Playoff time - Tigers vs Sarries - Saturday 12th May 17:30 KO (Build-Up)

First topic message reminder :

Sarries team announced:

Saracens line-up vs Leicester Tigers

15 Alex Goode
14 David Strettle
13 Owen Farrell
12 Brad Barritt
11 Chris Wyles
10 Charlie Hodgson
9 Neil de Kock
1 Rhys Gill
2 Schalk Brits
3 Matt Stevens
4 Steve Borthwick ©
5 Mouritz Botha
6 Jackson Wray
7 Will Fraser
8 Ernst Joubert

16 Jamie George
17 John Smit
18 Carlos Nieto
19 Hugh Vyvyan
20 George Kruis
21 Richard Wigglesworth
22 Adam Powell
23 James Short

Tigers team

15 Geordan Murphy (c)
14 Horacio Agulla
13 Manusamoa Tuilagi
12 Anthony Allen
11 Alesana Tuilagi
10 Toby Flood
9 Ben Youngs
1 Marcos Ayerza
2 George Chuter
3 Dan Cole
4 George Skivington
5 Geoff Parling
6 Steve Mafi
7 Julian Salvi
8 Thomas Waldrom

Replacements
16 Tom Youngs
17 Logovi'i Mulipola
18 Martin Castrogiovanni
19 Graham Kitchener
20 Craig Newby
21 Sam Harrison
22 Billy Twelvetrees
23 Scott Hamilton



Not really my bag - the playoffs - so first I'll just congratulate the Quins on being Regular season champions.

However tickets seem to be selling pretty well but I don't know that it will be a full house.

But I want a Leicester victory not so much as a on-eyed Tiger, but just to express my opinion regarding the Sarries season-long negative approach.

Am I allowed to mention the Borthwick/Parling encounter?

That could be a a crucial deciding contest.

But I read 'Steve Borthwick ©'

[http://www.saracens.com/news/view.php?Id=6995]

Portnoy , cheers for that, it shouldn't have made me laugh but it did.

Looking at those two teams the only way I can see Saracens win is if Tigers implode.

Big ol' difference in quality in the 23's and if Saracens concede a single try then it could be too big a gap.

Expect lots of kicking from Hodgson/Farrell/Goode and lots of runnign from Tigers.

Well as long as Flood is fit then that is the team we all expected and wanted. Manu up against Farrell should be an interesting match up, Farrell is a solid tackler as he has shown for England but Manu can be a different story, see Tigers trying to target him and Hodgson with both Tuilagis if we can get on the front foot.

Very happy that it seems Salvi is fit as well and then the bench means there should be no let up. It will be an extremely tough game and we are going to need everyone to perform if we are going to win.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Portnoy , cheers for that, it shouldn't have made me laugh but it did.

Frankly the Sarries back line has defensive painted all over it.

Trench warfare maybe the the expectation - which may go some way to explain why it's not likely to be a sell-out.

Can't see anything other than a Tigers win. Can't understand Stevens starting with his recent scrum problems, thought Nieto would have been a much safer bet. Saracens will continue to miss Berger and Brown in the backrow.

As much as we've all complained about Cockerill at times over this season you have to hand it to him, he has built a formidable 20-25 man squad. When the majority of those players are available for Tigers then they are a class above any other team in the league. You have to wonder what their Euro season would have been like if this team was playing for the majority of it.

It seems that the game may be more personal for Tigers players than we thought.

I hope whichever team wins today can act with more magnanimity post match than the (unproven) accusations that have been levelled at Sarries after the thumping they gave Tigers at the start of the season.

LondonTiger wrote:It seems that the game may be more personal for Tigers players than we thought.

I hope whichever team wins today can act with more magnanimity post match than the (unproven) accusations that have been levelled at Sarries after the thumping they gave Tigers at the start of the season.

what accusations were they?

Tigers missing Flood and Salvi now.

I guess we'll see what the hype for Ford was all about as suddenly he is right in the lime light.

What an incredible stadium WR is!!

Any updates people?

How long left?

Anyone watching?

Leicester 24 - 15 Saracens

2 mins left.

Its over.

Harlequins vs Leicester Tigers final.

get in. Glad I gambled on final tickets a couple of months ago and there's two attacking teams in the final.

Sarries played quite well (Wray is coming on nicely), and even played some rugby in the first 20 minutes, but it's difficult to see how any neutral could want Sarries 'style' to win.

Sarries just don't have the attacking game necessary to open the opposition up. The 10, 12, 13 combo is so limited and needs changing. Sarries need to choose to only start one of Hodgson and Farrell and to find a decent 13 who can bring some creativity. If Tompkins isn't the answer then I think they could do worse than try Goode at 13 - he has a step, acceleration and a passing game which will release the wide players.

