Do Ulster have enough support for an expanded Ravenhill?

First topic message reminder :

I'm going to throw this one out there.......

After attending the Leinster game last Friday I have a few concerns about the plans to expand Ravenhill to 18,000 capacity.

The atmosphere was really poor at the memorial end against Leinster. It seemed like quite a few people there knew very little about rugby and weren't really following the game. Silence wasn't being observed for the place kicks by quite a few.

Now given that this was the last home game of the season and assuming that this was a bigger than average crowd I would be questioning how many genuine Ulster rugby and genuine rugby fans are out there right now, who will attend regular games and can we actually fill a bigger ground on a regular basis?

Will Ravenhill lose some of its atmosphere? Are there more genuine fans out there and if so why aren't they attending the games now?

Personally I think Ulster still have a lot of work to do to tap into the growing popularity of rugby union in Ireland and gain cross community support across the province.

Having been in Limerick recently and seen the infrastucture at Thomond and the community support that Munster have Ulster have a long, long way to go as a brand and an organisation.

Reaching the HEC final would be a massive boost and generate a lot of interest but I think Ulster still have to work a lot harder because I'm not convinced that just relying on their core support from traditional rugby areas will be enough, from a player or fan base perspective to build a rugby club which will be able to match Munster and Leinster in the long term.

I was massively frustrated to see both Union flags being waved at Thomond and to recently see a person in a local supermarket wearing a Munster jersey. The idea that anyone, casual fan, or otherwise, in Ulster would support Munster before their own province fills me with deep frustration. These are small things but they are symbolic of the problems that Ulster need to overcome if we want to achieve Logan and Humphreys vision.

Why are Ulster flags not made readily available to fans, the way they are for Munster fans?

The Kukri store at Ravenhill had no power generator on Friday night and was lit by an assistant holding a hand torch FFS. Would that happen in Munster or Leinster a week out from a HEC SF?

Friday night games work best for the majority of Ulster supporters, understandably, but for fans in the West it is difficult to make the kick off at 7.05 pm. Munster at least make some effort to cater for fans in Cork, are Ulster branch trying hard enough to accommodate fans from across the province?

In terms of PR there seems to be a lot of hype around this Christian thing right now. Not that there's anything wrong with being a Christian, but there does seem to be often a big descrepancy between how the club and it's fans are percieved in the media and the actual reality. The McLaughlin thing obviously was a PR disaster so clearly there are big improvement needed on how the club deal with media.

Too often the term NI and Ulster is used interchangably from an Ulster perspective, which again is a small thing but it doesn't promote the image that Ulster are representing all of the 9 counties.

Small things but they add up and if we want to be the best then we need have high standards.

Anyways don't want to sound negative. There's a SF to be won and its a great time to be an Ulster fan, but looking forward I want us to be the best and we have a lot to work on to match Munster and Leinster, off the pitch as well as on it.

There's much more knowledgeable Ulster fans on here so I'd be interested on what others think.

SUFTUM !

Great post Logie, delighted to hear that Ulster Rugby is attracting players and fans from West Belfast. Not that that should be a big deal of course, just the natural order, and likely it is and the media and marketing should reflect that.

Also there should be a music section on these forums! For the rugby fans!

logie28 wrote:When I read a thread like this it makes me proud to be a rugby fan. Intelligent, sensible, level headed, respectful debate on the internet, rarer than hens teeth!

A lot of interesting points, especially the op's piece. I appreciate the concerns expressed rodders, but I genuinely believe there is a fanbase out there, and we will get bigger crowds when the development is complete. This is because I believe the lack of facilities puts off quite a lot of folk going to games at the minute, and all being well, better bar, food, shop and 'comfort' facilities will encourage more people to come along once the work is done.

Also I know we are winning the battle to prove ulster rugby is for all the people of ulster. My club now has many players who hail from West Belfast, mostly guys who played Gaelic previously and decided to give rugby a go for a change and have fully embraced to, much to the clubs benefit both on and off the pitch. Initially a lot of the guys claimed to be Munster fans, joking West Belfast was actually part of Munster. I believe the word Ulster, the image they had of it, came from pictures of big Ian standing in front of the city hall with 'Ulster says no' behind him screaming 'never never never!' It tainted the concept of 'Ulster' for them.

But times have changed for the better in our wee Island, and they have seen Ulster rugby has nothing to do with all that madness, and represented them after all, and those guys can now be seen a Ravenhill regularly now, cheering on Ulster, and will be down in Dublin in force on Saturday.

