What Make the Star Shine?

2012 - IRB Junior Player of the Year: Jan Serfontein (South Africa)
2011 - IRB Junior Player of the Year: George Ford (England)
2010 - IRB Junior Player of the Year: Julian Savea (New Zealand)
2009 - IRB Junior Player of the Year: Aaron Cruden (New Zealand)
2008 - IRB Junior Player of the Year: Luke Braid (New Zealand)
2007 - IRB International U19 Player of the Year: Robert Fruean (New Zealand)
2006 - IRB International U19 Player of the Year: Josh Holmes (Australia)
2006 - IRB International U21 Player of the Year: Lionel Beauxis (France)
2005 - IRB International U19 Player of the Year: Isaia Toeava (New Zealand)
2005 - IRB International U21 Player of the Year: Tatafu Polota-Nau (Australia)
2004 - IRB International U19 Player of the Year: Jeremy Thrush (New Zealand)
2004 - IRB International U21 Player of the Year in association with Waterford Crystal: Jerome Kaino (New Zealand)
2003 - IRB U19 Player of the Year: Jean Baptiste Payras (France)
2003 - IRB U21 Player of the Year in assoc. with Waterford Crystal: Ben Atiga (New Zealand)
2002 - IRB U19 Player of the Year: Luke McAlister (New Zealand)
2002 - IRB U21 Player of the Year, in assoc. with Waterford: Pat Barnard (South Africa)
2001 - IRB Young Player of the Year: Gavin Henson (Wales)

Of these players identify at age group level as best player of the year very few make the star quality to the senior team.

World cup hero Jerome Kaino and Australian ball carrier Tatafu Polota-Nau probably the big successful story there follow by promise of Aaron Cruden. Some get to the level but ultimate are a bit dissapointment such as Luke McAlister and Isaia Toeava and not standing out like they do in the age group team.

Some not make the step up at all such as Ben Atiga, Braid and Fruean. Least say about Gavin Henson the better because (a) he was terrible and (b) will upset some fans to say that...and of course "jury still out" on Julian Savea and George Ford because they don't have a chance yet.

So can we make the prediction about the young talent? is the picking process justified? how they miss megastar like Dan Carter and Chris Ashton? do they rely on too much pick the player from the winning team? Is it fair to miss out star players from lesser change teams like Scotland, for example rising star Tim Visser and Shingler?

Where come from the stars of the game that not shining at this level? Will this year winner Jan Serfontein make the splash or belly flop for the growing up Springboks? and what is the magical sprinkle dust that turn an age group star into a adult world megastar?

Its a good discussion.

Personally I dont think the system is especially flawed or that there is any magic formula.

The guys who win are the guys who stand out in each particular U20 Rugby World Cup. It is performance based and only offers a window into how a player performed for about six weeks.

It makes perfect sense that some guys will peak there and then, never to progress further. Other lads will develop a year or two years later.

P.S. - I love your Henson comments !!

i always argue, talent makes a good player. talent and attitude make an exceptional player. i think if you look at the players that have made it they have both attributes.

I think you can see this even at the lower levels of sport. you have guys with so much talent and a terrible attitude and never fulfil that promise.

Then you have guys with the right attitude and maybe not as much talent and they become more valuable player to a team

Interesting post AWOP. Rugby is a team game. Every year we get awards to individual players who would be nothing without the players around them.

Sure we can look at moments of individual brilliance and make that stand out more in our minds when looking back on a tournament but really it's the collective effort that makes a win or a victory. Maybe these young kids stood out for breaking tackles or scoring tries but you stand out more in the memory if you are able to combine well with your team mates. It's all very well to get noticed but often it's the unnoticed work that makes a difference.

Perhaps its because in many instances... truly world class players bypass U20 rugby altogether. JW was leading ENG at 19, George North the same. If he played George Ford would have improved ENG no end this year... the same goes if Goosen hadn't been injured for the boks.. thats probably 2 of the best U20 players in world rugby today, neither featured.

Did James O'Connor ever play U20 rugby?

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Interesting post AWOP. Rugby is a team game. Every year we get awards to individual players who would be nothing without the players around them.

Sure we can look at moments of individual brilliance and make that stand out more in our minds when looking back on a tournament but really it's the collective effort that makes a win or a victory. Maybe these young kids stood out for breaking tackles or scoring tries but you stand out more in the memory if you are able to combine well with your team mates. It's all very well to get noticed but often it's the unnoticed work that makes a difference.