Difficult not to be impressed with George Ford.

Hopefully the final will be a reasonably open affair.

I wish that the Saints had won their semi. An East Midlands final would have been great. Considering the RWC affect in Sept/Oct.

Some stupid Saints who got themselves banned have a lot to answer for.

Did Bradley Barrit play today? I never detected him.

Hic!

Yaaay! We deserved it and looked the best of the four teams.

Honourable mention for Alex Goode. ( I kept calling him Andy) Some really fine work especially on the touchline.

Tigers Quins final. Dribbblllleee

Slobber.

Cheerio. Am going to do horrible things to a chicken.

yappysnap wrote:Tigers missing Flood and Salvi now.

I guess we'll see what the hype for Ford was all about as suddenly he is right in the lime light.

What an incredible stadium WR is!!

Not seen the match yet, how did Ford play?

nathan wrote:
Not seen the match yet, how did Ford play?

He showed he had real composure on the ball and regularly took the ball right up to the gainline and made the correct decision to pass/kick/run. His kicking out of hand was also superb. Obviously he still lacks bulk and his kicking could have been better but was solid. He showed that he is the most naturally talented Fly-Half England have.

He was adjudged motm. His place kicking remains flaky.

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:

nathan wrote:
Not seen the match yet, how did Ford play?

He showed he had real composure on the ball and regularly took the ball right up to the gainline and made the correct decision to pass/kick/run. His kicking out of hand was also superb. Obviously he still lacks bulk and his kicking could have been better but was solid. He showed that he is the most naturally talented Fly-Half England have.

cool thanks.

Who the hell let the sarries fans in with those loud horns that we heard at the footy world cup? They had better stamp them out as it's well annoying!

Portnoy wrote:Did Bradley Barrit play today? I never detected him.

Likewise JTH & Allen. It seemed like the only centre that turned up from either game was Downey.

What horns?

I heard no horns.

I am knackered after a long but elated drive home and will watch the game recording first thing in the morning.

First thoughts:

Clever by Matt Stevens to wear a kids shirt, looked impossible for Ayerza to get a bind.
Great start by Sarries, looking really threatening - then they started to play tight. In the second half the butchered some overlaps when moving the ball left to right (the direction they always looked better) usually because Jackson Wray messed it all up.
Waldrom needs to learn how to control the ball at the back of the scrum. Otherwise he was good.
Farrell needs to stop moaning at the ref, Dave Pearson got seriously peed off with him and that may have affected a couple of 50/50 calls.


And on to little George. He left 8 points in the locker missing a conversion from the left touch line, a penalty from 54m that landed on the cross bar and a penaltyt he should have got. His strike on the ball often sounded a bit heavy though.
Tactical kicking varied a little from the sublime to the okish. Ball in hand was the real treat with a good mix of passing and two cracking breaks, one in each half, second break leading to the second try. Oh and he made his tackles.

Finally - I hope Botha is ok. Him (and whoever else tried to double team Manu) went down hard and heavy. For a while it looked really serious for both players.

It was interesting to see 36 blanked off the bench.

Will there be an especial vendetta forthcoming next time we meet him?

Portnoy, cockerill only made the one change - Castro for Cole. It was not special treatment for 36, justthat Cockers only uses the bench if he feels it is needed - unlike so many coaches with their pre-programmed substitutions.

LondonTiger wrote:What horns?

I heard no horns.

I am knackered after a long but elated drive home and will watch the game recording first thing in the morning.

First thoughts:

Clever by Matt Stevens to wear a kids shirt, looked impossible for Ayerza to get a bind.
Great start by Sarries, looking really threatening - then they started to play tight. In the second half the butchered some overlaps when moving the ball left to right (the direction they always looked better) usually because Jackson Wray messed it all up.
Waldrom needs to learn how to control the ball at the back of the scrum. Otherwise he was good.
Farrell needs to stop moaning at the ref, Dave Pearson got seriously peed off with him and that may have affected a couple of 50/50 calls.


And on to little George. He left 8 points in the locker missing a conversion from the left touch line, a penalty from 54m that landed on the cross bar and a penaltyt he should have got. His strike on the ball often sounded a bit heavy though.
Tactical kicking varied a little from the sublime to the okish. Ball in hand was the real treat with a good mix of passing and two cracking breaks, one in each half, second break leading to the second try. Oh and he made his tackles.

Finally - I hope Botha is ok. Him (and whoever else tried to double team Manu) went down hard and heavy. For a while it looked really serious for both players.

the sarries fans have those vuvezulas, annoying as hell noise!

Just seen the second try, lovely offload by newby

I did not see the offload - as I was unable to see over the two tall buggers who jumperd up. I texted my brother (who was in Hathrow departures and told him Newby had scored).