They now understand that Ulster rugby is a team for the whole provence, regardless of religion or political background, and soon that will be understood by all, and our team and fanbase will benefit enormously.

You feicin beaut ya.

The Welsh have their own flag and (great) Anthem

The Scottish have their own flag and (Great) Anthem

The English have their own flag and Anthem (I can't remember EVER seeing/noticing or caring about, a Union Jack at an England game)

There is a Flag for Ulster thats ( I believe) pretty well accepted and non sectarian and if Ulster fans want to have Sweet Chariots as their (unoffical) anthem then so what, its a nice song and all - even if I do find it weird though given that its so synonomous with England!

As for Irish Rugby it think its worth remembering that throughout the troubles it was one of the few organisations that managed to avoid political connetations regardless of flags and anthems etc.

It was a great credit to all Ulster players over those years ( regardless of their background) to line out in Landsdowne road and wear the green alongside players of different politics and beliefs from different parts of the island.

I believe that as we move on that the ideas of borders flags and anthems become secondary to health, hapiness, prosperity for everyone and Rugby can play a small part of that.

Oh man.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibDNBjoel4s

Gibson wrote:Oh man.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibDNBjoel4s

I never saw Mike Gibson play. He must have been phenomenal to watch if he was as good as people say he was. I think Ireland has always produced some of the worlds finest ever players. McBride, Slattery, Wood, Kyle etc. But just never enough at one time to be a world class side. Hopefully that will change in the not to distant future. I think it will actually.

How does Mike Gibson compare to Brian O'Driscoll? Who's better? Is there anything between them?

Imagine they were both born in 1994 or so, and were about to start their test careers in the center together in the next 6 Nations. They'd run riot.

The truth is that rugby is a grammar school sport and those schools are predominately protestant and the catholic schools play GAA almost exclusively. However the middle class in Northern Ireland tend to give politics a wide berth and therefore there is no appetite to bring politics into Ravenhill. Therein lies the conundrum. To expand their fan base they will have to appeal to markets outside the traditional ones and that will be uncomfortable for existing fans accepting rugby illiterates who may not be so shy about expressing their political affiliations. For example it is probably unsafe to wear an Ulster rugby shirt in some areas of Belfast yet you can be assured that someone will try it and any consequences will make headlines, not all publicity is good.

If Ulster Rugby try to pander to political correctness they will please nobody and harm their fan base rather than expand it. They really should disassociate themselves from any political stance whatsoever. The political chill factor is a total red herring in any case. Clive made a good post on the previous page about the ticket pricing that seems to have been largely ignored by those wanting to do some flag waving. Ulster Rugby prices are simply too much for a lot of people - myself included. If I'm going with my family I am looking at about £130 for a match plus plus. There simply aren't enough ticket options to appeal to more people. For example UR seem happy to have the middle tier of the new stand empty, rather than discount the seats with a small premium. They could operate a lottery for tickets with some free, a sliding scale and a cap on the upper limit. They need to get a bit more wise to the fact that season ticket holders need more options too. Not everyone can get to every game so tickets should be transferable through the club. They really need to learn from the Premiership football clubs on how to maximise their revenue as that will almost always mean increasing the gate.

High praise indeed from one of such experience and wisdom, good auld Bill I used to love the way he'd tell you player Heights and weights down to the ounce!

Feckless, I think its very hard to compare palyers of that era to ones today, there are some many impoderables.

Today an 18 year old of Gibsons stature and physique with natural ability like that would probably be cast as a srum half long before now but who knows. You'd also have to look at opposition 12's and that fact that they all seem to be big bruisersfrom the Roberts, SBW mould.

BOD is better as it stands. Apparently.

It's the Pro v Amateur era argument. But, for me, Gibson was the best centre Ive ever seen - in the amateur era. BOD, has been the best ever since.
No one had a clue what Gibson was going to do next. Least of all, his own team. Gibson was Georgie Best on a rugby pitch. BOD, is more of a hyper-intelligent nuisance, specially at the breakdown. Half back, half backrow specialist. Can read a game and influence all around him, in a nano-second. But Gibson was more off-the-cuff. In the midst of Irish mediocrity (ring a bell?) - Gibson shone like a beacon

He made a mediocre Ireland dangerous - all on his own. Just like BOD has carried Leinster & Ireland for the last 10 years now.

Common denominator is - super intelligence and sublime skill-sets. Unlike so many other overrated players.

They dont come round too often. Every 20/30 years or so.

