Tour Captain Choices of the Home Nations

First topic message reminder :

Lets look at who the board rate as the best possible tour captain for the Lions next year.

Pick Who you recommend as being the tour captain from the Poll below.

Another point against Warburton is this.

He will be up against Australias best player and will have his hands more than full already.

IF he were to lose that individual battle against Pocock that would be a psychological blow to the Lions and a boost to Australia.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

roddersm wrote:I think the Irish mafia comment was completely uncalled for.

I have edited my post. It was not intended to offend.

Nay bother, sorry for taking offence. Have a on me

SecretFly wrote:The fitness program is not overhyped - the fitness program is ignored, sidetracked, smothered, evaded etc, etc, etc.

The fitness program allows the Welsh players to play the game they always want to play but didn't have the endurance levels to sustain. I've been watching rugby a long time and I know when fitness levels are having an impact in helping the body to do what the mind always wanted to do but didn't have the puff to support it.

Methods AND fitness. Ireland is so-so fitness and no method.

In my opinion the fitness and condition of the Welsh has very little to do with their ascendancy in world rugby. All top 8 teams have very professional and balances regimes. Big deal if Wales went to Poland prior to the ’11 WC Ireland have been going there for years. SA seem to have secret training camps prior to every WC (Rustenburg this time I think). It’s nothing new. There were countless videos of NZ and their revolutionary strength and conditioning regimes prior to the 07’WC and Ireland also had one of their most gruelling pre WC camps. This was later seen as a reason why they failed in France. They were wrecked.
 
I really don’t think the Welsh training camps are as relevant as other factors such as attitude, personnel, youth, captaincy and their current backrow in their status as NH champions.  In 07’leading up to the WC their players such as Powell, Henson, Byrne etc. made as many headlines off the field as on it. There was a superstar celeb mentality and no backbone. They had an aging squad. They had no clear leader. Ryan Jones is not a great captain and possible over rated as a player. By comparison their team is now built around quality young players with very professional attitudes. Warburton is a very professional, focused, talented, brilliant captain and one of the best 7s in the world. In the back row they also have man of the 6N Lydiate and the best 8 they have had in years in Faletau. A great back row is key to having a great team.
 
Fitness and conditioning is important of course but the Welsh aren’t doing anything that other teams don’t do. You can train and lift weights till the cows come home but that doesn't guarantee you will be as big and strong as north or be able to kick goals as far out as Halfpenny. They do however, have an influx of quality players, a great captain and backrow and much improved attitude.

I think a lot of present attitude about player worth is coming off the back of six or seven months of evidence.

I think history often dictates that one season isn't any yardstick to write any poetry on

Players go down and they go up in form. One player's down is therefore often another player's 'up' - as the 'up' is relative when meeting a player who is having some 'down' time.
Also, players can do an up for a season and then disappear from the 'Up' chart for a lifetime. I know choices are just fun but why don't we just wait for the Summer season of fun and games

I can't help but think people are underestimating the Aussies, hopefully this over confidence will be put to bed after the summer tour.

Isn't it true that Ireland don't actually have a conditioning coach?

They don't have a coach either.

leinsterbaby wrote:

SecretFly wrote:The fitness program is not overhyped - the fitness program is ignored, sidetracked, smothered, evaded etc, etc, etc.

The fitness program allows the Welsh players to play the game they always want to play but didn't have the endurance levels to sustain. I've been watching rugby a long time and I know when fitness levels are having an impact in helping the body to do what the mind always wanted to do but didn't have the puff to support it.

Methods AND fitness. Ireland is so-so fitness and no method.

In my opinion the fitness and condition of the Welsh has very little to do with their ascendancy in world rugby. All top 8 teams have very professional and balances regimes. Big deal if Wales went to Poland prior to the ’11 WC Ireland have been going there for years. SA seem to have secret training camps prior to every WC (Rustenburg this time I think). It’s nothing new. There were countless videos of NZ and their revolutionary strength and conditioning regimes prior to the 07’WC and Ireland also had one of their most gruelling pre WC camps. This was later seen as a reason why they failed in France. They were wrecked.
 
