problem at the scrum: The team jersey's?

As we all know, the srums have become a complete mess with interpretations on the laws all seemingly different according to what ref you have for the game. Its becoming a farce and is taking up allot of match time, ruining the game as a spectacle.

I honestly believe a big part of the scrums becoming a mess is the change in style of the rugby jersey's of teams these days. Since about 2007, rugby jersey's have been quite baggy, with large areas of the shirt hanging loose around the arm pit areas especially. This is key as it is the position as to where the props are inclined to grab hold of at scrum time. In the years gone by, srums were competitive with each prop being able to get a good hold of the opposition props shirt, then its down to who's the most powerful and also who has the more powerful pack.

In the modern era, how many times do we see the first scrum hit the deck with the front row collapsing. How many times do we see 2 or 3 re-set scrums due to the front row losing their binds and falling to the floor. It often results in a penalty being given for not binding and pulling on the arm, collapsing the scrum. But I believe that the props are finding it harder to scrum now with the change in jersey's the team where's. The influence of science has altered jersey's dramatically, with shirts now super tight in order for the player to run more freely through the air with less drag. This allows them to stay on the field for longer as they are not having to work harder to battle through a gusty wind that forces a player to work harder when running with the ball. When a scrum is set and the props extend their arms, preparing to bind, you can see that the arm pit areas are so tight that its becoming almost impossible to get a good fist full of jersey to bind on. Players now seem to just place their hand on the binding area and hope that they can maintain its placement there for the remainder of that scrum. Often though, on wetter days their hands simply slip off, collapsing the scrum and ending in a penalty to the opposition.

If you want to sort scrums out I believe a big step forward would be to alter the front rows jersey's, making them loser on the arm and allowing an area which could be grabbed more easily than the current shirts. It will certainly not fix the problem on its own, but I honestly feel it would be a big step forward in eradicating the problem at scrum time, of scrums continuously having to be re-set only for them to collapse to the ground. It takes up game time and thus entertaining time and is becoming an all too familiar sight on the rugby field.

Some good points made, bit its nothing to do with being able to run faster, the jerseys are tight to make tacking more difficult.

Also my understanding of the scrumaging laws is that binding on the arm is illegal so making the sleeves loose would not help. What would help is if Props wore some form of scrummage belt with somewhere for the opposing prop to grip. A bit like the knee rolls line out forwards now wear.

Seagultaf wrote:Some good points made, bit its nothing to do with being able to run faster, the jerseys are tight to make tacking more difficult.

Also my understanding of the scrumaging laws is that binding on the arm is illegal so making the sleeves loose would not help. What would help is if Props wore some form of scrummage belt with somewhere for the opposing prop to grip. A bit like the knee rolls line out forwards now wear.

Your probably right about the tackling but i'm sure it is also to make them more 'aero dynamic' if that's the word or streamline to allow them to move more efficiently through the air. Binding on the arm is illegal, that's why I said make them looser around the armpits on the sides, that's where you supposed to bind aren't you?

Anyone see aerodynamic Adam flying over the line on the weekend - Like an F16 in flight he was

As a long time served prop I know I would have hated wearing these tight jerseys (for obvious reasons !!!) but would also have hated trying to srummage against someone wearing them.

Something has to be done to sort out the scrums and I honestly think that as well as looking at jersey design it is also time to take the hit away. Let the two front rows bind against each other, then engage the second and back rows. Only when the ball comes in are you allowed to push. This would also encourage props to learn how to scrummage properly rather than just relying on the hit.

This would hopefully go someway to eradicate what has become a blight on the game and which is turning people away from watching. Something has to be done soon.

Pyle, you know that, i know that, we all know that, why the IRB don't seem to realise that is one of the great mysteries of our time!

I have a mate who props and he keeps banging on how there are no problems with scrummaging down in the lower leagues where its just too blokes with beer bellies but its the pros who seem to have the problems, whether it is trying to be too clever (i.e trying to cheat on the sly) or the shirts.

'Scrum Time'



What's wrong with

'The Scrum'

Was watching the Aviva highlights last night, in the background was an Exeter prop warming up. Looked very odd him doing the crouch, touch, pause, engage all on his own but he must have charged forward about 10 paces on the 'engage'. It's this part of the process that is wrong, there isn't supposed to be a 'hit' is there? No drive until the ball is in. If that was policed better maybe, just maybe we might get somewhere.

Carpe Diem wrote:Was watching the Aviva highlights last night, in the background was an Exeter prop warming up. Looked very odd him doing the crouch, touch, pause, engage all on his own but he must have charged forward about 10 paces on the 'engage'. It's this part of the process that is wrong, there isn't supposed to be a 'hit' is there? No drive until the ball is in. If that was policed better maybe, just maybe we might get somewhere.

That wouldn't be Budgy then if he moved that far.

UNBEREAL!!!!!!
It was in fact Hoani Tui.

Carpe Diem wrote: No drive until the ball is in. If that was policed better maybe, just maybe we might get somewhere.

The scrum problems are clearly a combination of issues:
1 - The CPTE sequence, meaning that the props are attempting to bind in a very dynamic setting

2 - The tightness of the jerseys, making it extremely difficult to get a good grip

3 - That all props are cheating barstewards anyway and will attempt to gain an unfair advantage in any way the ref will let them get away with (binding on arms, pulling down, boring in etc).

