My Questions About Ireland

Yeah, listen mods and fellow posters, sorry to start another thread about Ireland. I do apologise Just feel having some separate yet parallel discussions would benefit the site. Things can get a bit sidetracked on the main thread, actual discussion becomes hard.

ANYWAY, I have some questions about the Ireland team.

-Is Chris Henry injured or is he just fifth choice?
-Why keep McFadden but drop Zebo?
-Who is going to cover fullback?
-Was O'Mahony really worse than Heaslip?
-Can we win without quicker service from 9? Really expected to see Reddan not Murray. Although I would persevere with Murray (he is the future)

These things leave me with serious doubts but well done Kidney for keeping the faith with Tuohy and Murray. Kind of feel dropping Zebo is a really reactionary call. McFadden was much worse for me. Agree with the recall of Trimble, not mad about D'Arcy but once you were going to keep McFadden on the wing he was the only option. Harsh though it is, I'm glad to see Loughney out of the 22. Wish him well but he cost us last time. Dropping Cave is harsh but he had a brief chance and he definitely didn't take that chance so it's the right call. Hopefully we'll see him in the third test.

What I don't get Notch, is why O'Mahony and Zebo get dropped for this game, but Murray is still starting. McFadden too. Rava posted a link where Kidney gives his reasoning behind Murray starting over Reddan and it is a bit.. bizarre really. Basically he wants to stick with Murray and give him a chance to grow. So why does he drop POM and Zebo as well? He acknowledges that Reddan and Sexton have a brilliant partnership going, but he says "Murray and Sexton have played some games too" or words to that effect.

As for Henry, I would rather he just comes back and trains with Ulster. I don't see the point of him being there at all.

I would really love for this to not turn into a province vs province fest. Honestly, when it comes to Ireland I couldn't care less who plays as long as they are worthy of the shirt. As an Ulster fan we were used to having perhaps one player in O'Sullivan's panels and my desire to see Ireland perform to their peak was never changed.

So your questions which are all good ones.
-I haven't a clue. Named in some English papers as the best 7 in the Heineken Cup, I think by Stephen Jones no less who loathes Irish rugby, but not good enough even for the bench? I genuinely don't get it.
-Lunacy.
-I asked the same question and Valjester suggested D'Arcy. In other words we don't have anyone. Look at what happened when Paddy Wallace had to do it against Wales. Despite being the best 12 in provincial rugby this season his reputation amongst southern fans has never recovered.
- Yes, he lacks the physicality and concentration at the moment to be truly effective. It's not a talent issue, O'Mahony just needs to mature for Munster. Heaslip for me looks unfocused, out of shape and in bad form.
- I agree to an extent as I don't think Reddan is much better than Murray. We have genuine problems at 9. Put it in perspective, neither Murray or Reddan who even get on the bench of any other Six Nations side bar the Italians.

Cave, who was tremendous for Ulster this season, plays badly in a badly performing side for 15 minutes playing off the bench and deserves to be dropped, but D'Arcy plays poorly for 18 months and walks right back in? My mind boggles.

Look, there's not much between Henry and McLaughlin as players, bar Henry is better at openside and eight whereas McLaughlin is a better blindslide. One of them has to sit it out. I don't have a problem with that. Just wonder if Henry is still carrying the injury he had that kept him out of the Heineken Semi.

Murray and Sexton have played games because Kidney has always refused
d to pick the Leinster combination. It's one of his stranger decisions. He's starting to fray under the pressure I feel. We're in the same position as we were 4 years ago and he knows it. He knows he's under scrutiny and even the sympathetic media view towards him is on the turn. His comments in the press are becoming more and more bizarre.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Cave, who was tremendous for Ulster this season, plays badly in a badly performing side for 15 minutes playing off the bench and deserves to be dropped, but D'Arcy plays poorly for 18 months and walks right back in? My mind boggles.

There is a strange mix of conservative calls and interesting ones. For instance he's stuck with Tuohy over DOC, which I thought he might not do. But one injury has sent him scurrying back to the comfort blanket and busted flush that is D'Arcy-BOD. It's unfortunate we lost Earls. But this isn't productive.

It's a strange selection. I'm still trying to get my head around it.