I really don’t think the Welsh training camps are as relevant as other factors such as attitude, personnel, youth, captaincy and their current backrow in their status as NH champions.  In 07’leading up to the WC their players such as Powell, Henson, Byrne etc. made as many headlines off the field as on it. There was a superstar celeb mentality and no backbone. They had an aging squad. They had no clear leader. Ryan Jones is not a great captain and possible over rated as a player. By comparison their team is now built around quality young players with very professional attitudes. Warburton is a very professional, focused, talented, brilliant captain and one of the best 7s in the world. In the back row they also have man of the 6N Lydiate and the best 8 they have had in years in Faletau. A great back row is key to having a great team.
 
Fitness and conditioning is important of course but the Welsh aren’t doing anything that other teams don’t do. You can train and lift weights till the cows come home but that doesn't guarantee you will be as big and strong as north or be able to kick goals as far out as Halfpenny. They do however, have an influx of quality players, a great captain and backrow and much improved attitude.

We'll have to agree to disagree, Leinsterbaby . But when I say fitness I never mean 'weights'.

Well that is definitely true

All the more Rodders to select a captain that can rally the forwards. Do you honestly think that the Lions can go head to head with the Aussie backline? If all fit, they have the most dangerous backs in world rugby. Your best chance of success is heaving your way up the middle and breaking their defensive line and then releasing the ball out to the backs.

As much as people write off the Aussie forwards, it´s not as simple as shoving them back. You have to play well to dominate them up front. So you need a talisman leader who can get the best out of them. The tests in SA, Australia and NZ for England, Wales and Ireland should put up the hand of one of the names mentioned.

HERSH wrote:They don't have a coach either.

+ 1......

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Isn't it true that Ireland don't actually have a conditioning coach?

Think it's Philip Morrow

Kia I take it as a granted that our pack will front up. I don't think the captain needs to be in the forwards for that. O'Connell or Warburton or Ford or whoever will lead the pack regardless off who wears the armband.

The captain needs to be the figure head and the person who makes the key tactical descisions, someone with a cool head and who reads the game.

I was going to mention Rob Kearney but I'm on thin ice with FES....

There will be a lot of natural leaders in the pack. No question. But I still think you need the captain in the engine room. If BOD playes, let him direct the backs as backline general but if the chips are down on the goal line, let the captain be some mug of a forward who can make a Henry V speech to get the forwards going. They dictate the play. If you don't win up front, you invariably lose. Think of all the successful captains and how many are backs? That is my humble opinion.

leinsterbaby wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Isn't it true that Ireland don't actually have a conditioning coach?

Think it's Philip Morrow

Saracens.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Think of all the successful captains and how many are backs?

I'm struggling to think of the successful captains full stop......

roddersm wrote:

HERSH wrote:They don't have a coach either.

+ 1......

He needs to go. He is too munster orientated. Three young players broke into the team this year. All three Murray, Ryan and POM are from munster while quality youngsters such as Madigan, OMalley, Kearney, cave, Gilroy, Spence, Henry etc. are consistantly overlooked. If he doesn't select Ian Madigan to go to NZ he should be axed.

Granted POM and Ryan have taken their chances and impressed but Murray should never have been picked ahead of on fire Reddan.

Haha rodders. Not just the Lions. Captains of any team. Most seem to be in the engine room. The likes of BOD are exceptions and I´ll stir the pot even more and claim that BOD would be better off without the burden of captaincy and this has been the case for a while. I´m off to seek cover but it´s truly what I believe.

Blasphemy! .....

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Haha rodders. Not just the Lions. Captains of any team. Most seem to be in the engine room. The likes of BOD are exceptions and I´ll stir the pot even more and claim that BOD would be better off without the burden of captaincy and this has been the case for a while. I´m off to seek cover but it´s truly what I believe.

In '09 he won a grand slam as captain and was shortlisted for world player of the year. Ireland were unbeaten that year and BOD was probably Irelands best player. Though I do agree with you to a certain extent. The real test of his captaincy ability would have been the lions tour to NZ but sadly he never got a chance to show how good he was there.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Haha rodders. Not just the Lions. Captains of any team. Most seem to be in the engine room. The likes of BOD are exceptions and I´ll stir the pot even more and claim that BOD would be better off without the burden of captaincy and this has been the case for a while. I´m off to seek cover but it´s truly what I believe.

How right you are.

I've been saying it for a while, he doesn't need Captaincy as he prefers to lead by example rather than in nurturing, guiding or talking to underlings. An individualist.

