Do you ever have a crisis of conscience in your belief in your team?

I never had to walk the road to Damascus to get converted. I was born on a council estate in Leicester so the Tigers and Leicester City (which I shed yonks ago) were part of me.

But now I have reached a real worry. The very club I loved is metamorphosing into a corporate beast.

In 2002 or thereabouts on the ScrumV board that I'd be happy for the Tigers to lose an incredible run in the GP and the HEC and so on.
Because I didn't want the Tigers to be another Man U.

And to be honest I got what I wanted - about four years without a pot of any kind. A sort of a Lenten period after which I shared with my club and fellow fans a fair shower of honours and partial successes.

But it only occurred to me yesterday, that The Tigers and the game into which idolised has transmogrified from a man to Mammon concept where even my own club has capitulated to the ruthless exploitation of its own followers to the extent that they should be gladly pay eight quid through the nose to wear a multinational company's billboard.

Although I can't give up my devotion, I am having serious pangs of conscience as to whether I should.

The game I loved is gone and although I still love the spectacle, the proto-globalistic dead hand of commercialism is slowly wringing every drop of sport out of it.

Portnoy, do you mean my belief in the team or my devotion to the team?

I assume that Munster have "DEFINITELY won" and "DEFINITELY lost" about 4 times a match. I didnt believe that we would get those last minute drop goals against Northampton and Castres and definitely there were stages of the games against Scarlets this year when I had resigned myself to defeat.

So yes I do have crisises about my belief in the team.

However you seem to be describing devotion to your team. Wanting your team to lose for ethical/moral reasons?

You are nowt but a kid Staggy. You will reflect back in forty years time and wonder where it all went wrong.

From my viewpoint I see a game that has lost its innocence via a rising tide of financial of commercial incentives to a cynical mass-exploitation.

On whatever unimaginable medium you will have at your disposal in 2050, I hope that you will dwell back on this post.

Maybe it will be to reflect back on the loss of Ireland or Northern Hemisphere rugby to Global 'Rollerball' teams.

Or the loss of rugby to Great Ball merger. Who knows?

I can imagine so Portnoy.

But your thread isn't lamenting lost values in the modern game.

Its that you felt (as I understood it) that from time to time you hope Tigers lose?

The day I stop supporting Ulster is the day I stop being a rugby fan.

There's no option for me - I am geographically, culturally and emotionally bound to my home Province and will support them through thick and thin.

Ulster and Ireland and thats it and then beyond that the other Irish teams, when they don't play us of course.

There's times when I question where things are going but you take the rough with the smooth.... hopefully tomorrow is a smooth one!

SUFTUM!

I am seriously questioning whether I should continue supporting the Tigers as a matter of faith. I like Rodders above, have entirely the same emotions towards the Tigers.

In my (Leicester) case I'm worried about where all the cash is going to. We are maxed-out on our player cap card (which I guess would be well-covered by attendance money alone).

We have fan shareholders who have no dividends to speak of.

And a bloated number of managers and administrators - some have rugby caps, some don't - but what is for sure is that none have personal wage caps.

And the thing that puts the lid on it for me is that fans are expected t pay through the nose to sponsor a multinational organisation through the streets and on TV via billboard which all-but obliterates the brand they primarily support.

I'd imagine all teams in Europe now are the same. They exist as businesses and their success off the pitch influences how they perform on it and vice versa. But it's really not just sport. It's the whole super commercialised western world. The avenues of protest available to us are limited, and the effective avenues of protest are non-existent.

We don't really have any choice about it; it probably will change, but only when our society is in terminal decline. Until then, I'm happy to go with the flow. I'm cynical enough to want to enjoy my life instead of changing the world, so just sing along until the music stops. Thats how I view most things.

Rugby retains its values compared to many other sports and thats important. Despite the effect of French cash warping the rugby world teams remain based on cores of local players and local support, rugby people are in charge and traditions of teams are respected by the people running them- they also respect the fans. If a little commercialisation is required to keep that machine turning, it's a price worth paying.

The IRFU, WRU and SRU are in a much better position; there's nothing to stop some foreign (or local) billionaire buying a French or English club and deciding to try and move games to South Africa or something equally horrifying. We are protected from the excesses of private ownership and for that I am deeply grateful.

Don't Tigers have an non-professional side (I've Wasps and Quins do). you could go on supporting them instead, same team just a different branch.

I personally don't have any 'belief' in any side.

Notch, can't the regions also get bought? I'm not sure how much control the WRU have in them but they can't have overall control otherwise the regions would never have taken the WRU to court.

Notch,

The IRFU, WRU and SRU are in a much better position; there's nothing to stop some foreign (or local) billionaire buying a French or English club and deciding to try and move games to South Africa or something equally horrifying. We are protected from the excesses of private ownership and for that I am deeply grateful.

A really extravagant (but extremely bone-headed) multi-millionaire could buy up the entire structure of Scottish rugby for a pittance in relative terms.

Murrayfield and Murrayfield alone is their only prize asset.

And for a few quid extra, he could buy up Welsh regional rugby although the national assets of the Welsh team brand and the MS would be an impossible purchase.