Gibson was a consumate Pro. Long before Pros were invented. The Lions, was a job he prepared for and excelled at. O' Driscoll was and is - the same. They were and are - so special.

The very best of the very best. Just give me the two of em in the Centre. They'd roide any other centre pairing now. No internal arguments please. Both geniuses at their craft.

The best possible centre-pairing, in virtual and real - History.

No English man, No Welsh man, No colonial Saffer, No Aussie or Kiwi - can ever attempt to dispute that. They will. But it would be futile.

Its a done Irish deal.

tecphobe wrote:Its a total no brainer not to mention the untapped Playing potential. I can think of loads of GAA Players in the North who would of made excellent Rugby Players.

You are so right mate. I gave four Gaelic footballers from Cushendall their first games of Rugby for Ballymoney in the late 1970's (Just think about that for a minute). At the level we were playing they excelled due to the exceptional hand eye co-ordination. One of those guys has only just retired from playing last year. He was 60 and a tighthead prop!! John Hayes eat yer heart out .

By the way, thanks for putting this article up Rodders. I'm sure if you look back at the old 606 and compare - the attitudes of the supporters who frequent these boards has changed.

WOW WOW WOW! Theres far too much reading to do here since yesterday!

I thought we were all in the same boat regarding 606v2.

That boat being, something to do instead of actually working!

You guys actually go on this in the evenings too??? I can't keep up!


One thing, I'd like to know is, are any politicians planning to go to the semi? Martin Mcguinness/Gerry Adams in particular? I think this would be a massive step in the right direction.

In general though, I feel that the media in NI don't fully understand the significance of this semi final. I've hardly heard a peep about it. Compare that what how much you hear on radio/tv about our sh***e wendyball team.

If we get to the final, there really should be a feature length programme done about the team and players. But sadly, I don't think UTV or BBC realise the potential in this.

But I definatly would call for our politicians to really get behind the team and SF especially. The truth is, I know Martin McGuinness would really enjoy himself. Hope somebody invites him!

Rava, was he a ballymoney player? Some of your old heads are great! Its a pity you couldnt teach Coleraine how to hang onto their players for anything more than a few years!

He was Clive. Played a few years with Armoy and then returned. We have quite a few guys still playing in their 40's.

I'll bet now there will be politicians from both camps at the game. It's a great opportunity for them to showcase the NI Government working together. More power them I say

Jasus lads you spend a day talking about keeping
politics out of sport and are spending the morning calling for politicians to attend the game.


Make up your mind like



Although it would prove that it is a non political organization if you could get politicians from both sides to attend. Bit if a catch 22 that one like.

I've so much respect for Armoy. It amazes me how they even have a club.

Yea but Hoog, big progress has been made up here my SF attending Windsor matches, and unionists going to GAA. Rugby hasnt to my knowledge been highlighted in this way. And if we want to stear away from the protestant working class image, then having someone from SF or SDLP as a genuine fan would seriously help!

It would also be another Ulster Rugby related story. Same as using Rory McIlroy to put Ulster Rugby in the news more. Every little helps to increase popularity.

Feckless Rogue wrote: How does Mike Gibson compare to Brian O'Driscoll? Who's better? Is there anything between them?

Being old enough to have watched both - Gibson was the better 12, BOD is the better 13.

Without any doubt they stand head and shoulders above anyone else, in those position in an Irish shirt, during the last 50 years.

My tuppence worth.

Whilst I do not get terribly animated about flags I do look forward to the day when their are no Tricolours at an Ireland game and no Northern Ireland flags at an Ulster.

It would indicate to me that at last the fact they are 32 county and 9 county teams respectively has, at last, been accepted by the wider rugby communities.

For me, if I have a flag with me on Saturday, it will be a 9 counties flag. It is the only one that fully represents my team.

Some mentioned a lack of players from the 3 counties. As an FYI - Declan Fitzpatricks family hail from cavan and Kieron Campbells family hailed from Donegal.

Also, as I mentioned elsewhere, I am pretty certain we had an all Catholic front row in a match near the start of the season - something inconceivable a few years back.

Serious question here lads,



I was thinking about this yesterday but how will ulster cope with the favourites tag?? This is the first time probably since 1999 that they've come into a game anywhere close to this magnitude as favourites. Will they be able to cope with the pressure??

