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Lions 2013 late runners

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pontylad
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Post by hugehandoff Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:57 am

The dust of the 6Ns is still settling and a Lions team today will no doubt be different to that which lines up in the 1st test in June 2013. We have summer tours, autumn internationals and another 6Ns to go. So who will make a case for selection over the next 12 months that is not a current obvious selection and who are you looking forward to seeing perform?

For me it is Morgan who played so well against France and Ireland. I will also be interested to see if Cole and Corbs can replicate the Ireland performance and make a case for selection ahead of Jones and Jenkins. Denton has some work to do to avoid being a dirt tracker, but maybe there are some other names that could really develope in the next 12 months?

Who are they?

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Post by adambarney Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:59 am

i think we could see england front row cause jenkins rees jones get injured to often .plus hopefully may or wade lions lack real pace.

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Post by doctornickolas Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:06 am

I think Cole and Corbisiero have put them selves on the plane were the Lions leaving this week definitely.

Are they above Jones and Jenkins though? Definitely not in my opinion. In the Wales England game the Welsh pack marched the English back towards their line several times in much the same way England did to Ireland yesterday.

I think part of that though is Hartley's fault who I do not rate at all to be honest. He is always the first to pop up whether England are going forward s or backwards, and he is one name I would not like to see on the plane to Oz.So for me they are good back ups at this point but nor starters.

Over the next 12 months I expect to see a lot more of Lloyd Williams at 9 and I think he would thrive out in Oz if selected. I also think Tipuric has a good shout as well. England or Ireland do not have a proper 7 and I think we will need some in Australia. Rennie has done ok for Scotland but not enough yet. He needs to really push on in the next 12 months. For me Warburton and Tipuric are the best two 7's in these island at the moment.

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Post by hugehandoff Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:13 am

Doc...I agree that Jones and Jenkins are currently the best. Plus Rees as current starting hooker. I think there is a good case for Blair and Cusiter at 9 as no one else has put their hand up. I will be interested to see how Lloyd performs.

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Post by bathmad Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:50 pm

Got to be Best as starting hooker surely? Rees couldn't hit a barn door....

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Post by dragonbreath Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:43 pm

bathmad wrote:Got to be Best as starting hooker surely? Rees couldn't hit a barn door....

I take it you were busy on Saturday. Smilers thowing was top class

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Post by doctornickolas Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:50 pm

bathmad wrote:Got to be Best as starting hooker surely? Rees couldn't hit a barn door....

A WUM post no less. He was pinpoint on Saturday.

The Welsh lineout has been pretty darn good this 6 nations.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:52 pm

Farrells putting himslef in line

Early days yet mind. Itll all change over the summer and AIs.

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Post by gowales Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:54 pm

Only when Charteris is playing though...

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Post by bathmad Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:51 pm

doctornickolas wrote:
bathmad wrote:Got to be Best as starting hooker surely? Rees couldn't hit a barn door....

A WUM post no less. He was pinpoint on Saturday.

The Welsh lineout has been pretty darn good this 6 nations.

More to do with return of Wyn Jones/Chateris than Rees. His lineout throwing has been poor for an extended period over the last 2 seasons.

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Post by doctornickolas Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:12 pm

bathmad wrote:
doctornickolas wrote:
bathmad wrote:Got to be Best as starting hooker surely? Rees couldn't hit a barn door....

A WUM post no less. He was pinpoint on Saturday.

The Welsh lineout has been pretty darn good this 6 nations.

More to do with return of Wyn Jones/Chateris than Rees. His lineout throwing has been poor for an extended period over the last 2 seasons.

???

Charteris has only played about 20 mins this championship.

Wyn Jones is not our best lineout guy, that goes to Ian Evans at the moment who has been superb. Rees will be Lions hooker, I put my house on it. Best will be on the bench and hopefully, Hartley will be somewhere else on holiday as he is not Lions standard.

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Post by geoff999rugby Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:12 pm

Actually the Welsh lineout was poor at the start of tournament.

Rees, Best and Ford would tour if selected now.

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Post by belovedfrosties Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:56 pm

doctornickolas wrote:I think Cole and Corbisiero have put them selves on the plane were the Lions leaving this week definitely.

Are they above Jones and Jenkins though? Definitely not in my opinion. In the Wales England game the Welsh pack marched the English back towards their line several times in much the same way England did to Ireland yesterday.

I think part of that though is Hartley's fault who I do not rate at all to be honest. He is always the first to pop up whether England are going forward s or backwards, and he is one name I would not like to see on the plane to Oz.So for me they are good back ups at this point but nor starters.

Over the next 12 months I expect to see a lot more of Lloyd Williams at 9 and I think he would thrive out in Oz if selected. I also think Tipuric has a good shout as well. England or Ireland do not have a proper 7 and I think we will need some in Australia. Rennie has done ok for Scotland but not enough yet. He needs to really push on in the next 12 months. For me Warburton and Tipuric are the best two 7's in these island at the moment.