-Is Chris Henry injured or is he just fifth choice? He can't seem to gain favour with DK
-Why keep McFadden but drop Zebo? The will remain unanswered for all time
-Who is going to cover fullback? Someone incabable of the job
-Was O'Mahony really worse than Heaslip? Nope
-Can we win without quicker service from 9? See answer from above

Notch, it sort of messes up the argument about bringing Duffy over Gilroy doesn't it? Duffy isn't actually used when we thought he must be in the 22 as he covers fullback. He might as well have brought Gilroy and played him in the 22. We have no cover anyway.

I have zero issue with McLaughlin over Henry. In truth, if I was selecting the team prior to the series I would have picked an all Leinster back row. I am a big McLaughlin fan, so much so that I think he should be in the team at second row if it came to it. So this isn't one of those ones from fans where they say 'BeJesus! You haven't picked X from my province- he has to go!' If we are serious about looking at players then put Henry on the bench. I think he and O'Brien might work well together, Henry could share the work at the breakdown an fit might free up O'Brien to do a bit more carrying which is, after all, what he is best at. O'Mahony was average against NZ. He did some good things, but lacked physicality and lacked concentration at times. He is just too wet behind the ears at present, but nothing that honing his craft this season won't help. He has a big future in a green jersey, but for the present he isn't quite there yet. We have to get over what I have drunkenly terms 'cult of personality' selections where the best individual players are picked rather than what make the best unit. Just look at Wales. On paper I wouldn't have Lydiate near a green jersey. I think it might have been you Notch that coined the best phrase about him by saying you were Lydiate agnostic. Me too. I don't get him. I don't get what he does bar tackling. He doesn't carry, he doesn't steal and turnover ball. He tackles. Like Joe Worsley. And yet, and yet that back row unit have schooled us with various personel on the previous two occasions. That is a unit where they are much greater than the sum of their parts.

Rory i think he just has something against gilroy sure just look at the starting 15 we have a centre on the wing instead of gilroy who played really well all season

Murray seems to be going backwards rather than growing and his lack of urgency is not what Ireland need - he looks lost and needs to go and rethink his game. Maybe he's looked good behind the Munster pack and assumptions have been made. Just get a basic 9 there for now as Sexton is class. The balance of the back row needs to be addressed, individually you have 3 great players, collectively they are not a unit and I thought the Munster lad fronted up well. For what its worth (probably not a lot) I would have chosen this back line in the 6 Nations against England

9 - Boss
10 - Sexton
11 - Kearney
12 - BOD
13 - Bowe
14 - Fitzgerald
15 - Kearney

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Notch, it sort of messes up the argument about bringing Duffy over Gilroy doesn't it? Duffy isn't actually used when we thought he must be in the 22 as he covers fullback. He might as well have brought Gilroy and played him in the 22. We have no cover anyway.

Precisely. In fact, rodders will be laughing now, because Gilroy would be as good at fullback as anyone else in the 22 outside Kearney. More really weird logic from Kidney.

Another question that is worth asking here Notch, was the criticism from fans towards O'Sullivan as bad as it has been for Kidney in the past year? I just feel this Irish team is in overall crisis, and even if it isn't, I would say a majority of fans now perceive it that way. I just can't see how the IRFU can possibly given him another Six Nations campaign, but if they leave it to after this series do they have time to make an appointment?

Well I could genuinely see why Duffy would be selected over Gilroy (but not Kearney Jr) if he had actually used Duffy. He doesn't use him, and we have no full back cover anyway. Bizarre call again. I too would have liked to see Henry get some sort of chance on this tour. I guess there is one more game, but I'm not holding my breath.

I think this is a good opportunity to try something new at 8 over Heaslip as well, who just isn't pulling his weight.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Another question that is worth asking here Notch, was the criticism from fans towards O'Sullivan as bad as it has been for Kidney in the past year? I just feel this Irish team is in overall crisis, and even if it isn't, I would say a majority of fans now perceive it that way. I just can't see how the IRFU can possibly given him another Six Nations campaign, but if they leave it to after this series do they have time to make an appointment?

No, I can't see Kidney going before the Autumn Internationals. But the Six Nations is a possibility for a new coach. Just depends on who is interested. Mot many would be, I sense.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Another question that is worth asking here Notch, was the criticism from fans towards O'Sullivan as bad as it has been for Kidney in the past year? I just feel this Irish team is in overall crisis, and even if it isn't, I would say a majority of fans now perceive it that way. I just can't see how the IRFU can possibly given him another Six Nations campaign, but if they leave it to after this series do they have time to make an appointment?

