Springboks vs England, squad announcements and matchday thread.

[Biltong]

First topic message reminder :

I will update as more information is released.

Springbok team announced for the first test vs England.

15 Zane Kirchner, caps 14
14 JP Pietersen, caps 42
13 Jean de Villiers (captain), caps 72
12 Frans Steyn, caps 47
11 Bryan Habana, caps 74
10 Morné Steyn, caps 34
9 Francois Hougaard, caps 15
8 Pierre Spies, caps 47
7 Willem Alberts, caps 9
6 Marcell Coetzee, caps 0
5 Juandré Kruger, caps 0
4 Eben Etzebeth, caps 0
3 Jannie du Plessis, caps 30
2 Bismarck du Plessis, caps 42
1 Beast Mtawarira, caps 32

Replacements:
16 Adriaan Strauss, caps 9
17 Coenie Oosthuizen, caps 0
18 Flip van der Merwe, caps 11
19 Keegan Daniel, caps 1
20 Ruan Pienaar, caps 51
21 Pat Lambie, caps 11
22 Wynand Olivier, caps 34

I am surprised and happy to see Eben etzebeth in the starting XV and Strauss on the bench, Meyer has gone for a 4-3 split on the bench which is interesting. The pack has 160 combined caps with 4 debutants, the back line has a combined cap of 302 caps.

I am actually rather impressed with Meyer's selections. The English may see this pack as vulnerable and inexperienced, but I think it is a rather exciting pack. full of mobility and physicality.

England Team:

15 Mike Brown, caps 3
14 Chris Ashton, caps 23
13 Manusamoa Tuilagi, caps 10
12 Brad Barritt, caps 5
11 Ben Foden, caps 26
10 Owen Farrell, caps 5
9 Ben Youngs, caps 17
8 Ben Morgan, caps 5
7 Chris Robshaw (C), caps 6
6 Tom Johnson, 0 caps
5 Geoff Parling, 2 caps
4 Mouritz Botha, 6 caps
3 Dan Cole, 25 caps
2 Dylan Hartley, 34 caps
1 Joe Marler, 0 caps


Replacements:
16 Lee Mears, 38 caps
17 Paul Doran Jones, 3 caps
18 Tom Palmer, 37 caps
19 Phil Dowson, 5 caps
20 Lee Dickson, 0 caps
21 Toby Flood, 46 caps
22 Jonathan Joseph, 0 caps

[anotherworldofpain]

its 3-1 bullsbok, scotland won remember?

He said "today" biltong. Why are you playing this fiddle today?

[Biltong]

Well done England you certainly came to play.

As Doc says, hard, unforgiving and incredibly physical.

What I liked was both teams played positive rugby.

[doctor_grey]

Oh well. Out to the garden. Helping my lads move some boulders.
Good match. I am sure we will be dissecting this one for quite a while.
Good weekend to all.

[anotherworldofpain]

Well done England you certainly came to play.

As Doc says, hard, unforgiving and incredibly physical.

What I liked was both teams played positive rugby.

Apart from the negative cynical parts.

[ChequeredJersey]

Well done Boks, I gather they bullied us a lot more in the second half?

How did Brown, JJ, Marler, Johnson look in the 2nd half?

[EnglishReign]

Now it's over I can start being objective. Well played SA, enjoyed the game. Habana back to his best, the cheeky little sod.

[yappysnap]

Well done England you certainly came to play.

As Doc says, hard, unforgiving and incredibly physical.

What I liked was both teams played positive rugby.

Apart from the negative cynical parts.

Your English is getting a lot better GG

[Hood83]

Well done England you certainly came to play.

As Doc says, hard, unforgiving and incredibly physical.

What I liked was both teams played positive rugby.

Apart from the negative cynical parts.

Appreciate you being magnanimous Biltong, and congrats on the win, awesome physicality. BUT - there was also a fair amount of cynical stuff and booting the ball away in panic. From both teams.

Alberts is a monster. I think unless we can stop him and Bismarck it could be a hammering next game.

[yappysnap]

SA physicality was massive in that second half and we paid the price for keeping Farrell at 10.

Next week we must have Youngs and Flood starting and Joseph needs to come on earlier maybe even at 13 rather then wing.

Not sure what else to do about the bench, we're never going to win with players like Mears, Palmer, Dowson and Dickson there but only Care for Dickson and Hask for Dowson seems likely.