And Ireland? Who knows - depends on national and provincial success in the next five-ten years. If the supply of quality falters, then the demand to purchase will too.

I've been reading up on it and it seems that the regions are owned by the clubs that formed them. Therefore a billionaire could buy them just as easily as any of the English or French clubs (especially Cardiff and Scarlets as they're owned by one club). the owner of Cardiff RFC and Llanelli RFC owns the regions.

Yeah, that was not so smart over in Wales

Notch wrote:Yeah, that was not so smart over in Wales

Or Scotland.

Or the as the previously unmentioned Italy.

Apart from that you're spot-on Notch

Every time Richard Fussell is selected in the team yes.

I always knew Leinster were going to win whilst keeping Clermont out in a by-the-skin-of-your-teeth tryline defence in the closing seconds!
Never ever doubted them...............................................

I Believe for every drop of rain that falls... A Blue flower grows...

Get over yourself Portus, once a Tigger - always a whiner.

See you in the Amlin next season.

Portnoy, are you related to King Canute?

Hang on!

My crisis of confidence is brought about by my club commercially exploiting its own fans to wear a banner ad for a multinational company (on its new shirt) at eighty quid a throw (and probably less than a tenner cost). That's exploitation.

If. If the club made clear its plans for the planned expansion of its site to 30000, and how it proposed to distribute the finance between corporate and fans' aspirations of any development would be helpful.

Already there's a proposed public car park and an hotel to raise rent (on land sold to the club from the council at a fraction of its market value).

This is the Tigers. Supposedly a proper rugby club.
Not a fan-based cash cow.

Portnoy wrote:Hang on!

My crisis of confidence is brought about by my club commercially exploiting its own fans to wear a banner ad for a multinational company (on its new shirt) at eighty quid a throw (and probably less than a tenner cost). That's exploitation.

If. If the club made clear its plans for the planned expansion of its site to 30000, and how it proposed to distribute the finance between corporate and fans' aspirations of any development would be helpful.

Already there's a proposed public car park and an hotel to raise rent (on land sold to the club from the council at a fraction of its market value).

This is the Tigers. Supposedly a proper rugby club.
Not a fan-based cash cow.

Im with Portnoy on this one. Ye guys have no idea.

Rugby is selling its soul, to the Company goal.

Thanks Gibbo. I thought I was on my own.

Where else could yo find a post-sixties hippy when you need one?

I dunno. I give up. Paris? Amsterdam? Leicester?

How many goes do I get bud?

But what you say is true. Its business man. And you - lilke me, are raging against a machine that will change rugby forever.

Phhokit man. All you can do is point it out. Which is what you've done. It wont make a hapeworth of differ though. Cant change or stop progress.
Apparently... its what the punters need and want. I don't think they do. Thats how it all works...

Mass commercial hypnotism.

The Corporate Beat goes on.

Rugby used to be about post school competing amongst themselves. Rugby sold it's soul when they allowed other clubs to play. That was a good thing wasn't it?

Excellent observation.

But, is Corporate Control a good thing?

Just watch the amatuers play then and skip the teenage angst.

Gibson wrote:I dunno. I give up. Paris? Amsterdam? Leicester?

How many goes do I get bud?

But what you say is true. Its business man. And you - lilke me, are raging against a machine that will change rugby forever.

Phhokit man. All you can do is point it out. Which is what you've done. It wont make a hapeworth of differ though. Cant change or stop progress.
Apparently... its what the punters need and want. I don't think they do. Thats how it all works...

Mass commercial hypnotism.

The Corporate Beat goes on.

Sorry, lads, just having to wipe down my screen having spat my coffee all over it! I can only assume you are joking? You live in a world that is dominated by the forces of capitalism, you've both earned your income contributing to those societies, you enjoy the benefits of the world you live in (I'm not sayig it's all good, by any stretch) ... and this is the best protest you can come up with?!

Down with that kinda ting Ted!

Of course its futile. It is inevitable. Doesn't mean we have to like it. Corporate domination will take the game further away from us. Like soccerball.

Dont coming running to Daddy when it happens.

The sheep-like SKY/X-Factor Generation rules. Harrrumph.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Gibson wrote:I dunno. I give up. Paris? Amsterdam? Leicester?

How many goes do I get bud?

But what you say is true. Its business man. And you - lilke me, are raging against a machine that will change rugby forever.

Phhokit man. All you can do is point it out. Which is what you've done. It wont make a hapeworth of differ though. Cant change or stop progress.
Apparently... its what the punters need and want. I don't think they do. Thats how it all works...

Mass commercial hypnotism.

The Corporate Beat goes on.

Sorry, lads, just having to wipe down my screen having spat my coffee all over it! I can only assume you are joking? You live in a world that is dominated by the forces of capitalism, you've both earned your income contributing to those societies, you enjoy the benefits of the world you live in (I'm not sayig it's all good, by any stretch) ... and this is the best protest you can come up with?!

DOWN WITH MESSY COFFEE DRINKERS!

Would that be Fair Trade spitting-coffee there Ted?

Fair Trade, that's not coffee, that's Barritt and Tuilagi