I´m not denying his obvious talents as a player or a captain. The 2005 event was most unfortunate and made worse by the lack of punishment to Mealamu and Umaga. No argument from me there either.

But I think that in the last years Ireland has been unable to find a replacement at outside centre because BOD was captain as you can't substitute your captain off. McCaw is similar and only throyugh injury have we discovered alternatives.

The coach can't sub BOD because he's the most famous man in Ireland, not because he's captain!

I agree and disagree.

I think you only realise how influential BOD is as captain when he's out. O'Connell is a great number 2 for Ireland but like Gordon Brown he's not suited to the top job and just like he and Blair..or Cowan and Ahern they need each other.....

roddersm wrote:I was going to mention Rob Kearney but I'm on thin ice with FES....

Don't think Kearney is guaranteed to start at fullback for the Lions, not with Geordan Murphy and Felix Jones to contend with

I think Felix will need more than a whistle to get him on the plane....

funnyExiledScot wrote:

roddersm wrote:I was going to mention Rob Kearney but I'm on thin ice with FES....

Don't think Kearney is guaranteed to start at fullback for the Lions, not with Geordan Murphy and Felix Jones to contend with

nice one fes!

leinsterbaby wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:Never looked great as int'l captain might I add. Hasn't won any meaningful games when leading Ireland. Looked out of sorts when leading the Lions in 09. It takes more than talking straight in the changing rooms to be a good skipper, it takes leadership on the field also.

I have my reservations about OConnell I must say too. Some people like to blame ROG for the second test loss to SA. I reckon OConnell should shoulder more blame. Lions were in control in that game, in the lead and motoring. I feel that a good captain would have steadied the ship and ground it out. POC looked flustered every time the camera was on him. A bit like Ireland v Wales this year.

Having said that POC is still a good captain and will have benefitted from captaining the lions before. I think Warburton has the right attitude and temperament to be captain as does BOD. I reckon that Warburton knows Gatland well and he is a forward will swing it in his favour.

Ah here now about the 2nd test. The number of injuries in that game (including BOD)! Crickey, no one would have O'Gara as a centre.

Warburton gets an awful lot of praise for Wales, but facts are they won a Grand Slam without him.

Not sure that that statement is as accurate as it could be!

Which team Captain in Britain and Ireland went furthest in WC and captained a side to a Grand Slam?
I am not a huge fan of stats but these must count for something.
The fact that Warbs is a thoroughly good bloke who is lucid and coherent aint too tragic given the duties of the role.

Meh, he only went 18 minutes further.

That'll do!

Has Warburton really stood out as a great captain or just been captain of a team that is performing? Evidence either way?

In terms of captaining a Grand Slam winning side, wasn't he on the pitch for less than half their games (1 whole and 2 halves)?

Perhaps a more salient point is whether the role of captain is particularly important? It seems the captain of a great team somehow automatically becomes a great captain. Not always easy to see which way round it is.

A good captain doesn't get a red card in a world cup semi final by performing a spear tackle. In fact, if Bradley Davies tours we could end up with two red cards.

Could be a liability for the Lions.

sugarNspikes wrote:A good captain doesn't get a red card in a world cup semi final by performing a spear tackle. In fact, if Bradley Davies tours we could end up with two red cards.

Could be a liability for the Lions.

Terrible WUM, 1/10. Try harder.

A great captain needs to lead by example and know how to motivate his team. Personally after thinking hard about it, I think the only person who is pretty nailed on to start is Sexton, he's comfortably the top 10 in the NH right now and leads fantastically. Listening to all the Leinster boys praise his half time speech at the HC final last year means that for me maybe he could be strong contender for B&IL captain.

sugarNspikes wrote:A good captain doesn't get a red card in a world cup semi final by performing a spear tackle. In fact, if Bradley Davies tours we could end up with two red cards.

Could be a liability for the Lions.

Please try to think of something to write about that isnt just having a dig at the Welsh, Welsh rugby, a Welsh club or player... Your attempts to upset and annoy Welsh posters are boring, repetitive and pathetic... You have been on hear two weeks and that is all you have contributed.

Scoped wrote:
Terrible WUM, 1/10. Try harder.

A great captain needs to lead by example and know how to motivate his team. Personally after thinking hard about it, I think the only person who is pretty nailed on to start is Sexton, he's comfortably the top 10 in the NH right now and leads fantastically. Listening to all the Leinster boys praise his half time speech at the HC final last year means that for me maybe he could be strong contender for B&IL captain.