I read the artcile from NZ Herald yesterday about Conrad Smith (here is a LINK for those who think I am lying untrustable foreigner and so my thread dont get delete) : http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=10815816

They saying that a lot of quiet work is done by Conrad Smith and make the all blacks successful and but he not ever get the big award of plaudit to "best center" and all talk was about BOD who did nothing on the tour. Which might be true except this artcle! and maybe he is the best center. It also remind me of Aaron Mauger who do so much for the all blacks but never the poster or the advertising campaign.

He's a great example AWOP of a player who doesn't get a song and dance assessment of his performances because he's so consistent. You'd only sit up and notice if he wasn't there and then realise how much he does on attack and defence.

So he's a type of player who doesn't get the accolades but that is a good thing. When someone like SBW grabs the headlines and everyone talks about your special offloading abilities it's very hard to not go into a tackle and not have that mindset of I'm going to throw a miracle pass here.

What can you identify about Conrad Smith's game. He's not big but defensively he's very good in the tackle and positioning him and others around him on defence. He's not super quick but seems deceptively quick because he's able to break the line or avoid the tackle to get an offload.

anotherworldofpain wrote:2012 - IRB Junior Player of the Year: Jan Serfontein (South Africa)
2011 - IRB Junior Player of the Year: George Ford (England)
2010 - IRB Junior Player of the Year: Julian Savea (New Zealand)
2009 - IRB Junior Player of the Year: Aaron Cruden (New Zealand)
2008 - IRB Junior Player of the Year: Luke Braid (New Zealand)
2007 - IRB International U19 Player of the Year: Robert Fruean (New Zealand)
2006 - IRB International U19 Player of the Year: Josh Holmes (Australia)
2006 - IRB International U21 Player of the Year: Lionel Beauxis (France)
2005 - IRB International U19 Player of the Year: Isaia Toeava (New Zealand)
2005 - IRB International U21 Player of the Year: Tatafu Polota-Nau (Australia)
2004 - IRB International U19 Player of the Year: Jeremy Thrush (New Zealand)
2004 - IRB International U21 Player of the Year in association with Waterford Crystal: Jerome Kaino (New Zealand)
2003 - IRB U19 Player of the Year: Jean Baptiste Payras (France)
2003 - IRB U21 Player of the Year in assoc. with Waterford Crystal: Ben Atiga (New Zealand)
2002 - IRB U19 Player of the Year: Luke McAlister (New Zealand)
2002 - IRB U21 Player of the Year, in assoc. with Waterford: Pat Barnard (South Africa)
2001 - IRB Young Player of the Year: Gavin Henson (Wales)

Of these players identify at age group level as best player of the year very few make the star quality to the senior team.

World cup hero Jerome Kaino and Australian ball carrier Tatafu Polota-Nau probably the big successful story there follow by promise of Aaron Cruden. Some get to the level but ultimate are a bit dissapointment such as Luke McAlister and Isaia Toeava and not standing out like they do in the age group team.

Some not make the step up at all such as Ben Atiga, Braid and Fruean. Least say about Gavin Henson the better because (a) he was terrible and (b) will upset some fans to say that...and of course "jury still out" on Julian Savea and George Ford because they don't have a chance yet.

So can we make the prediction about the young talent? is the picking process justified? how they miss megastar like Dan Carter and Chris Ashton? do they rely on too much pick the player from the winning team? Is it fair to miss out star players from lesser change teams like Scotland, for example rising star Tim Visser and Shingler?
Where come from the stars of the game that not shining at this level? Will this year winner Jan Serfontein make the splash or belly flop for the growing up Springboks? and what is the magical sprinkle dust that turn an age group star into a adult world megastar?

Oh, you are a one, AWOP, they'll be baying for your blood after that!!

BOD hasn't been among the world's best 2 centres for 5 years. I don't think anyone in rugby thinks he is above Smith. In fact I think many are beginning to feel it may be a good time now for him to walk away from test rugby... I can't see him getting into the test side for the lions... he'll need a real upsurge in performance (something we haven't seen in a couple of seasons now).