Get rid of CPTE, and give the referees some discretion regarding the suitability of the jerseys (effectively out-lawing jerseys that are too tight to allow a fair bind - I would actually extend this to all players shirts, that it should be possible to grab a handful of a jersey in effecting a tackle). The passive binding would also allow the ref to check that the props are binding legally on the torso rather than the arm (although clearly once the shoving starts, props will get up to their normal tricks)

After that, just enforce the rules - that the scrum is to be square and steady before the ball is fed, and that the ball goes straight in somewhere near the middle of the tunnel, necessitating a strike from the hooker.

I hope the IRB do something sooner or later because I am becoming very bored with watching endless re sets of the scrum and having a quarter of the game taken up with it.

I love the scrum even as one of the girls in the backs and it must stay, but it must be a contest as I am fed up with the ref deciding the outcome not the players.

I know it was done to encourage safety and that is paramount but would it be an idea to go back to the time when even if the scrum had collapsed the scrum half could still get the ball away.

I know this will encourage weaker scrums to collapse but I never really remember it being a huge issue before.

When Nigel Owens refs he does have some empathy with this as he is always telling the scrum half to use it or he will reset the scrum.

Just another thought as I am fed up of having scrum after scrum after scrum reset.

Morning boys,
The scrum clearly needs to be 'reset'. CPTE was done for the right reasons based upon how scrums were at that time. However, the issues have multiplied.

The jerseys, which are skin tight for the primary reason is that it makes a person harder to grab in rder to tackle, also makes it almost impossible to get a good bind. Certainly not a good bind in the old way we are thinking with the looser jerseys. A scrum-flap with material to grab makes great sense since it would be impossible to legislate 'looseness' (how loose is properly loose?).

The other part, the drive before the ball put in, also has become a problem. I was never really in favour of no drive before the ball enters the scrum, but there are still significant injuries in the scrum from that initial contact. And with the constant resets, it is probably the only other sane measure Rugby can take.

The IRB is, of course, paralysed with indecision. After the ELV cockup they do not want any additional bad publicity against the possibility one of these measures, or whichever variant is implemented, has some unforeseen problem.

Personally I think props should be made to revert to their former more traditional body shapes when there was never a problem with something to grab hold of when setting the scrum

If you were going to give the props an extra bit of jersey or a handle or an easey grip area, then every player should have one, as all these things will also make you easier to be tackled. Why is it fair that a forward should have an area of his jersey where you can hang onto for dear life, where as if you were tackling anyone else your hand would slip off ? Props like Gethin Jenkins, pride themselves on their ability to ba able to run and cover the ground, if he had a part of his jersey that was easily grabbed then that would hinder him no ends in open play.

Lordy,
How else can they get a bind? I don't think a flap sized appropriately enough to grab in the scrum would hinder them running about the pitch.

The jerseys were developed by Nike at SCW behest after he showed them a video of Jason Robinson being held back from a potential try scoring run by a player pulling on his jersey.

good point maid by LordDowlais, the Jersey thing is a non starter.

Like Geech said in an interview recently, make the scrum front rows bind first then add the rest.

but to be honest thats sounds too lame.

As usal, Chairman Moore is right.... enforce the EXISTING rules.

STRAIGHT put in, no shove (movement more than 2-3 feet) until the ball leaves the SH's hands.

Call the Linesman in closer to ensure that binding is proper on the other side.


only after all that should we look at kit support for the binding but tbh its more to do with props disrupting the grip of their opposite and bad scrummaging than the kit (although it doesn't help, but its not the solution).

90% of scrums seem to collapse because of no binding or binding on the arms.

If these new jerseys designed to make tacking more difficult (I liked the concept of aerodynamic props though) are also preventing a legal bind in the scrum. Either change the jerseys or add some form of device to facilitate a binding point. The device idea would make life easier for referees, if a prop is not binding on the device then it a clear penalty.

Seagultaf wrote:90% of scrums seem to collapse because of no binding or binding on the arms.

If these new jerseys designed to make tacking more difficult (I liked the concept of aerodynamic props though) are also preventing a legal bind in the scrum. Either change the jerseys or add some form of device to facilitate a binding point. The device idea would make life easier for referees, if a prop is not binding on the device then it a clear penalty.

It would also make spotting a qulified front row player far easier too.

I coach an under 12's team and we have not had one collapsed scrum all season. The main two reasons for this are that although we are allowed to push 0.5m there is no significant hit and also at our age they do not wear tight fitting jerseys.

I know you cannot compare u12 to professional rugby but what I would like to know is at what level this becomes a problem. I don't watch much Premiership rugby but what I do watch doesn't seem to be blighted by this problem to the extent that the Rabo 12 and International rugby does.

Pyleboy65 wrote:I coach an under 12's team and we have not had one collapsed scrum all season. The main two reasons for this are that although we are allowed to push 0.5m there is no significant hit and also at our age they do not wear tight fitting jerseys.

I know you cannot compare u12 to professional rugby but what I would like to know is at what level this becomes a problem. I don't watch much Premiership rugby but what I do watch doesn't seem to be blighted by this problem to the extent that the Rabo 12 and International rugby does.

It was always fine at school and has been OK but not great at Uni the past 2 seasons. At school we had loose tops, UNi uses tighter ones

The easiest way is to revert to old style shirts for one,and secondly revert to setting scrum up first as suggested then shoving.It takes longer but then there is no excuses for constant collapsing.Face it the collapse is now deliberate,coached trying to milk penalties or what ever.

perhaps a coloured area where the hand should be would suffice. Make it a white area on dark tops and a black area on light tops, then at least the linesmen can see from a distance if they are binding or not.

Give forwards loose shirts and backs tight shirts. They have different roles anyway, and a forward can still break and dodge tackles without a slippy shirt