The Great Aukster wrote:The truth is that rugby is a grammar school sport and those schools are predominately protestant and the catholic schools play GAA almost exclusively. However the middle class in Northern Ireland tend to give politics a wide berth and therefore there is no appetite to bring politics into Ravenhill. Therein lies the conundrum. To expand their fan base they will have to appeal to markets outside the traditional ones and that will be uncomfortable for existing fans accepting rugby illiterates who may not be so shy about expressing their political affiliations. For example it is probably unsafe to wear an Ulster rugby shirt in some areas of Belfast yet you can be assured that someone will try it and any consequences will make headlines, not all publicity is good.

If Ulster Rugby try to pander to political correctness they will please nobody and harm their fan base rather than expand it. They really should disassociate themselves from any political stance whatsoever. The political chill factor is a total red herring in any case. Clive made a good post on the previous page about the ticket pricing that seems to have been largely ignored by those wanting to do some flag waving. Ulster Rugby prices are simply too much for a lot of people - myself included. If I'm going with my family I am looking at about £130 for a match plus plus. There simply aren't enough ticket options to appeal to more people. For example UR seem happy to have the middle tier of the new stand empty, rather than discount the seats with a small premium. They could operate a lottery for tickets with some free, a sliding scale and a cap on the upper limit. They need to get a bit more wise to the fact that season ticket holders need more options too. Not everyone can get to every game so tickets should be transferable through the club. They really need to learn from the Premiership football clubs on how to maximise their revenue as that will almost always mean increasing the gate.

Great post as always Aukster. Unfortunately it isn't possible to have a debate about Ulster rugby, marketing, fan base and branding without infringing on politics/emblems/religon etc. .... thats ok and whether anyone likes it or not relevent to the debate and can't be dismissed for the sake of political correctness. I'm glad that people have been open and honest on this from both ends of the spectrum. Walking around on eggshell gets you feicing nowhere and its a sign of political maturity that these things can be discussed frankly and respectfully.

That said I don't believe that this is the be all and end all and certainly resolving the flag issue is not a silver bullet for building a bigger fan base.

As has been said its about pricing, marketing, facilitities etc. those are the key issues, some of which are being adressed already but we need to act quickly while the club is building momentum on the field.

One big thing that stands out for me is that any of us who have been involved in grass routes rugby in Ulster at any level know that Ulster branch is representative of the 9 counties of Ulster and that rugby here is for the most part and inclusive sport, played by all religons and none. However sometimes the perception from the media is that Ulster rugby is the rugby equivilant of the NI football team, a Belfast team for NI middle class protestants. Thats ignoring the SA - Christian thing.

Now there's nothing at all wrong with the NI football team but this is simply inaccurate and to me that is a failing of the club PR. The most high profile player we've produced in modern times is a Catholic ex GAA player from Monaghan FFS. How many average punters on the street know that? I'd say not as many as you might think....again we're creeping back to politics.... the point is get the branding right, get media savvie, get the facts out there in the mainstream media and not myths and if people still don't like it well feic off and support someone else thank you.

In terms of flags, its a sensitive issue and certainly telling anyone not to wave certain flag would be a big faux pas. However there are other ways to progress... give out free and/or make club flags readily available to fans at home and away games, the way Munster do. Two birds down with one stone. Happy days .

Anyways thanks to people for taking this article in the spirit it was intended .

As a point of information I drive my daughter to school on the Falls Road with the Afrikaan 'Stand Up for the Ulsterman' sticker in the back of the car.
No one bats an eyelid.

I have also been driving with an Ulster jacket on - again with the same non response

The biggest thing to expand the gate is on-pitch success. Munster and Leinster have both grown because of it. In turn they have become more successful because they have grown - that is the sort of virtuous circle that could render an 18k capacity far too small for Ulster in the future.

Geoff - there are some sectarian loonies about but in my experience they're too cowardly to stop a car!

Hoog wrote:Serious question here lads,



I was thinking about this yesterday but how will ulster cope with the favourites tag?? This is the first time probably since 1999 that they've come into a game anywhere best this magnitude as favourites. Will they be able to cope with the pressure??

Yesterday?? I've been thinking about this for the last 3 weeks mate!

I'd hope with the likes off Muller, Pienaar, Best, Ferris, Terblanche there who've played in plenty of huge games before, that we'll be better placed to deal with expectation than in previous seasons but who knows man, there's a huge amount of pressure here...

We'll find out on Saturday I suppose !

At £20 per ticket, I'll go to 2/3 games a season. If it were £15 I'd go to 4/5 games. If it were £10/£12, I'd go to 8-10 games per season.

Just to clarify what a ticket costs if buying via a Season Ticket on the Prom or Terrace.

13 pounds a match with loyalty discount, 14.33 a match if first time Season Ticket buyer.