Yes which is why all the papers the following day were talking about how the Welsh destroyed the english in a scrum in the likes that hadn't been since england did the same to Australia in the 2010 tour, wait whats that? they didn't? Really amuses me how over the top a lot of supporters are going about the welsh scrum in that game. Your pack did have the edge over ours admittedly but please lets not go over board. For me the front row should be Jenkins, Ford/Rees, Cole.

In response to the original post I think that if Care or Youngs get their form back, both are fairly likely to tour with one being a starter. I really don't rate Phillips, poor service and thinks he's far bigger than he is and can just run through defences. Other bolters for me would be hopefully Wade and May as mentioned (real x-factor with Wade) and I would be tempted to say Wood if the backrow wasn't so strong.

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Post by doctornickolas Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:02 pm

Well then I suggest you watch again for the scrums on the English line in the first half when the Welsh pack splintered the English and were walking towards the English line.

After a couple of times we took the penalty kick for some reason rather than do it again. I was screaming at the tv for us to do it again because a penalty try was coming but for some reason we let you off the hook.

And we missed the bloody penalty as well.

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Post by Cumbrian Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:10 pm

I think that the Welsh props will go as first choice with the English props as back up and Ross Ford as hooker. The following tour, I think it will be the English boys. They are currently providing most teams with problems, they are only 23 & 24 and have played with each other less than a dozen times. I think they could be one of the best units in the world once their partnership reaches 30-40 caps+
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Post by 21st Century Schizoid Man Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:13 pm

Did you actually watch Ford on Saturday - he was utter, utter gash at everything !
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Post by Cumbrian Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:14 pm

No I didn't, but I've seen him play well in plenty of other games. OK
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Post by 21st Century Schizoid Man Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:14 pm

Watch Jon Welsh (Glasgow Warriors) over the next year - he may surprise people !
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Post by maestegmafia Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:47 pm

Tuperic as a back up seven. He seems to grow every game. Great lad was brilliant to see him get some Six nations game time.

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Post by belovedfrosties Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:20 am

Pretty sure there was only 1 scrum when wales got a real nudge like what happened in the England game. The scrum stats for the game had each team winning 100% of their own ball and really you know full well that the advantage Wales had in the scrum was nothing compared to the England Ireland game so please stop acting like it was.

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Post by Looseheaded Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:29 am

Cian Healy wont be left behind. I firmly believe that with the passing of Jenkins and Jones in a few seasons time we will see Dan Cole and Cian Healy filling their spots on the Lions tours. Both awesome player and still both young (only 24). Dan Cole has the nouse and ability to do Gethin's ground work, and Cian is just a destructive carrier.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:33 am

"Are they above Jones and Jenkins though? Definitely not in my opinion. In the Wales England game the Welsh pack marched the English back towards their line several times in much the same way England did to Ireland yesterday."

Yea that didn't happen.

Hartley or Best will be Lions hooker, it's one position the Welsh are poor in.

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Post by thomh Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:35 am

Wales did have the advantage at a few first half scrums (not even remotely near what England did to Ireland), but that's hardly enough to draw significant conclusions from. Cole and Jones will be a close battle, I think.

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Post by GavinDragon Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:42 am

ill put my neck out and say barring injuries ken owens will be starting hooker for the lions next year, his throwing is better than rees's and he carries well

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Post by doctornickolas Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:43 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34Bc2OTe_xo

try 23mins in or try 17:30 in for something in the middle of the field. (video time not game time)

But Yea that didn't happen did it?

England may have had dominance over Ireland in the scrum but Wales definitely had dominance over England.

Cole and Corbisiero should make the trip but they are not better than the Welsh props. Hartley is not a good scrummager and should get pinged every scrum as he cant take the pressure and pops up as soon as the shove comes on.

Rees, Best and Ford at the moment for me are the hookers. I don't rate Hartley at all.





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Post by pontylad Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:51 am

The real late runners will be in a years time of course taking Cuthbert as an example there could be someone who has not even played first class rugby yet who could come from left field to get a seat on the plane.

Irelands scrum was pants on Saturday in fact they could have been coached by an Australian so hard to base a front row choice on that .

Australia have their devious ways of combating scrum dominance in any event so those selected probably have to provide a bit extra that is where Gethin scores above others in particular with his flank forward type imitation .

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:53 am

Hartley not a good scrummager????

Hartley was part of the best scrummaging unit in the NH last season at Northampton. They dominated every opponent, marching a USAP scrum back around 20m in the HC semi!

Hartley has his faults but scrummaging isn't one of them. Rees is nowhere near Hartley currently.


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Post by Geordie Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:04 am

Despite his massive army of critics...i actually think hartley is a pretty good hooker..and would be a good selection for the Lions

HOWEVER....

Crucially Hartley could be banned this summer for the SA tour.

IF this is the case we could be left to take the raw youngsters - George, Lindsay or Youngs.

IF one or two of those put in the performances down there that their potential shows...they "could" jump ahead for both England and the Lions...