I did not notice an vuvuzelas, I guess they sound more prominent on TV?

LondonTiger wrote:I did not see the offload - as I was unable to see over the two tall buggers who jumperd up. I texted my brother (who was in Hathrow departures and told him Newby had scored).

I did not notice an vuvuzelas, I guess they sound more prominent on TV?

First 20 minutes they were going, but to be fair they died down. Newby didnt score, it was mafi who finished it off, but it was a lovely offload in the tackle.

Portnoy wrote:It was interesting to see 36 blanked off the bench.

Will there be an especial vendetta forthcoming next time we meet him?

lol, you always look for something in nothing!

Ford played very well but his kicking from the tee was fairly rubbish. One of the commentators mentioned he has the lowest percentage in the league. Aside from that at about 50 minutes we got a stat that Ford had made 0 tackles and missed 1. Now i'm not sure how much you can trust that stat but that's not the sign of an international fly half. Austin Healy was quite critical of him at times.

Congrats Tigers, you were easily the better team on the day. I am very worried about the final now!

Oh and some one needs to tell Farrell to wind his neck in, he spoke to Pearson more then the captains did and any other ref would have told him to stick it.

yappysnap wrote:Ford played very well but his kicking from the tee was fairly rubbish. One of the commentators mentioned he has the lowest percentage in the league. Aside from that at about 50 minutes we got a stat that Ford had made 0 tackles and missed 1. Now i'm not sure how much you can trust that stat but that's not the sign of an international fly half. Austin Healy was quite critical of him at times.

Congrats Tigers, you were easily the better team on the day. I am very worried about the final now!

Oh and some one needs to tell Farrell to wind his neck in, he spoke to Pearson more then the captains did and any other ref would have told him to stick it.

Pearson did have a quiet word with him, but as I said earlier I then felt he may have erred on Tiger's side with a couple of 50/50 calls straight after.

The confirmed departures were in the matchday program withthe following all leaving Tigers:

Julian White
Alessana Tuilagi
Hoaracio Agulla
James Grindal
Geaorge Skivington
Jeremy staunton
Billy Twelvetrees
Calum Green
Ben Pienaar
Peter Bucknall.


Sad to see Green go, though I guess that means the prognosis on Louis Deacon is pretty good. Green could be a good signing for a team. He is a young (21), talented (former England U20) enforcer style lock.

LondonTiger wrote:The confirmed departures were in the matchday program withthe following all leaving Tigers:

Julian White
Alessana Tuilagi
Hoaracio Agulla
James Grindal
Geaorge Skivington
Jeremy staunton
Billy Twelvetrees
Calum Green
Ben Pienaar
Peter Bucknall.


Sad to see Green go, though I guess that means the prognosis on Louis Deacon is pretty good. Green could be a good signing for a team. He is a young (21), talented (former England U20) enforcer style lock.

i'd imagine that's freeing up a fair chuck of salary cap, especially the two wingers.

LondonTiger wrote:


Sad to see Green go, though I guess that means the prognosis on Louis Deacon is pretty good. Green could be a good signing for a team. He is a young (21), talented (former England U20) enforcer style lock.

I think Green is dropping down a division to Leeds, could be a good signing for them.


Also haven't heard many potential Sarries signings for next season. From yesterday's outing I think they are crying out for a proper 13 who has a good outside break and should also start Short more often. I think that would give them the penetration to convert the pressure they had in the first 20 into tries.

Yeah, just seen in The Rugby Paper that he has joined Leeds. Could be a good move all round.

yappysnap wrote:Ford played very well but his kicking from the tee was fairly rubbish. One of the commentators mentioned he has the lowest percentage in the league. Aside from that at about 50 minutes we got a stat that Ford had made 0 tackles and missed 1. Now i'm not sure how much you can trust that stat but that's not the sign of an international fly half. Austin Healy was quite critical of him at times.

Congrats Tigers, you were easily the better team on the day. I am very worried about the final now!

I'm certain Ford made his fair share of tackles. I remember a few great ones, like tackling Short(?) into touch near the end of the game. Sarries must have made an effort to target him, and force him to make tackles. He's not a big lad, but he has good technique, and doesn't shy away from the tackles. The kicks he missed weren't easy too. Bit harsh to say his tee kicking was fairly rubbish. He nailed a few good'uns. He does look to have the whole package. As close to Carter as England have every produced. Still got work to do, but that lad really is special.

Looking forward to the final. Glad it's the correct teams contesting it. Best team over the whole season vs best team since the World Cup. 1st vs 2nd.

May the best team win.

Ford had a very heavy contact off the tee. As if he was trying to hit it too hard.

There was one poor kick, but the other two misses were not shockers - especially the long range effort that landed on the top of the cross bar. I do not remember him missing any tackles, but it is not always so obvious who the defenders are from high in the stands.