A few things

Goosestepper
"The English have their own flag and Anthem" England don't have a national Anthem and hence move to the next one the UK national Anthem. (same when NI play football Ni has no official national Anthem so hence moves to next official Athem the UK one)

second " if Ulster fans want to have Sweet Chariots as their (unoffical) anthem"

Sweet chariots isn't an Ulster anthem "stand up for the Ulster men" is, we just sang it at Leicester game, a bit tongue in cheek, Never thought I'd sing it in my life but just seamed to fit the occassion (when we were well in the lead) don't think you'll ever here it at Ravenhill again unless we play Leicester again.

Rava "four Gaelic footballers from Cushendall " Gaelic footballers in Cushendall? surley not, Hurlers yes footballers are a rare breed there, Gaelic football is considered the girls game, for girls to scared to play camogie.

I know in the Glens in the 70's there was a pub rugby team called the knockers 15, that played a few games, based in Hamiltons bar, mostly ex-hurlers who liked to run into people and then drink, don't know how many games they played.

clivemcl wrote:Yea but Hoog, big progress has been made up here my SF attending Windsor matches, and unionists going to GAA. Rugby hasnt to my knowledge been highlighted in this way. And if we want to stear away from the protestant working class image, then having someone from SF or SDLP as a genuine fan would seriously help!

It would also be another Ulster Rugby related story. Same as using Rory McIlroy to put Ulster Rugby in the news more. Every little helps to increase popularity.

+1.

Aukster,

The Grammar School thing is undoubtably true but Ulster Branch are taking steps to try to broaden the number and type of school at which rugby is played.

There are competitions exclusively aimed at those schools who have not got a great tradition of rugby being played there. They have Cup/Plate/Bowl finals and the Cup final is played at Ravenhill.

They are also doing great work in Primary Schools organising training sessions and Tag Blitz days. My 10 year old has already played in one this year and is off to another one this week. Now we are a family who love and support rugby but this is my ballet Dancing Gymnast who has never really shown much interest. She loved it! Her Primary School has one Ulster player as a past pupil but all the other teams she played against probably won't be able to say that....yet!

The Mini Rugby Club my kids were involved in had lots of kids who played rugby on Saturday and Hurling on Sunday.

Small steps when viewed in isolation, but they are all moving in the right direction. That's all we can hope for, that each small step is in the right direction!

I love it!

geoff998rugby wrote:My tuppence worth.

Whilst I do not get terribly animated about flags I do look forward to the day when their are no Tricolours at an Ireland game and no Northern Ireland flags at an Ulster.

It would indicate to me that at last the fact they are 32 county and 9 county teams respectively has, at last, been accepted by the wider rugby communities.

For me, if I have a flag with me on Saturday, it will be a 9 counties flag. It is the only one that fully represents my team.

Some mentioned a lack of players from the 3 counties. As an FYI - Declan Fitzpatricks family hail from cavan and Kieron Campbells family hailed from Donegal.

Also, as I mentioned elsewhere, I am pretty certain we had an all Catholic front row in a match near the start of the season - something inconceivable a few years back.

Geoff, have a mate.

Kingshu wrote:A few things

Goosestepper
"The English have their own flag and Anthem" England don't have a national Anthem and hence move to the next one the UK national Anthem. (same when NI play football Ni has no official national Anthem so hence moves to next official Athem the UK one)

second " if Ulster fans want to have Sweet Chariots as their (unoffical) anthem"

Sweet chariots isn't an Ulster anthem "stand up for the Ulster men" is, we just sang it at Leicester game, a bit tongue in cheek, Never thought I'd sing it in my life but just seamed to fit the occassion (when we were well in the lead) don't think you'll ever here it at Ravenhill again unless we play Leicester again.

Rava "four Gaelic footballers from Cushendall " Gaelic footballers in Cushendall? surley not, Hurlers yes footballers are a rare breed there, Gaelic football is considered the girls game, for girls to scared to play camogie.

I know in the Glens in the 70's there was a pub rugby team called the knockers 15, that played a few games, based in Hamiltons bar, mostly ex-hurlers who liked to run into people and then drink, don't know how many games they played.

WOT? GAA is the hardest and most skilful game on the Planet. I played it high level. Dig and run job. Did you ever play it? I'd say not.

Girlie Volleyball expert are we? Love that too. Especially the fingers behind tight arses.

fair play gents ive only read this thread sparingly (as i know Jaymaster3000 - good to see you putting that 1st class history degree to good use mate ;-) ) but can i say that you should all be commended (and i dont mean to sound patronising) for the way in which you can have such a contentious debate on some very touchy issues but still not resort to petty acts or pointless bickering

i wish some of my welsh brethren would take note!