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:12 am

Are they above Jones and Jenkins though? Definitely not in my opinion. In the Wales England game the Welsh pack marched the English back towards their line several times in much the same way England did to Ireland yesterday

They certainly had the edge but not to the same extent England managed against Ireland. The Welsh props are out in front but that is to be expected as they are at peak age for props with Corbs at 22 and Cole at 24 still developing and improving. Healy may get selected over Corbs as he plays in bigger games because of his team and is more noticeable around the park.

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Post by maestegmafia Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:14 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Hartley not a good scrummager????

Hartley was part of the best scrummaging unit in the NH last season at Northampton. They dominated every opponent, marching a USAP scrum back around 20m in the HC semi!

Hartley has his faults but scrummaging isn't one of them. Rees is nowhere near Hartley currently.

Hartley was playing Tank commander though, he doesnt scrummage well, he always sticks his head up when the pressure hits. Saints dominance in the scrum last year was due to two very good props not their hooker.

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Post by maestegmafia Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:16 am

GavinDragon wrote:ill put my neck out and say barring injuries ken owens will be starting hooker for the lions next year, his throwing is better than rees's and he carries well
That is a big call... Very good player though and he has all the right people around him to make it happen. Just needs a staring slot at the Scarlets.

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Post by belovedfrosties Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:26 pm

Dr Nick, i am not saying that wales didn't have an advantage in the scrums, they definitely did, but it was nowhere near the advantage that england had over ireland. As someone pointed out, Jones and Jenkins are in their peak, Cole and Corbs have an average age of 23, also it was shown throughout that game that Jones was consistently binding illegally on Corbs' arm.

England won plenty of penalties against Ireland on their own feed and on Irelands, Wales won 2 or 3 penalties against England on their own feed and didn't turn over any english ball through scrums.

1 thing I can agree with you on though is that Hartley isn't that good, this is coming from a Saints and England fan. Whilst I'm not sure about the reasons for him popping up, refs appear to aware of it and will always penalise him for it regardless of what else is going on. This is mainly due to the perception that he always pops up that are common on boards like this.

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Post by bedfordwelsh Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:28 pm

If the citing come down against Hartley then he shouldn't be allowed to step foot on a pitch again anyway.

Rory Best is head and shoulders the No1 hooker around at the moment as for rest of front row I am still a bit uncertain over Corbs and whilst A Jones is still one of the best around Cole has impressed me everytime I see him play.
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Post by GavinDragon Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:33 pm

maesteg i know it is a big call but i play hooker so i appreciate a good one when i see one and he didnt put a foot wrong in all the games he played this year and i just think he is going to get better and better,


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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:42 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:If the citing come down against Hartley then he shouldn't be allowed to step foot on a pitch again anyway.

By that logic Warburton wont be going either

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Post by bedfordwelsh Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:45 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:If the citing come down against Hartley then he shouldn't be allowed to step foot on a pitch again anyway.

By that logic Warburton wont be going either

Peter so you are bracketing someone with a previous ban for gouging and another looming threat for biting in the same bracket as a dangerous tackle?

Different but each to their own, anyone who bites or gouges on a rugby field shouldn't be allowed back on it IMO whatever his nationality.
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Post by GavinDragon Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:03 pm

surely that was a WUM?

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:34 pm

No it was a suggestion that players are banned for foul play, then they come back and play again. Bites carry harsher penalties than tackles, if found guilty he will serve a and proportionate ban. Lifetime? Dont be ridiculous, it wasnt even a bad bite. The gouging offence was much worse and much more dangerous, that didnt carry a life ban. Hartley has been bitten and gouged himself in the past .
Even Callum Clark is unlikely to get a life ban, go watch that what he did at the weekend and tell me that a bite that caused almost no damage was worse.
Lets have some sense of proportionality here please.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:19 pm

If the citing come down against Hartley then he shouldn't be allowed to step foot on a pitch again anyway.

The biting incident may be distasteful (in more ways then one drumroll ) but I agree with PWS there was no blood drawn and no obvious injury. If Hartley is found guilty and it wasn't a case of hands around face then a few weeks is probably about right (4 to 6), if hand is over his face then no ban or a 1 weeker will suffice. If he'd nearly taken Ferris's finger off I'd be in complete agreement about the never playing again but but let's calm it down a tad until we know what went on. As PWS says there was a lot worse that happened at the weekend.

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Post by alcoombe Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:59 pm

doctornickolas wrote:Hartley is not a good scrummager and should get pinged every scrum as he cant take the pressure and pops up as soon as the shove comes on.

'Popping up' isn't itself actually a penalty offense. If a hooker is penalised when his head pops up it will be because he has driven his opponent up or has lost his binding in doing so. The laws under 20.8 give full details on the matter.

Hartley mostly stands up when his scrum are dominating and going forward and it's then that you could look at penalising him for forcing his opponent up, but the opposition has usually already infringed by then.

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