Lastly we need to kick a lot less and play the ball.

[PJHolybloke]

Well the SA win wasn't a big surprise, but I'm faintly pleased with the overall game from an England perspective. I say faintly because I'm never going to be actually pleased with a defeat.

Well played South Africa, worthy winners, although England never wilted in the face of intense physicality, they just didn't have enough in response to hold their own.

The next game will be very interesting from a development point of view... for both teams.

You make your own luck and SA had the front foot enough to gaffer the second half and ride their chances with ruthless efficiency.

Can't argue with that.

[Biltong]

Well done England you certainly came to play.

As Doc says, hard, unforgiving and incredibly physical.

What I liked was both teams played positive rugby.

Apart from the negative cynical parts.

Appreciate you being magnanimous Biltong, and congrats on the win, awesome physicality. BUT - there was also a fair amount of cynical stuff and booting the ball away in panic. From both teams.

Alberts is a monster. I think unless we can stop him and Bismarck it could be a hammering next game.

I am not sure what you saw as cynical, when two teams play this kind of physical battle there is bound to be some handbags.

We kicked a ball into Farrel, Tuilagi goes into contact with an elbow. This and that. If you scrutinise most matches you will see some of it.

Overall both teams had good discipline.

[PJHolybloke]

Citing for Steyn coming up Biltong, filthy shoulder barge on Foden as he scored his try, no attempt to wrap his arms, has to be 12 months out...

[nathan]

Well done England you certainly came to play.

As Doc says, hard, unforgiving and incredibly physical.

What I liked was both teams played positive rugby.

Apart from the negative cynical parts.

Appreciate you being magnanimous Biltong, and congrats on the win, awesome physicality. BUT - there was also a fair amount of cynical stuff and booting the ball away in panic. From both teams.

Alberts is a monster. I think unless we can stop him and Bismarck it could be a hammering next game.

I am not sure what you saw as cynical, when two teams play this kind of physical battle there is bound to be some handbags.

We kicked a ball into Farrel, Tuilagi goes into contact with an elbow. This and that. If you scrutinise most matches you will see some of it.

Overall both teams had good discipline.

Most of the SA players were going into tackles with their shoulders. But i agree with you, i don't mind the odd handbags.

[yappysnap]

England need to get a bit more dog in the pack, unfortunately I can't see where it'll come from.

Fly in Attwood perhaps?

While we're at it if Barritt is crocked better fly in Twelvetrees, or any one other then Farrell at 12.

[yappysnap]

Perhaps Youngs on the bench for Mears?

[ChequeredJersey]

Let's see who stands up in the midweekers

[niwatts]

What is the opinion of the scrum experts on England's failing there?

At the beginning it was a problem with early engagements, which the ref seemed to suggest was down to Morgan initiating from the back. Once engagement got sorted SA were dominating, so problems with the English front row or was the issue in the steam room?

[ChequeredJersey]

Mix of both?

[Biltong]

So are you guys a little more convinced about our scrum?

[maestegmafia]

So are you guys a little more convinced about our scrum?

Never underestimated it...! I think Ireland missing Ross in the Six Nations game made England fans think they had a bigger asset than was apparent today.

[Biltong]

Well to be honest I think England should have made more of this test, their physicality at the break down in the first half did not gain them enough go forward.

SA predictably started slowly with a number of stupid errors, Next week we will be better, another week to get prepared and we should be more fluent, I beleive this test was an important win for Meyer.

The 4 debutants all had decent start. Etzebeth did well but needs to learn to assess his options better when recieving ball, he ran into tight defences and could have offloaded.

Kruger did well at the line outs, I was a little concerned that Marcell Coetzee weighing in at 106 KG would be too light, but his physicality was impressive.

Coenie Oosthuizen did very well on debut as well.

One change I would make is Andries Strauss starting with Bismarck on the bench, he made some silly line out throws and tried a bit too much on his own, he doesn't like looking to offload when tackled.

[mystiroakey]

So are you guys a little more convinced about our scrum?

I am yeah- you bossed us in it. I think it was the difference in honesty

[PJHolybloke]

Personally, I think there's more to come from this England squad than the South African one, Biltong.