As to goal kicking percentages - they have been good in 2012 (mainly LV cup), but not great at the start of the season - though in the main 36 was kicking then.

The heavy contact from Ford is unsurprising, he's had to work heavily on his kicking from the tee. From hand he has a good range and did well kicking into the wind in the first half but his range from the tee has always been an issue. Unlike twelvetrees and flood who are both over 6 foot and comfortably over 14 stone Ford has neither the long legged momentum in the strike or the weight to put behind the ball. Something he'll be working on this summer I'd imagine.

Even with those points kicking issues (though Farrell wasn't 100% either) he still put in the best display by a fly half this weekends AP semi finals. Quite a feat from a 19 year old.

Sam

If it's true that he's aiming to go to 13st+ this coming pre-season then I'm sure the range will come along with time.

Heard Flood's injury yesterday described as the world's worst kept secret. Is it generally thought likely that he'll be back for the final?

Mike Ford was telling every one who would listen that George would be starting on Thursday.

Word round the ground was that neither Flood nor Salvi participated in any full contact training during the week, so I suspect their initial selection was a touch of mind games by Cockers.

He insists that George will not start in the final and that Flood will be fit. Of course it could be that 36's skills are deemed more appropriate for a game with Quins.

Looking forward to the Quins-Tigers forward battle again now. Should be a hum dinger and hopefully very even.

Fingers crossed Evans will bring his 'A' game as Ford or Flood on form are very very good.

LondonTiger

The Twelvetrees comment makes sense. A lot of Quins' play involves Robshaw, Fa'asavalu, Easter, Marler and Turner-Hall carrying and offloading through the midfield, rather than flinging the ball wide. While Ford seems technically sound as a defender they may feel it's not the right moment for him to be facing that.

Equally of course Ford looks like a fantastic tactical kicker, and it seems that Quins' main problem right now is securing enough field position, so maybe he would be suited to it.

Surely this situation (a final vs Tigers) is exactly what Evans' A game exists for? I think he'll bring it. Or at least I've convinced myself!

It seems recently that the more we've relied on Evans the less reliable he's been. I can't think of a single top notch display from him this year.

Yay, just got my tickets for the final. No idea where they are as Tigers ticket office did not have those details, but 5 tickets bought.

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:


Sad to see Green go, though I guess that means the prognosis on Louis Deacon is pretty good. Green could be a good signing for a team. He is a young (21), talented (former England U20) enforcer style lock.

I think Green is dropping down a division to Leeds, could be a good signing for them.


Also haven't heard many potential Sarries signings for next season. From yesterday's outing I think they are crying out for a proper 13 who has a good outside break and should also start Short more often. I think that would give them the penetration to convert the pressure they had in the first 20 into tries.

Agree that Saracens need a proper 13. I have been saying this for a long long time to whoever will listen. Agree Short should have played.

Again I have been saying for sometime we need at least one tough scrummager - ideally a tight head. Again Stevens was shown to be pretty hopeless.

I thought Ford had a good game overall but he really needs to work on his place kicking - it was pretty woeful.

I thought there were two potential turning points - Strettle's near miss (not the first time we've heard that this season) and when Tuilagi knocked out Botha and Goode - Leicester consequently scored against 13 men which put daylight between them and victory. I still wonder whether Pearson should have stopped play.

Despite this I think Leicester were overall the better side (certainly in the 2nd half). Congratulations on the win - well deserved.

I also think overall Pearson did a good job.

Oh also I apologise on behalf of all Saracens fans for the fools who were blowing the horns. It was uncalled for.

I like WR - it's a good ground. Despite not getting the result this time it was a good trip.


I don't think Quins will be able to stop Leicester. It would be nice to see a different side pick up the trophy but it's unlikely in my opinion.

Also did no one see M.Tuilagi's blatant shoulder charge?

beshocked wrote:I thought Ford had a good game overall but he really needs to work on his place kicking - it was pretty woeful.

Woeful is rather over the top. While he had a heavy connection there was only one bad attempt. the other two misses were from wide on the touchline and the long range penalty that landed on the cross bar. He does need to keep working on the goal-kicking - but it was nowhere near woefull.

As to the "blatant" Manu shouldewr charge - when, on who?

All I know is that it was a sweet victory.

Saracens were dull as usual. Ford had Hodgeson on toast, despite his many purponents, Hodgeson is over-rated in my opinion and was kept quiet most of the game. I've said it before and i'll say it again, Saracens winning any title/trophy is a bad advert for the sport as a whole. They need to change the way they play or they're going to increasingly suffer, both in terms of support and their league position.

So, the two best teams over the regular season have prevailed. Unfortunately for Quins, I think Tigers will win...