

Yes I've seen the Hartley Wannenburg incident and how I saw it was that Hartley was pulling Wannenburg's head back with a forearm across his face (in front of his mouth). From what I remember (and I'm not going to look again as I don't like the bring real facts into it) is that Wannenburg slightly opens and then closes his jaw. Just a little nip to tell Hartley to let go. No problem with that and I still think, as I posted at the time, that the IRB have to do something about the neck locks used in tackles, rucks and mauls.

And for the record I think most people were against biting in the previous post, although there was a fair bit of Hartley deserved it. Notch in particular (just as I remember his name) was against the biting completely.

But I will say the generally feeling from both posts seem to be different, especially the attitudes to very minor biting (as this one seems to be at the moment).

But as I said before, we'll just have to wait for the report now. Then we can start complaining about the result

Truth is, Thunor, I don't know whether this is minor biting or not. Am therefore reserving judgment.

It could easily be something very minor or it could be something low to mid range. Or it could be the video evidence isn't there and it's between himself and Ferris to know what actually happened and the rest of us can only speculate. Whatever happens think Hartley will be playing again before long.

HammerofThunor wrote:Yes I've seen the Hartley Wannenburg incident and how I saw it was that Hartley was pulling Wannenburg's head back with a forearm across his face (in front of his mouth). From what I remember (and I'm not going to look again as I don't like the bring real facts into it) is that Wannenburg slightly opens and then closes his jaw. Just a little nip to tell Hartley to let go. No problem with that and I still think, as I posted at the time, that the IRB have to do something about the neck locks used in tackles, rucks and mauls.

And for the record I think most people were against biting in the previous post, although there was a fair bit of Hartley deserved it. Notch in particular (just as I remember his name) was against the biting completely.

But I will say the generally feeling from both posts seem to be different, especially the attitudes to very minor biting (as this one seems to be at the moment).

But as I said before, we'll just have to wait for the report now. Then we can start complaining about the result

The difference is whether someone is biting an arm or finger which has been forced into their mouth (Wanneburg on Hartley) which is hardly to be encouraged but i certainly wouldn't feel as strongly about it as I would if a player bit in other circumstances!

Can anyone tell me why we are discussing this on a thread about the incident between Hawkins and Clark?

Video evidence isn't needed to ban someone. Tincu got 18 weeks for contact with the eye area and there was no video evidence (as well as some other dodgy stuff, e.g. Ian Evans lying).

I'm think minor biting doesn't break the skin. Although even a 'minor' bite can cause damage if the bitten article is pulled away in a flinch (if you have cats or younger brothers who are dirty bar stewards you'll know what I mean ).

If Hartley gets done I can see him getting 12+ weeks ban, which would end his season. I can't see him getting a reduction given his record and experience now.

MrsP, I wouldn't say Hartley forced his arm into Wannenburg's mouth but he was pushing against it with his arm.

The reason we're discussing this is because there's nothing to say about Clark until the dirty git he is cited

First time I recall seeing Clark was after he was sent off in the 2008 JWC final with a big smirk on his face. I thought he had cleaned his act up since then and was giving him the benefit of the doubt. I really hope something comes out to show it wasn't deliberate but I can't see it at the moment

Now, this incident with Clark is much more black and white. Unless a different angle shows that Clark was forcing Hawkins arm up to help him avoid being bitten by a rattlesnake or something*, I can't see what could change the view of the incident.

* (which disappears mere milli-seconds later)

Leicester Mercury are saying Hawkins suffered a hyper-extended elbow. They'll also have cockers reaction today.

I dont thing the Wannenberg incident and the Ferris incident are comparable.

In the former Hartley is clearly out of order and got what he deserved. In the later no one really knows and the only fact we have is Ferris was bitten - the rest is speculation.

What I do think is the Clark incident is far far more serious than the Hartley one.
If Hartley gets a longer ban than Clark the disciplinary system is open to ridicule.

Taken from the local paper. Sounds like wheels are in motion then.

"Meanwhile, Tigers director of rugby Richard Cockerill said the club would "trust the RFU citing system" to deal with the 21st-minute incident which saw Hawkins have his elbow hyper-extended in an incident involving Saints back-rower Calum Clark."

that's good to hear Sam, something needs to be done about it.