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Controversial Endings

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Post by Guest Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:52 am

Chris Eubank’s ’91 bout with Dan Sherry ended in a rather peculiar way. With just over a minute remaining in the tenth, Eubank delivers a reverse headbutt to his opponent’s face and Sherry is unable to continue. Despite having two points deducted, Chris wins by a technical decision. The headbutt itself is blatantly intentional, so Eubank was lucky to avoid disqualification.

In some ways this echoes Duran’s lucky escape against Buchanan, when a low blow incapacitated the Scottish fighter. Ken felt the full force of those hands of stone and, like Sherry, was unable to fight on - losing his title in the process.

So, what other strange endings to title (or non-title) fights can you think of, and was the winner lucky to avoid disqualification?

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Post by ShahenshahG Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:04 am

Dont think durans one counts, because he was beating the Poopie out of buchanan and also some think the referee caused it to be a low blow by pulling on his arm when he tried to bear hug him. Thats neither here nor there.

The obvious one is Taylor vs Chavez, less than 20 seconds to go he gets decked and gets up, referee ends it with two seconds to go. I think in hindsight it looks much much worse than it is, now I would have let it go on, If I was there I probably would have stopped it.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:10 am

The only reason there is controversy surrounding the Taylor stoppage is because there were only two seconds left, had it happened at any other time in the fight it's a perfectly legitimate stoppage, he was in no fit state to continue.

Hopkins originally being ruled to have been knocked out by Dawson was ridiculous, it was a clear foul which should have been a disqualification, how the referee could get it so wrong is beyond me.

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Post by ShahenshahG Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:44 am

Didnt bowe hit somebody while he was down and instead of disqualification he got a no contest.

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Post by WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:26 am

Kirkland vs Molina?

Molina was in the lead but was DQ'd when his corner jumps in the ring before the count was finished despite the round ending

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Post by 88Chris05 Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:05 am

When Merqui Sosa boxed 'Prince' Charles Williams in 1995, in the latter stages (can't remember which round exactly) the ringside doctor decided they'd both taken too much punishment to continue, and the bout was declared a technical draw.

In 1912, Ad Wolgast was defending his Lightweight title against Joe Rivers. Both men landed strong punches in the thirteenth round and went down. Once the referee began the count, it became clear that neither man would beat it - so he picked Wolgast up over his shoulder and counted Rivers out. Wolgast was allowed to keep his title and the win on his record.

My favourite has to be George Bernard, when he challenged for Billy Papke's world Middleweight title. He actually fell asleep on his stool between the sixth and seventh rounds and the bout was hence ruled as a TKO in Papke's favour. Bernard claimed later on that he'd been drugged.

One case that I found incredible upon discovering it was the fight between Eddie Woods and Al Milone in 1959. With both fighters too badly cut to continue, the result was recorded as a stoppage loss against both men!
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Post by drsambo1928 Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:44 am

Although no where near the other controversial fights, Vitali v lewis and Mayweather v Ortiz. And then there was McCall v Lewis when he just stopped fighting.

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Post by Nico the gman Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:28 pm

Jim Watt v Sean O'Grady,Watt was getting well beat and decided to stick the Glasgow kiss on O'Grady,blood poured down O'Grady's face into his eyes blinding him,the fight was stopped in Watts favour.

A blatant headbutt nothing accidental about it.

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Post by Lance Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:12 am

the doctor waiting until khan could be awarded victory before deciding barreras cut was bad enough was pretty blatant.

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Post by Super D Boon Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:38 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:The only reason there is controversy surrounding the Taylor stoppage is because there were only two seconds left, had it happened at any other time in the fight it's a perfectly legitimate stoppage, he was in no fit state to continue.

Hopkins originally being ruled to have been knocked out by Dawson was ridiculous, it was a clear foul which should have been a disqualification, how the referee could get it so wrong is beyond me.

This wasn't a disqualification for me. Dawson chucked Hopkins after he was leaned on, a fair result was a NC but at the time I was hoping they would go along with the Dawson TKO as I felt Hopkins was trying his best to get a DQ win and rip the public off the way he normally dopes with his shower of sh** performances.

If we're looking for more controversial endings then there must be bucket loads in Germany, mostly involving Sven Ottke. In the days before all the various internet streams available the Germans pretty much operated in a microcosm where they cheated mercilessly without anyone really knowing. The Green v Beyer fights are a highlight where Green is disqualified for nearly knocking out his opponent through punching him.

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Post by 88Chris05 Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:35 pm

The Michalczewski-Rocchigiani disqualification was pretty dubious, to say the least.
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Post by Imperial Ghosty Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:39 pm

88Chris05 wrote:The Michalczewski-Rocchigiani disqualification was pretty dubious, to say the least.