MrsP wrote:Aukster,

The Grammar School thing is undoubtably true but Ulster Branch are taking steps to try to broaden the number and type of school at which rugby is played.

There are competitions exclusively aimed at those schools who have not got a great tradition of rugby being played there. They have Cup/Plate/Bowl finals and the Cup final is played at Ravenhill.

They are also doing great work in Primary Schools organising training sessions and Tag Blitz days. My 10 year old has already played in one this year and is off to another one this week. Now we are a family who love and support rugby but this is my ballet Dancing Gymnast who has never really shown much interest. She loved it! Her Primary School has one Ulster player as a past pupil but all the other teams she played against probably won't be able to say that....yet!

The Mini Rugby Club my kids were involved in had lots of kids who played rugby on Saturday and Hurling on Sunday.

Small steps when viewed in isolation, but they are all moving in the right direction. That's all we can hope for, that each small step is in the right direction!

I love it!

Yes I know all of that Mrs P. Mini rugby is booming, but a lot of the kids go to secondary schools that don't then play rugby and so play GAA/Soccer instead. A very few will stick with the rugby club they played mini rugby at, but non-school affiliated underage rugby is woefully uncompetitive. It's amazing that someone like Dom Gallagher with a family history in GAA and playing through a juniour club like Lisburn ever became recognised at all.

The Schools Cup really needs overhauled to allow age-group club sides to compete. This would provide a far better level of competition and encourage the clubs to recruit and invest in these age groups.

Kingshu wrote:A few things

Goosestepper
"The English have their own flag and Anthem" England don't have a national Anthem and hence move to the next one the UK national Anthem. (same when NI play football Ni has no official national Anthem so hence moves to next official Athem the UK one)

second " if Ulster fans want to have Sweet Chariots as their (unoffical) anthem"

Sweet chariots isn't an Ulster anthem "stand up for the Ulster men" is, we just sang it at Leicester game, a bit tongue in cheek, Never thought I'd sing it in my life but just seamed to fit the occassion (when we were well in the lead) don't think you'll ever here it at Ravenhill again unless we play Leicester again.

Rava "four Gaelic footballers from Cushendall " Gaelic footballers in Cushendall? surley not, Hurlers yes footballers are a rare breed there, Gaelic football is considered the girls game, for girls to scared to play camogie.

I know in the Glens in the 70's there was a pub rugby team called the knockers 15, that played a few games, based in Hamiltons bar, mostly ex-hurlers who liked to run into people and then drink, don't know how many games they played.

Kings, I played against that team from Hamiltons. Sunday Rugby and not a Free P in sight
I'm sure the guys probably played Hurling. Sure what did I know then

Hoog wrote:Serious question here lads,


I was thinking about this yesterday but how will ulster cope with the favourites tag?? This is the first time probably since 1999 that they've come into a game anywhere close to this magnitude as favourites. Will they be able to cope with the pressure??

What do you mean Hughie? Sure we have been favourites in nearly all of our games this season Coped well enough to get us to this stage.

Not sure yet how we will cope with being favorites for the final

My best mate’s missus is a Monaghan woman. Her bro is the captain of Monaghan RFC, they just won the Gordon West cup in Ravenhill a few weeks ago.

Not sure what standard that cup is set at but it’s good to see some rugby clubs from the 3 counties doing well…

Kingshu wrote:A few things

Goosestepper
"The English have their own flag and Anthem" England don't have a national Anthem and hence move to the next one the UK national Anthem. (same when NI play football Ni has no official national Anthem so hence moves to next official Athem the UK one)

second " if Ulster fans want to have Sweet Chariots as their (unoffical) anthem"

Sweet chariots isn't an Ulster anthem "stand up for the Ulster men" is, we just sang it at Leicester game, a bit tongue in cheek, Never thought I'd sing it in my life but just seamed to fit the occassion (when we were well in the lead) don't think you'll ever here it at Ravenhill again unless we play Leicester again.

Rava "four Gaelic footballers from Cushendall " Gaelic footballers in Cushendall? surley not, Hurlers yes footballers are a rare breed there, Gaelic football is considered the girls game, for girls to scared to play camogie.


I know in the Glens in the 70's there was a pub rugby team called the knockers 15, that played a few games, based in Hamiltons bar, mostly ex-hurlers who liked to run into people and then drink, don't know how many games they played.