I wouldnt worrie about time i just want him gone NOW! The quicker he goes the better...

What is the sound of one hand clapping? The same as an Irish thread without talk about the provinces and Kidney. Not even Jonah Lomu pays that amount of attention to Kidney.

The provinces haven't come into this? I haven't even given the provinces a thought. That is why Notch created this new thread, to escape from all that rubbish on the other match thread. Kidney is our coach, unfortunately, so we do like to discuss what he is doing with the team.

Kidney is the man at the centre of all this either way. He's in a tough spot, but he's also had a lot of time to stamp his own mark on the team and used up a lot of patience and goodwill in the last three years.

I feel sorry for him. He really cares, he really wants Ireland to be successful. But he doesn't possess the skills as a coach to make it happen. It's a nasty thing, waiting for the axe to fall. Especially when it's such a fundamentally decent bloke.

Give it time Rory. It'll happen. It was a noble effort but all roads in Ireland point to ...

Just ignore me. I'm sleepy, grumpy and so close yet so far to the weekend and kick off.

You are probably right, but honestly mate it is one guy who turns it into a provincial argument, so as long as he isn't here, it won't happen. The problem is as soon as he finds this thread, you are right, it will erupt into a Munster/Kidney vs everyone else thing.

Notch wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Another question that is worth asking here Notch, was the criticism from fans towards O'Sullivan as bad as it has been for Kidney in the past year? I just feel this Irish team is in overall crisis, and even if it isn't, I would say a majority of fans now perceive it that way. I just can't see how the IRFU can possibly given him another Six Nations campaign, but if they leave it to after this series do they have time to make an appointment?

No, I can't see Kidney going before the Autumn Internationals. But the Six Nations is a possibility for a new coach. Just depends on who is interested. Mot many would be, I sense.

I don't know Notch, I would have thought there are a few quality coaches out there who'd love to get there hands on a squad filled with natural, god-given talent and transform it's fortunes. Surely there must be someone out there, some beacon of hope. Eddie......Eddie.....are you still there Eddie

Notch wrote:Kidney is the man at the centre of all this either way. He's in a tough spot, but he's also had a lot of time to stamp his own mark on the team and used up a lot of patience and goodwill in the last three years.

I feel sorry for him. He really cares, he really wants Ireland to be successful. But he doesn't possess the skills as a coach to do that. It's a nasty thing, waiting for the axe to fall. Especially when it's such a fundamentally decent bloke.

+1
If I met Declan Kidney down the street I'd walk over to him, shake him hand and say thanks for the Grand slam. If I was a Munster I'd say thanks for helping is become one the top teams in Europe from nothing. I want Ireland to successful and when it comes to the green shirt I couldn't care less about Ulster. They are completely irrelevant to me. Ireland are in crisis and I think its solely down to the tactics and selection of Kidney and his makeshift coaching panel.

"If I met Declan Kidney down the street I'd walk over to him, shake him hand and say thanks for the Grand slam"

You'd be shaking the hand of the wrong man.

He seems like a decent, humble kind of man but as a coach he has taken his squad of heavily talented players and ground them into mediocrity with his inability to see what is right in front of him. Claims of selecting on form are countered by actual selections out of form and out of position. It's a joke and the sooner that clock hurries up and hits zero the sooner we may be able to save some kind of respect for this Irish side and extract some decent performances from players who are the best in the NH.

I don't get the Murray selection now.
I can see bringing in McLoughlin as part of his policy of trying out new players.
I would love to see Henry play too.
I don't think Kidney is an awful coach. I would like to see someone else coach the team now but I don't think that he has "ground down" talented players into mediocrity. The losses in the 6 n were not by large margins, and I don't think that he can be blamed for the lack of tight head props. Hopefully we can find a coach to take over who will improve how they play but there's no way the man is as bad as people make out.

I don't think Kidney will leave. I think he honestly believes he can turn around our bad fortune (poor tactics and selection we call it!). He still has the best part of a year on his contact and I think he will dig his heels in until then.

Wasn't it BOD that apparently said that he learnt nothing under Kidneys reign at Leinster? (btw, I'm only mentioning Leinster because it's in relation to the two people) It was brought up at few times when Kidney was first given the Irish job. I wonder does he still think the same?