I would say that at the moment we are in a bit of a lull when it comes to centres.

about 5-8 years ago I think we were at a all time peak with players like Jauzion, BOD, Mortlock, Giteau, Umaga, De Villiers & Fioure all competiting with each other.

currently the quality isn't quite there bar Smith... all other sides have journeyman, fading giants or potentially great players i.e. Basteraud & Tuilagi but no standouts.

...other than Nick de Luca?!

ok ok... Jamie Noon & Earl Rose to be added to the list... bowed down to reality!

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:You'd only sit up and notice if he wasn't there and then realise how much he does on attack and defence.

We certainly noticed in 2007 eh Kia

fa0019 wrote:ok ok... Jamie Noon & Earl Rose to be added to the list... bowed down to reality!

No Mat Tait?

jokes aside I think Matt Tait alongside Ollie Smith are 2 players ENG have wasted and other top tier nations would have nutured and utilised to far greater effect.

fa0019 wrote:jokes aside I think Mat Tait alongside Ollie Smith are 2 players ENG have wasted and other top tier nations would have nutured and utilised to far greater effect.

Scots-qualified too!

I think Wales has a lot to be positive about this year, a lot of our players have already made the grade to regional level, but in this batch there seems to be a lot of the pack who could make the grade and that is unusual for an U20 group.

We creamed Fiji and Samoa and generally their players are bigger than ours at this level, and most are in the New Zealand system as well as beating New Zealand and we also smashed Argentina off the park, who in turn beat France, Australia and Scotland with relative ease.

Talented backs in Wales is like grains of sand on a beach, so to say Ross Jones, Prydie, Matthew Morgan, Habberfield etc are promising is pretty normal in any U20 squad, but the front row and back row, especially Sampson Lee is very exciting!

Shifty wrote:Talented backs in Wales is like grains of sand on a beach, so to say Ross Jones, Prydie, Matthew Morgan, Habberfield etc are promising is pretty normal in any U20 squad, but the front row and back row, especially Sampson Lee is very exciting!

When you think Luke Hamilton and Kirby Myhill have both had starts for their regions in the Rabo last season, and put in performances that made people notice them, things are looking promising. I should be interesting to see how much game time the young pack can get at regional level the coming season.

"We creamed Fiji and Samoa and generally their players are bigger than ours at this level, and most are in the New Zealand system as well as beating New Zealand and we also smashed Argentina off the park, who in turn beat France, Australia and Scotland with relative ease."

Irrelevant to the thread. Please keep on topic.

Also you contain deception by ommission of fact that Junior World Championship: Wales U20 6-30 New Zealand U20 (here is a LINK : http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/18424645 ) for those who worry I am lying.

AWOP this is an excellent post in concise English,are you using some PC software to do this for you?could do with something like it myself.It is not your
usual mis chievious style at all schizo phrenia?Anyway the point is well made Aron Mauger was ARGUABLY THE best 12 in 2007 in the World.To be dumped for Luke M cAlister [a real SHOOTING star] one season at the top.HIS lack off the bench MAY have cost the AllBlacks the Match,a Final place,even a RWC.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

fa0019 wrote:jokes aside I think Mat Tait alongside Ollie Smith are 2 players ENG have wasted and other top tier nations would have nutured and utilised to far greater effect.

Scots-qualified too!

Oh because scotland are well known for making the best of players *cough*

One of them got injured a lot, the other had personal problems and moved to France. Its not like either were overlooked by england.

Hardly Englands fault. Its like saying Gavin Henson getting injured and being a prize tw@t was the fault of the WRU.

anotherworldofpain wrote: Least say about Gavin Henson the better because (a) he was terrible and (b) will upset some fans to say that...

PS this bit is funnies.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote: Least say about Gavin Henson the better because (a) he was terrible and (b) will upset some fans to say that...

PS this bit is funnies.

thank god he didnt bring that up.

imagine the chaos

fa0019 wrote:BOD hasn't been among the world's best 2 centres for 5 years. I don't think anyone in rugby thinks he is above Smith. In fact I think many are beginning to feel it may be a good time now for him to walk away from test rugby... I can't see him getting into the test side for the lions... he'll need a real upsurge in performance (something we haven't seen in a couple of seasons now).

I would say that at the moment we are in a bit of a lull when it comes to centres.

about 5-8 years ago I think we were at a all time peak with players like Jauzion, BOD, Mortlock, Giteau, Umaga, De Villiers & Fioure all competiting with each other.

currently the quality isn't quite there bar Smith... all other sides have journeyman, fading giants or potentially great players i.e. Basteraud & Tuilagi but no standouts.