Hi Mate when I said their own anthem I meant God Save the Queen, which I'm pretty sure IS the English national anthem my point being that its not the Welsh, Scottish anthem even though it is the UK anthem. Living in Aus I often find myself trying to explain the convoluted history of Britain and Ireland and how it all fits together!

I haven't watched a lot of Ulster games recently but I have it in my head that I heard Chariots in Thomond for the HC QF but I'll stand to be corrected on that.

To reiterate though none of this is particularly important in the great scheme of things.

Happy ANZAC day everyone

War is over. For 70 years now. Why do Aussies and Kiwis still celebrate it? The Yanks and the Russians won it apparently. I read the match report.

And Germany now runs Yurop.

Papers must be late getting down under?

Gibson wrote:

logie28 wrote:When I read a thread like this it makes me proud to be a rugby fan. Intelligent, sensible, level headed, respectful debate on the internet, rarer than hens teeth!

A lot of interesting points, especially the op's piece. I appreciate the concerns expressed rodders, but I genuinely believe there is a fanbase out there, and we will get bigger crowds when the development is complete. This is because I believe the lack of facilities puts off quite a lot of folk going to games at the minute, and all being well, better bar, food, shop and 'comfort' facilities will encourage more people to come along once the work is done.

Also I know we are winning the battle to prove ulster rugby is for all the people of ulster. My club now has many players who hail from West Belfast, mostly guys who played Gaelic previously and decided to give rugby a go for a change and have fully embraced to, much to the clubs benefit both on and off the pitch. Initially a lot of the guys claimed to be Munster fans, joking West Belfast was actually part of Munster. I believe the word Ulster, the image they had of it, came from pictures of big Ian standing in front of the city hall with 'Ulster says no' behind him screaming 'never never never!' It tainted the concept of 'Ulster' for them.

But times have changed for the better in our wee Island, and they have seen Ulster rugby has nothing to do with all that madness, and represented them after all, and those guys can now be seen a Ravenhill regularly now, cheering on Ulster, and will be down in Dublin in force on Saturday.

They now understand that Ulster rugby is a team for the whole provence, regardless of religion or political background, and soon that will be understood by all, and our team and fanbase will benefit enormously.

You feicin beaut ya.

This kind of thing means more to me than any number of Heineken Cup semi-finals!

Notch wrote:
This kind of thing means more to me than any number of Heineken Cup semi-finals!

Woah lets not get a carried away here Notch!

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Notch wrote:I've played an American Strat for the last four or five years Rory.

So you know a good guitar then can't beat a good strat. What amp?

I play through either a lovely Vox valve or a Fender Hot Rod (solid state) most times I play but those are the Universities amps and most gigs I play are in the Uni, at home I'm stuck with a low quality Marshall solid state because I'm too broke (broke as a joke)

anyway back on topic,

I said on another thread you get a lot of Munster tops in Ulster.

I remember one guy in a pub saying Munster were his team, and I thought its a shame an Ulster fan suports another province first (as they would even dream of supporting another GAA county) even though I nearly did myself.

But I believe a lot of these fans were not supporting Ulster for 2 reasons.

1) Ulster are seen as a Protestant team - this goes back to the two fold problem, older generation sees it as a very unionist team (both sides hence protests about games on Sunday, when they break away from this), adn rugby is only played in protestant schools.

This is changing with the older generation seeing Ulster is fully Professional and has no time to play politics, being on TV will have shown this change to a wider audance than before. 2nd point many GAA background players are turning to Rugby as a winter game to keep fitness up and really enjoy it, they never got the chance at School but like the game.

For this 2nd point Is why I believe the under age development of the game should be taken out of the Schools and the empheses placed on under age club compations.

The Schools cup would be downgraded, and Clubs cup but in place, Schoolboys would be encouraged to join a club and play most of the rugby for them, rather than only playing for a School untill 18. This would make the game more inclusive.

the 2) reason is Ulster fans that felt no connection to the Ulster team supported Munster because Muster were successful, so supported the successful team, now a certain number are Leinster fans. It's no coincidence that in the non Ulster supporting Ulster folk, it was Munster tops seen and not Connacht ones.

With Ulster getting to the semi and possible final many of these fans may be tempted to supporting there own province, seeing Ulster on TV will help.

I think the Union flag is no longer at Ravenhill (not sure as never really minded it) the Ulster banners flown by some supporters can be off putting. You tend to see them more at away games and not Ravenhill, as while one side see it as the NI flag, and they are showing they are from NI, others see it as a a symbol of Ulster loyalism and can be offput by it.