Pete330v2 wrote:"If I met Declan Kidney down the street I'd walk over to him, shake him hand and say thanks for the Grand slam"

You'd be shaking the hand of the wrong man.

Sorry, I hate this attitude and it does no credit to Irish fans. Kidney did bring us the grand slam, and no amount of effort by posters like this by people simply trying to make cheap insults will take away from it. I don't like where we are now, but it was Kidney and his coaching staff that brought us over the line that Eddie O'Sullivan failed time and again to do.

"I would like to see someone else coach the team now but I don't think that he has "ground down" talented players into mediocrity"

How to best describe the way DK has our very best, most talents players playing when he coaches them? Mediocre is a word I would use. Other words I won't be allowed to use on these boards.

Can't see why the Irish aren't utilising Henry to be honest. NZ picked your defence apart last time out and he would be a great way strengthening that area. He was Ulster's star player from an English/Tigers stand point this season and the likes of SOB and Heaslip aren't going to get through the required work against NZ, they need a work horse alongside them.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Can't see why the Irish aren't utilising Henry to be honest. NZ picked your defence apart last time out and he would be a great way strengthening that area. He was Ulster's star player from an English/Tigers stand point this season and the likes of SOB and Heaslip aren't going to get through the required work against NZ, they need a work horse alongside them.

are you suggesting we drop SOB?the only guy who actually performed well against NZ

Drop Heaslip, move SOB to 8? Ireland didn't struggle at the breakdown which seems to be Henry's area of expertise. I think Henry would be a good option he is also a decent tackler.

RubyGuby wrote:Murray seems to be going backwards rather than growing and his lack of urgency is not what Ireland need - he looks lost and needs to go and rethink his game. Maybe he's looked good behind the Munster pack and assumptions have been made. Just get a basic 9 there for now as Sexton is class. The balance of the back row needs to be addressed, individually you have 3 great players, collectively they are not a unit and I thought the Munster lad fronted up well. For what its worth (probably not a lot) I would have chosen this back line in the 6 Nations against England

9 - Boss
10 - Sexton
11 - Kearney
12 - BOD
13 - Bowe
14 - Fitzgerald
15 - Kearney

Class back line. I like it.

Fancy a job?

We should drop Heaslip, not SOB. O'Brien was far and away our best backrow previously and caused NZ problems. Henry does the same role for Ulster as O'Brien did last weekend, which is probably why he's not there.

That said, maybe two of those guys are what we need?

The backrow I's have picked would be:
6, SOB
7, Henry
8, POM

Wingers:
One of Trimble, Gilroy, D Kearney

Centers:
Cave
BOD


Heaslip cannot get off the team. He wasn't too bad against NZ at the weekend but theres no way he should be a cast iron certainty on every team.

Thomond wrote:Drop Heaslip, move SOB to 8? Ireland didn't struggle at the breakdown which seems to be Henry's area of expertise. I think Henry would be a good option he is also a decent tackler.

SOB was one of the reasons we didn't struggle at the breakdown so I don't think we should move him. I think he's our best ball carrier but we either want him to play 7 our we don't. I think he's really settled in this position and it's clear to see it's benefiting him. If anything I'd move POM to 8, Heaslip needs a boot up the arse.

The number on their shirt doesn't matter, we make way too big a deal of the number a guy wears .We don't need a "classic 7" the backrow is a unit, each guy needs to be pretty great at every aspect of backrow play. SOB will play well whatever number he wears because he does a similar job whatever jersey he wears.

Maybe there are some similarities in form between Ryan Jones and Heaslip - Heaslip coming on with 30 to go would be a great prospect - Its all about getting the balance and the dynamic right. Individually Irelands back row is better than Wales, collectively they are not

I think we should use O'Brien far more in attack though. He doesn't have to move from 7 to do this either, he could be a fantastic link man from 7, we just need to pick the team right. He is a clever player, if you have watched him recently he is very good at drawing in the defender to create space for his outside man. I want to see him used more in attack, that was a weakness against NZ, big ball carrying options. He is our best. He needs to take the ball at pace though.

Yeah but individually, Heaslip isn't really pulling his weight IMO. Plus the welsh balance in the back row is overrated but I have already discussed this multiple times. They don't need any ball carriers in their back row, because their backs are so big.