Immense physicality is one thing, but being able to combine physicality with creativity is another, I don't think England got bullied today, there are a couple of players available who could improve England on that front, and I think England have to trust on the creative side and change the 10-12 axis. I think that there is more potential for creative development there from the England perspective than there is for South Africa.

Both teams have rebuilt since the WC and are in comparative stages of redevelopment, the only difference is that this is the same old South Africa, coming on in the same old way.

It's up to Lancaster to prove his credentials as a coach and find a way around the Tsunami that is Bokke rugby.

Good luck on that one Stewart.

[Zander]

Congratulations South Africa, you deserved that one. However this England team will be back, with a few more attacking changes, mainly Flood at flyhalf, we can have a better chance of beating South Africa.

[Biltong]

Yeah, look I don't doubt for one second England will improve, however PJ I disagree with you that SA don't have more room to improve.

1. Hougaard faafed like an old lady, he can improve a lot.
2. It took us forty minutes just to get numbers to the brekadown in time.
3. Bismarck needs to work on his line out throws.
4. Our new locking pair put little or no pressure on our lineout, it was their first match, that will change with confidence.
5. Our timing on runs at the ball with pace was off, that can improve.
6. Steyn misses 8 points to post, which is unlike him, he has work to do, it should never have gotten within 5, even if the English try was scored at the end.
7. Decision making at times were poor, especially when we led by five and hougaard took that tap penalty in front of the posts.

So yeah, another week and there will be more improvement.

[Biltong]

Both teams have rebuilt since the WC and are in comparative stages of redevelopment, the only difference is that this is the same old South Africa, coming on in the same old way.

Same old way?

Doubt that mate, we haven't had that pace in our game for a long time, quick ruck, hit the line up, go wide, hit the line up, go wide. Score both tries out wide.

When last did we see that from a bok team.

It may not be fancy, but there will certainly be more to come.

[nobbled]

Good game - intense and entertaining. Well done to SA for being the better side.
Lots of positives for England - best work I've seen them do at the breakdown for ages!
Please can we start Flood ? Can joseph play at 12 anyone?

[ChequeredJersey]

Robshaw the breakdown ninja

[ChequeredJersey]

I'll take that. At least it looks like we can win the 2nd test and the Foden at wing thing kind of worked, even if it reduced his counterattacking ability. Kick out on the full excepted, Brown didn't look out of place as some predicted. Ashton is back. Scrum needs work (would it have fared better with Corbs?)

[EnglishReign]

Should've brought 12trees.

[PJHolybloke]

Both teams have rebuilt since the WC and are in comparative stages of redevelopment, the only difference is that this is the same old South Africa, coming on in the same old way.

Same old way?

Doubt that mate, we haven't had that pace in our game for a long time, quick ruck, hit the line up, go wide, hit the line up, go wide. Score both tries out wide.

When last did we see that from a bok team.

It may not be fancy, but there will certainly be more to come.

Kick, chase, power on at the breakdown, quick ball in the red zone. It may have had a bit of pace bud, but I didn't see anything other than what I expected.

There may well be more to come, but it's going to be more of the same, I feel; like you said, not fancy - but you know I'm not a particular fan of fancy rugby.

I just think that there are more options available to England in terms of countering elements of South Africa's game whilst introducing new elements of their own.

Ultimately, I doubt it will be enough to do more than maybe snatch one game of the series, and that's a big maybe, but this is still a learning curve tour.

The question that remains to be answered is which team will learn most from it?

[Biltong]

I think both will learn from it, bigger question is, who will be able to use what they learn, or better yet, will they be allowed to use what they learn?

[PJHolybloke]

More ELV's? Or are you thinking along the lines of new tactics being snuffed out as quick as they are learned during this series?

We always thought this series would be a sizzler, and after the first game nothing has changed in my mind.

[yappysnap]

I'm thinking we need some bigger locks and hookers.

[doctor_grey]

I'm thinking we need some bigger locks and hookers.

I think we need tougher locks (think Courtney Lawes) and a stronger back-up hooker.
Also another Prop who can actually scrummage.
Whilst I am at it, how about a stand off who can distribute and get a back line going (oh, wait, he was on the bench).

[yappysnap]

Lawes is injured Dr. But I agree he may have helped, i'm really worried about next week as we just don't have the oomph.

Flood's gonna have his work cut out as the messiah if the forwards can't compete.