Even a German get screwed in Germany, much as I loved Michalczewski he deserved an oscar for his performance in that fight.

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Post by bellchees Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:03 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:
88Chris05 wrote:The Michalczewski-Rocchigiani disqualification was pretty dubious, to say the least.

Even a German get screwed in Germany, much as I loved Michalczewski he deserved an oscar for his performance in that fight.

I think that was badly handled by the referee. Instead of counting him out he should have been telling him to take a minute to recover. It was a hurtful shot and after the referee called break but even with Michalczewski's extreme over acting he could have gotten him to a corner stool for a few minutes and took a point off Rocchigiani.

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Post by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:27 pm

Kirkland v Molina a couple of weeks ago was a strange one. I'm still not really sure what the reason was for his DQ.
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Post by Seanusarrilius Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:59 am

I think the reason was thus: they wanted Kirkland to win.

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Post by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:13 am

That sounds about right. Apparently GBP were lining up Paul Williams for June or July but Kirkland has an injury so its not happening.
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Post by manos de piedra Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:35 am

ShahenshahG wrote:Dont think durans one counts, because he was beating the Poopie out of buchanan and also some think the referee caused it to be a low blow by pulling on his arm when he tried to bear hug him. Thats neither here nor there.

The obvious one is Taylor vs Chavez, less than 20 seconds to go he gets decked and gets up, referee ends it with two seconds to go. I think in hindsight it looks much much worse than it is, now I would have let it go on, If I was there I probably would have stopped it.

I agree. By the letter of the law I think Duran should really have been DQ'd. It was a clear foul, after the bell. However it would have led to an equally unsatisfying outcome where the clearly inferior man on the night won. I know Buchanan always maintained the low blow was agonising and I wouldnt dispute it to much but I also cant help wonder if he didnt realise that it was a way out of the fight and possibly a chance to retain his title and thus exagerrated its effect. It was a clear foul but was it enough to render him unable to continue?

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Post by ShahenshahG Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:53 am

I heard somewhere once that it looked like Duran was going to hit the body then the reg jumped on him causing his aim to go off and whack him in the balls, then the ref claiming legitimate body shot to save himself some embarrasment but I cant back it up so if anyone can confirm/deny please do.

I've always thought it was genuine manos, because it looks like Buchanan sees the ref coming in and makes the mistake of relaxing too soon. His head goes up and then he drops. SO it hurt because it was unexpected, although now you point it out, it does look a bit of a late reaction but that might be because i was looking for it. I still think its genuine but I'd forgotten about Buchanan kilt swing from the left to the right hahaha.

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Post by manos de piedra Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:07 am

I think the pain was genuine, no doubt about that. But he had the full rest between rounds to recover. Its hard to know, but how many times did Bowe get walloped in the family jewels by Golota and continued for instance? Its unusual for a fighter to be unable to continue after one low shot, even if its genuine. I guess its the circumstances that make me question. Buchanan was getting beaten up in there and the fight was basically beyond salvage. He was given a legitimate but in some ways handy lifeline to perhaps either retain his title or maybe get a rematch ordered after. Im just not convinced the low shot was sufficient to render him incapable of continuing.

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Post by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:19 am

Manos it ruptured his left testicle and he still has pain in it today.
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Post by Imperial Ghosty Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:20 am

Wasn't it entirely the decision of the referee to stop the fight in favour of Duran, I may be wrong Manos but it does seem that you're effectively accusing Buchanan of quitting.

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Post by manos de piedra Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:26 am

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:Manos it ruptured his left testicle and he still has pain in it today.

Ok well in that case I stand corrected.

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Post by 88Chris05 Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:42 am

I've gone back and forth in my own head with regards to the Taylor-Chavez I stoppage more times than I could count, to be honest.

The whole situation would be a lot clearer and easier to decipher had Steele actually shown some consistency throughout his refereeing career. Deciding that a man has had enough and that he'd be continuing at a great risk to his health is, of course, all well and good, but I didn't see such values being displayed by Steele when he gave a clearly beaten and totally out on his feet Hearns the benefit of the doubt when Barkley cleaned his clock a couple of years previously, for instance.

I just can't quite shake the feeling that Steele seemed in an awful rush to count Taylor out or stop it; the movement of the camera in the corner makes it hard to tell whether or not Taylor gave any nod of the head (he claims he did, albeit a small on) or any kind of reply to Steele's questions, but let's not forget that right behind Taylor's head, Steele must surely have been aware of the red light flashing on the ring post, indicating that there were ten seconds or less left in the fight.