Thomond wrote:The number on their shirt doesn't matter, we make way too big a deal of the number a guy wears .We don't need a "classic 7" the backrow is a unit, each guy needs to be pretty great at every aspect of backrow play. SOB will play well whatever number he wears because he does a similar job whatever jersey he wears.

I'd agree to a certain extent but the onus is on him to get to the breakdown quick and win ball on the ground, he done that at least 3-4 times last week. If he's turning over ball we can't expect him to punch holes at the same time, but you're right they all need to take on responsibility.

I know I've already said that Heaslip needs a boot up the arse but I don't think he's been terrible, in fact he's been okay. We're so use to him been great over the last few years that when he doesn't live up to those performances we question him. My beef is that we have options and he needs to realise that he's not a certain starter so drop him and then see how he reacts. We might just see the old Jamie return.

are you suggesting we drop SOB?the only guy who actually performed well against NZ

Nope LF4L I was thinking more along the lines of putting the tackle machine Henry in there to strengthen your defence and allow SOB to hunt for turnovers and ball carrying opportunities rather than have to scrap so much in the tight exchanges. Bring in a work horse and free up the most dynamic Irish flanker.

O'Brien is a player who performs much better in the loose aspects of the game rather than the tight exchanges, that is for sure. The question is, how do we utilise him in this way? Who do we use as our work horse? O'Mahony looks like a good player at this, and he can carry through heavy traffic better than O'Brien can. He doesn't need to be taking the ball at pace. He should have started this game IMO.

Kidney's words on the retention of McFadden on the right wing.

"We could (switch), but left wing and right are two totally different positions," said Kidney, "so if you're exposed on the right you're definitely going to be exposed on the left."

So he's happy to leave the right wing exposed simply because if he switched the left wing would be even more exposed?

My mind is boggled!!!!

Rory, what's your preferred backrow for this game?

I don't really know honestly. I'm just letting Kidney pick whoever he wants at this point, I don't think it would make a difference anyway. I would have liked to see a new combination, mainly a new 8 over Heaslip, but it wouldn't make any difference to the game.

It is a pretty dark place for irish rugby like. I just don't care anymore.

Pete330v2 wrote:Kidney's words on the retention of McFadden on the right wing.

"We could (switch), but left wing and right are two totally different positions," said Kidney, "so if you're exposed on the right you're definitely going to be exposed on the left."

So he's happy to leave the right wing exposed simply because if he switched the left wing would be even more exposed?

My mind is boggled!!!!

McFadden is a centre anyway? Nice logic Kidney.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I don't really know honestly. I'm just letting Kidney pick whoever he wants at this point, I don't think it would make a difference anyway. I would have liked to see a new combination, mainly a new 8 over Heaslip, but it wouldn't make any difference to the game.

It is a pretty dark place for irish rugby like. I just don't care anymore.

I don't believe that for a second mate, you're one of the most passionate Irish supporters on here as far as I can see. Keep the chin up, the good times will come again

But Trimble seems to favour the right wing more than the left wing! He's comfortable enough on both but has always looked more dangerous on the right for Ireland as far as I'm concerned. He came off an indifferent 6N at 11. Had a great summer series before the RWC at 14

Right wing and left wing are different positions. And McFadden isn't really comfortable in either

Even trying to give him the benefit of the doubt that explanation makes no sense.

Gretgael1 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I don't really know honestly. I'm just letting Kidney pick whoever he wants at this point, I don't think it would make a difference anyway. I would have liked to see a new combination, mainly a new 8 over Heaslip, but it wouldn't make any difference to the game.

It is a pretty dark place for irish rugby like. I just don't care anymore.

I don't believe that for a second mate, you're one of the most passionate Irish supporters on here as far as I can see. Keep the chin up, the good times will come again

Haha, yeah thanks, I'm sure I will be on these forums cheering my head off for Ireland over the weekend, but today I'm not really in the mood to even discuss Ireland anymore, because I don't know what direction we are going or anything.

Notch wrote:But Trimble seems to favour the right wing more than the left wing! He's comfortable enough on both but has always looked more dangerous on the right for Ireland as far as I'm concerned. He came off an indifferent 6N at 11. Had a great summer series before the RWC at 14

Right wing and left wing are different positions. And McFadden isn't really comfortable in either

Even trying to give him the benefit of the doubt that explanation makes no sense.

Exactly, I just don't know what to say, I really don't.

Julien Savea is going down McFaddens win again. What are the odds he'll be targeted in the backs?