Great post Kingshu. You hit a lot of nails on the head there sir .

Gibson wrote:War is over. For 70 years now. The Yanks and the Russians won it apparently. I read the match report.

And Germany now runs Yurop.

Papers must be late getting down under?

The whole ANZAC day emphasis here is on WW1 and the Gallipoli campaign in particular as this was seen as a seminal moment in which Australia emerged as a nation unto itself as opposed to a British colony on the other side of the world. It also cracks the Aussies up when I tell them that of the first 3 battalions on the beach in Dardenelles campaign were Irish - Dublin and Munster fusiliers I think!

We get the papers here apparently there has just been a very bloody revolution in the Netherlands to remove a despotic regime and malignant dictator - it may be worth nothing that pretty much all media here is owned by Murdoch and his more right wing friends in Fairfax!

while being pedantic England and N.Ireland don't have official nation anthems, while Wales and Scotland do.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_anthem_of_England

But thats really of topic and there were plenty and will be every 6 nations articles about it.

Have a great ANZAC day, I guess its kinda like a national beer day. Is it not St George's day yesterday, you making a week of it?

Kingshu,

I totally agree that age grade rugby here is very poor or none existant. A few of the kids from my son's (very sucessful) Mini team went on to schools where rugby is not played. A couple of the coaches decided to try to keep them all together and so organised an Under 14 Club team but finding opposition was tough. They did organise a fixture against my son's school which my have been a first (and possibly last) venture into "mixed" rugby at that level.

I don't think there is any need to move away from school rugby but rather we should strengthen and build the underage Club based game and blend the 2 together.

And, on a totally different theme, isn't ANSAC Day like Remebrance Day?

Very important to remember those whose lives were sacrificed in War. I think it helps discourage further wars rather than glorify them, no?

It can go either way MrsP- I think governments can use it for propaganda purposes. Hence the White Poppy. It's a great way of remembering without being millitaristic pr only remembering the dead of one side.

MrsP wrote:I don't think there is any need to move away from school rugby but rather we should strengthen and build the underage Club based game and blend the 2 together.

This one probably needs a whole thread...

Having played both schoolboy and underage rugby my perception is that the standard is much higher at Schoolboy level... that said there were some very talented players in my club underage side at the time I played, with a few going on to become good AIB club players, one an Ulster pro player.

Problems though with the club system is a lack of players, Schools wouldn't let players play for the club, even if they weren't getting gametime with their school team. Things may have changed now on that?

The following two points aren't mine as such but made by a club coach and development respectively officer recently:

Clubs don't have resources to go out and recruit players and identify talent, they rely on people coming to them.

At club level there is a lack of contact time with the players vs at Schools, so the players don't get the same standard of coaching and development.

The club system probably is the way forward but I don't really see anything dramatic changing on that front.

On and back to the orginal topic can Ulster grow support to fill an 18,000 stadium?

I think yes, there will be lots of new fans next year, I know people going to the semi that have never been to Ravenhill before, but I'm sure will be next year, while they aren't the most knowledgeable fans, from little acorns mightly oaks grow. Everyone starts somewhere and the more they go the more knowledgeable they will become.

For most games I don't think the ends will be filled but it'll be about same atmostsphere we have now, for big games all 4 sides packed would be better.

Also Ulster used to get bigger crowds than we do now, we can get those fans back easy and more next year.

Downside is it may not be as easy to get a ticket as it used to be, season ticket for next year maybe?

If Ulster grow right a 18,000 capacity stadium is very realistic, as long as your not expecting to sell out every game, average attendance of 15,000 in 2/3years isn't that ambitious really, a very modest target TBH.

Just look at number of new fans already, Build it and they will come.

Goosestepper wrote:

Gibson wrote:War is over. For 70 years now. The Yanks and the Russians won it apparently. I read the match report.

And Germany now runs Yurop.

Papers must be late getting down under?

The whole ANZAC day emphasis here is on WW1 and the Gallipoli campaign in particular as this was seen as a seminal moment in which Australia emerged as a nation unto itself as opposed to a British colony on the other side of the world. It also cracks the Aussies up when I tell them that of the first 3 battalions on the beach in Dardenelles campaign were Irish - Dublin and Munster fusiliers I think!

We get the papers here apparently there has just been a very bloody revolution in the Netherlands to remove a despotic regime and malignant dictator - it may be worth nothing that pretty much all media here is owned by Murdoch and his more right wing friends in Fairfax!