[Standulstermen]

I am really pleased for south Africa. I genuinely thought with the new guys that England would steal this one, especially as I watched the first half unfold. I was well impressed with etzebeth and particularly Coetzee. There was a scrum at the end where they annihilated England with two front rowers I can't recall seeing before.

Pienaar would add so much pace and width to your attacks though.

[Zander]

It was Mears and Doran-Jones. Doran-Jones was playing on the wrong side and Mears is no where near international quality let alone physical enough to play SA.

[Biltong]

I am really pleased for south Africa. I genuinely thought with the new guys that England would steal this one, especially as I watched the first half unfold. I was well impressed with etzebeth and particularly Coetzee. There was a scrum at the end where they annihilated England with two front rowers I can't recall seeing before.

Pienaar would add so much pace and width to your attacks though.

Ulsterman, the prop was 21 year old Coenie Oosthuizen, he has been the top pilferer for the same province Brussow plays for during the last two seasons, the hooker was Strauus, unlucky to only have played his 10th test today

[thomh]

So are you guys a little more convinced about our scrum?

Never underestimated it...! I think Ireland missing Ross in the Six Nations game made England fans think they had a bigger asset than was apparent today.

Hang on, England were dominating in that game even before Ross went off injured. Check the video on YouTube.

I'll admit I'd underestimated the SA scrum personally, but that doesn't mean the team did. Cole didn't have his best day today but he'll come back from it. Thought Marler had a really good debut, particularly that turnover 5 yards from our line.

[Morgannwg]

The England scrum isn't the potent weapon it has been known to be. England fans even think they beat Wales in the scrums when we last played each other but the reality is that they rarely achieved parity in that area. I don't think they have a bad scrum, I think Corbs and Cole are on route to become top class scrummagers. They're young guys who are yet to hit their peak but both do a very good job at the moment anyway.

[Standulstermen]

So are you guys a little more convinced about our scrum?

Never underestimated it...! I think Ireland missing Ross in the Six Nations game made England fans think they had a bigger asset than was apparent today.

Hang on, England were dominating in that game even before Ross went off injured. Check the video on YouTube.

I'll admit I'd underestimated the SA scrum personally, but that doesn't mean the team did. Cole didn't have his best day today but he'll come back from it. Thought Marler had a really good debut, particularly that turnover 5 yards from our line.

Maybe so but Ross got injured at the first scrum. I'm not for one second trying to undermine cole or Corbisiero who have come on leaps and bounds (as indeed have England, their physicality is very impressive) but the boks were a step up today. Future looks very bright for them. Is it just my imagination or didnthey play noticeably more attacking rugby than under PDV

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

Stand you make a good point here. Didn't the same Irish front row destroy England's at Lansdowne last season? I think a lot of English fans believed our scrum was always as poor as it was against England this season, and there's was always going to be as strong. While ours isn't exactly a world beater it has held up to better units that the English ones until theta fateful day at Twickenham. Jeez, even thinking about those scrums gives me shivers! I thought England scrummaged pretty well bar the last twenty minutes or so from what I watched, though I had one eye on something else.

[Bullsbok]

I cant wait for the second test , at the cauldron that is Ellis Park. At altitude , if England thought they had a rough time today imagine the feeling when the Boks have more time to train and know what to improve on @Biltong i agree with Hougaards assessment. That was one of his worst perfomances in a Bok jersey , he got charged down ,was consistently slow at the breakdown and expect for the little break he wasnt his usual self. I wonder if Heyeneke will make a brave call and stick ruan at 9 (although i didnt believe he was going to be tht good ,kudos to him) and Hougie on the bench for the last 30 when England start to feel the burn thanks to that lovely joburg air

[Biltong]

Evening Bullsbok, congratulations on your coach, he impressed me today. I agree it would be worthwhile to move Hougaard to the bench, he has got some thinking to do.

[Standulstermen]

Ruan to 9. You know it makes sense!

[Biltong]

[wales606]

Ruan to 9. You know it makes sense!

Rory will be upset...he might get injured.

[Standulstermen]

Ah he deserves it. I would be gutted but he is the best passer I have ever seen.

[ChequeredJersey]

View from Eddie Butler- http://m.guardian.co.uk/ms/p/gnm/op/swiRr6YYdH17RqQLSPe70eg/view.m?id=15&gid=sport/blog/2012/jun/09/england-width-pace-south-africa&cat=rugby-union

[Sponsored content]