Nor can I totally ignore the links which invariably tend to exist between one of Steele's trademark erratic decisions and a certain Mr King.

Now I'll stress, this isn't a 'Taylor was robbed' post, far from it. On the outset, Taylor was clearly in a bad way, and Steele was well within his rights to stop it. But I do believe there are certain circumstances which prevent this from being a clear cut case. I suspect I'll never fall one hundred percent on either side of the line.
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Post by EdWoodjr Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:52 am

If I remember right Witherspoon hit Bruno when Bruno was down in the corner at the end of their '86 title fight. The Tyson/Williams stoppage from '89 was a ridiculous decision. Tyson/Ruddock (1991) wasn't much better.

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Post by Super D Boon Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:55 am

bellchees wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:
88Chris05 wrote:The Michalczewski-Rocchigiani disqualification was pretty dubious, to say the least.

Even a German get screwed in Germany, much as I loved Michalczewski he deserved an oscar for his performance in that fight.

I think that was badly handled by the referee. Instead of counting him out he should have been telling him to take a minute to recover. It was a hurtful shot and after the referee called break but even with Michalczewski's extreme over acting he could have gotten him to a corner stool for a few minutes and took a point off Rocchigiani.

Wait, no Roccigiani literally tapped him on the break and Dariusz went down like he was whacked by a girder. Diabolical over acting as DM was being beaten in the fight and was looking for a way out.

IG - You loved Michalczewski?! That does surprise me.

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Post by manos de piedra Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:56 am

I cant really make my mind up on the Chavez/Taylor fight either. I can see both arguments but struggle to favour either one with any real conviction. I think in the most technical sense and by the book, it was a correct stoppage. Less than ten seconds remaining is more than enough time to do damage to an unprotected fighter. Im reminded of the Bowe/Holyfield 3rd fight where Cortez more or less ushered an clearly out of it Holyfield back into the fight when he was dead on his feet. Or the Maccarinelli/Frenkel fight which was also seriously dangerous. Both of those took less than 10 seconds for the opponent to flatten the unprotected fighter. With that in mind I think its more difficult to argue against the stoppage than in favour of it.

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Post by Super D Boon Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:02 am

I think that the Taylor/Chavez fight was a fair stoppage. I don't think the ref can make allowances for the time that is left in the fight. The fact is, Meldrick was asked if he was okay and he didn't respond, his eyes were all over the place and he was clearly out of it. The fact there was so little time left is irrelevant.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:18 am

Dariusz is the only german based fighter i've ever liked, gets unfairly labelled alongside Ottke when he was in fact a very good fighter.

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Post by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:24 am

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Dariusz is the only german based fighter i've ever liked, gets unfairly labelled alongside Ottke when he was in fact a very good fighter.

Were you never a fan of Abraham at 160lbs he was good to watch.
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Post by Super D Boon Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:49 am

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:Dariusz is the only german based fighter i've ever liked, gets unfairly labelled alongside Ottke when he was in fact a very good fighter.

Were you never a fan of Abraham at 160lbs he was good to watch.

No really fair though is it, a prime and honed athlete beating up someone's gardener?

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Post by d260005p Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:27 pm

Id say Mayweather vs Ortiz was a weird one. Ortiz should have been DQ'd for his "im peed off" raging flying headbutt on Mayweather, but then un sportingly, Mawyeather (thanks to the referee) got 2 free shots on the chin ...........and as he stated........."Left hook, right hand, Thats all she wrote".

Classic

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Post by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:41 pm

How was Mayweather unsporting? He just got head butted ffs!
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Post by BoxingFan88 Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:10 am

I'm sure there are other boxers who would have done far worse to Ortiz, had he headbutted them.

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Post by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:27 am

Personally if someone headbutted me regardless if we were boxing or not I would be very likely to bite a chunk out of his nose.
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Post by 88Chris05 Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:36 am

Have to admit, I've never understood why Mayweather came under such intense criticism from some parties. The overreaction was alarming. Mind you, when it comes to Mayweather rational responses are a little too much to expect from certain quarters. Particularly when you have Merchant needlessly ramming the point home once it's already been addressed.

Mayweather did nothing outside of the rules. Ortiz, on the other hand, did. And yet somehow, Mayweather became the villain of the piece!
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Post by ShahenshahG Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:56 am

Agreed, thought it was rather restrained not to sucker punch him the first time Laugh He must feel like Alan davies at anfield sometimes.