I think at the moment your right about Sexton but by the time the Lions selection comes around I think flyhalf will be a very contentious position. Sexton is good but not excellent.

maestegmafia wrote:

sugarNspikes wrote:A good captain doesn't get a red card in a world cup semi final by performing a spear tackle. In fact, if Bradley Davies tours we could end up with two red cards.

Could be a liability for the Lions.

Please try to think of something to write about that isnt just having a dig at the Welsh, Welsh rugby, a Welsh club or player... Your attempts to upset and annoy Welsh posters are boring, repetitive and pathetic... You have been on hear two weeks and that is all you have contributed.

Scoped wrote:
Terrible WUM, 1/10. Try harder.

A great captain needs to lead by example and know how to motivate his team. Personally after thinking hard about it, I think the only person who is pretty nailed on to start is Sexton, he's comfortably the top 10 in the NH right now and leads fantastically. Listening to all the Leinster boys praise his half time speech at the HC final last year means that for me maybe he could be strong contender for B&IL captain.

I think at the moment your right about Sexton but by the time the Lions selection comes around I think flyhalf will be a very contentious position. Sexton is good but not excellent.

Agreed, maesteg. It is a real worry about the red card threat that those players pose.

Sexton is much better for Leinster than Ireland. Priestland has really gone off the boil so it'll likely be Farrell and Sexton fighting over the spot.

maestegmafia wrote:
Please try to think of something to write about that isnt just having a dig at the Welsh, Welsh rugby, a Welsh club or player... Your attempts to upset and annoy Welsh posters are boring, repetitive and pathetic... You have been on hear two weeks and that is all you have contributed.

Please don't try and dictate to me considering the way you post on here.

Cheers rugbydreamer.

monwy wrote:Has Warburton really stood out as a great captain or just been captain of a team that is performing? Evidence either way?

In terms of captaining a Grand Slam winning side, wasn't he on the pitch for less than half their games (1 whole and 2 halves)?

Depends what you consider a great captain. None of us really get to see post, pre and half time captain speeches therefore we can only judge captains by what we know really. The reason I think Warburton is a good captain is because he is ultra professional, competitive, well respected and dedicated. He has a great attitude to the game. You are almost guarenteed not to have any off field scandal with him. Pre Warburton Wales were spinless. They were good enough to come close in big games but didn't have the leadership to drag them over the line. This seems to have changed and Warburton is part of this change.

My one caveat is Wales seem to constantly struggle v Australia which would perhaps lean the captaincy back in Dricos favour who tends to perform really well v Oz but who knows.

leinsterbaby wrote:The reason I think Warburton is a good captain is because he is ultra professional, competitive, well respected and dedicated. He has a great attitude to the game.

Don't you think that is true of most of the above candidates?

leinsterbaby wrote: Pre Warburton Wales were spinless. They were good enough to come close in big games but didn't have the leadership to drag them over the line.

How often has this actually happened though? Arguably only against Ireland in the WC and maybe England in the 6N.



I'm sure that Warburton would be a pretty decent Lions captain, I just have my suspicions that there is a confusion between his actual abilites as a captain and his game performance & that of his team. I feel some of the other candidates have deeper, more established leadership credentials and that in the pressure and heat of a tight Lions series that greater experience and known prevalence perceived by their teammates would stand the team in better stead.

With the series level in the final test, needing a converted try to win and only 5 mins to go, I know that I'd believe it more if I was being lead by O'Driscoll or O'Connell (I'm not Irish by the way).

Wales beat Ireland in the 6 nations in the last few minutes. Granted they needed a bit of help from the ref. However in the past whenever Ireland took the lead v Wales they generally fell apart. As for the qualities I mentioned yes the other candidates do have those qualities too which is why Warburton should be considered just as they should.

POC would be the stand out contender for me but I think he was a little disappointing as lions captain last time round.

I don't know if he was disappointing as a captain, but he was certainly below par as a player (Jones and Shaw were the best locks on that tour).

The only guy who is a likely starter (if fit) is Warbs but is he the best captain? As pointed out by some guys he hardly played in the 6N, he went off at half time gainst Ireland with Wales behind, R Jones took over and Jones was Wales captain for the whole game against Scotland, the way he is playing he would be my number 8 and captain. One year from now who knows!