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Post by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:00 am

88Chris05 wrote:Have to admit, I've never understood why Mayweather came under such intense criticism from some parties. The overreaction was alarming. Mind you, when it comes to Mayweather rational responses are a little too much to expect from certain quarters. Particularly when you have Merchant needlessly ramming the point home once it's already been addressed.

Mayweather did nothing outside of the rules. Ortiz, on the other hand, did. And yet somehow, Mayweather became the villain of the piece!

Chris I was on the chatbox on this site that night and everyone was slating Floyd guys who know there boxing as well. I was getting stick for sticking up for him because I was PBK I got called a Floyd nuthugger. He did nothing wrong and Merchant is just an old muppet.
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Post by Lance Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:03 am

under normal circumstances mayweather would have been cowardly to do what he did, but after ortiz had headbutted him i think he was perfectly within his rights to do it. ortiz knew it too. shame the fight ended how it did, but it was ortiz to blame not mayweather. different story with mccloskey though, he cheap shotted lauri on the break, cos hes rubbish and saw his chance to end a fight he was struggling in. that was awful behaviour from an awful fighter and not to be excused as the sky team tried to.

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Post by Rowley Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:05 am

My view on the Floyd fight has not changed since I first watched it, it was pretty unsporting and you could argue opportunistic but for me Ortiz had waived any rights to sportsmanship the minute he used his head, for me that was an almost unspoken acknowledgement of the type of fight Ortiz wanted, nobody can bleat about Floyd doing what he did, particularly as they had both been told to fight on.

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Post by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:06 am

Even without the headbutt Floyd would have been well within his rights to do what he did. Ortiz wasn't watching his opponents and had his hands down by his side hew wasn't in there with some kid who was still wet behind the ears he was in their with the best of his generation. Any great of any era would have done the same regardless if they had been headbutted or not.
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Post by Union Cane Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:25 am

Basilio Fullmer II was quite a controversial ending, certainly in the eyes of Carmen as he went absolutely loopy and nearly ended up letting the ref have one.

He was way down on the cards though, so perhaps it isn't all that controversial.

And a similar thing had happened in the first fight.
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Post by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:28 am

Quigg vs Arthur last month. The ref should never have stopped it. Arthur turned his back but he had turned back round and was protecting himself. Typical British ref jumped in far to soon.
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Post by d260005p Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:42 am

Just a note, my post earlier on regarding to Mayweathers "unsporting" actions was just used out of context. I think he had every right to do what he did, but i was writing it from a ringside perspective of Mayweather haters. Based on the boos at ringside. I think that if someone headbutted me, i would have drop kicked him in the face whether i was told to box on or not.........ESPECIALLY if they guy tried to kiss me 20 times

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Post by manos de piedra Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:58 am

Cortez has to carry a portion of the blame for the Ortiz/Mayweather fight. I didnt think his instructions or actions were clear at all. Im not surprised Ortiz was confused.

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Post by 88Chris05 Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:10 am

As a separate one to throw in to the ring (ba-da-boom), Weaver-Dokes I must rank as one of the most shocking and controversial stoppages in Heavyweight history. Weaver was clearly in no great trouble there, just sixty seconds in to the fight.
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Post by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:12 am

Ali v Liston II. Enough said really.
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Post by milkyboy Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:35 am

just chucking in my perspective on chavez taylor... i also have splinters a bit on this one. This isn't a right or wrong question, but if a guy has beaten the count in the 12th round of a world title fight he was clearly winning, how many refs would actually stop him (straight away) at any time in the round, regardless of the last few seconds, without being given a chance to see the final bell?

I remember watching the mcrory curry fight, (obviously this was the 2nd round!) and seeing that milt was gone, i was screaming at the ref (well, the tv) to stop it after the first knockdown, as curry walked in and helped himself to a free punch. Sometimes, you know a guy is finished, and what is coming... and 2 seconds is enough. I also remembering screaming at the ref to stop the eubank watson fight, when watson walked out for the 12th and clearly could hardly walk, so i can totally accept that if the guy can't defend himself, then obviously safety should come first. But in reality it never really does in circumstances like chavez taylor does it? Can anyone think of another stoppage like that?

The more common scenario is Taylor Froch... taylor barely beats the count, but was given a chance to see of he could hang on, with a ref ready to leap in. No 2 circumstances are the same, and if steele says he got no response from taylor, then he's within his rights... like i say, i have mixed opinions on it. The real criminal that night was lou duva... if taylor had kermit or miss piggy in his corner he'd have got on his bike and won the fight, but unfortunately for him, he had the wrong muppet.

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Post by ShahenshahG Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:14 am

Made the point before that duva is less in control of pivotal moments than any manager

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