Adam Ashley Cooper? Also add JD2 to your last group, and Jacques Fourier when he gets back

emack2 wrote:AWOP this is an excellent post in concise English,are you using some PC software to do this for you?could do with something like it myself.It is not your
usual mis chievious style at all schizo phrenia?Anyway the point is well made Aron Mauger was ARGUABLY THE best 12 in 2007 in the World.To be dumped for Luke M cAlister [a real SHOOTING star] one season at the top.HIS lack off the bench MAY have cost the AllBlacks the Match,a Final place,even a RWC.

Thanks to you emack. Well yesterday I get upset because a lot posters think I am just make the WUM and call me lying about true reference and I get very angry on the moderator and other colleague poster. But I reflect on my behaviour and realisate that I just get wound up by some posters make a fun out of me. So I refocus my effort on get better English and make more sensical the posting and not so flipper.

anotherworldofpain wrote:

emack2 wrote:AWOP this is an excellent post in concise English,are you using some PC software to do this for you?could do with something like it myself.It is not your
usual mis chievious style at all schizo phrenia?Anyway the point is well made Aron Mauger was ARGUABLY THE best 12 in 2007 in the World.To be dumped for Luke M cAlister [a real SHOOTING star] one season at the top.HIS lack off the bench MAY have cost the AllBlacks the Match,a Final place,even a RWC.

Thanks to you emack. Well yesterday I get upset because a lot posters think I am just make the WUM and call me lying about true reference and I get very angry on the moderator and other colleague poster. But I reflect on my behaviour and realisate that I just get wound up by some posters make a fun out of me. So I refocus my effort on get better English and make more sensical the posting and not so flipper.

are you yoda????

caoimhincentre wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:

emack2 wrote:AWOP this is an excellent post in concise English,are you using some PC software to do this for you?could do with something like it myself.It is not your
usual mis chievious style at all schizo phrenia?Anyway the point is well made Aron Mauger was ARGUABLY THE best 12 in 2007 in the World.To be dumped for Luke M cAlister [a real SHOOTING star] one season at the top.HIS lack off the bench MAY have cost the AllBlacks the Match,a Final place,even a RWC.

Thanks to you emack. Well yesterday I get upset because a lot posters think I am just make the WUM and call me lying about true reference and I get very angry on the moderator and other colleague poster. But I reflect on my behaviour and realisate that I just get wound up by some posters make a fun out of me. So I refocus my effort on get better English and make more sensical the posting and not so flipper.

are you yoda????

anotherworldofpain wrote:

emack2 wrote:AWOP this is an excellent post in concise English,are you using some PC software to do this for you?could do with something like it myself.It is not your
usual mis chievious style at all schizo phrenia?Anyway the point is well made Aron Mauger was ARGUABLY THE best 12 in 2007 in the World.To be dumped for Luke M cAlister [a real SHOOTING star] one season at the top.HIS lack off the bench MAY have cost the AllBlacks the Match,a Final place,even a RWC.

Thanks to you emack. Well yesterday I get upset because a lot posters think I am just make the WUM and call me lying about true reference and I get very angry on the moderator and other colleague poster. But I reflect on my behaviour and realisate that I just get wound up by some posters make a fun out of me. So I refocus my effort on get better English and make more sensical the posting and not so flipper.

Boo, bring back flipper

It's actually a very interesting question - why do some players make the grade whilst others don't?

Obviously it ignores the incumbant international. It's all good and well being a superstar 10 at the age of 19, but if you happen to be an All Black, chances are you're still going to be watching Dan Carter for most of your career.

To be fair, most on the list have become internationals, albeit not superstars. It's just extremely hard to predict at that age how some players will turn out. Some peak early, whereas others work hard on their game and develop.

Nah, that's AWoP.

We've all heard of these players, but none of them are the best in their position. Kaino perhaps, and that's a recent thing. Couple of years back he couldn't play 2 good games in a row. Now he's off to Japan, that's probably the last we'll see of him playing 'consistently'.

Does being awarded the junior IRB award spoil these kids? Perhaps they believe their own hype as youngsters and they forget they still have to work hard and learn. Few years down the track, and they're back in the pack with the also rans.

Still too early to tell with Savea. He had a shocker last year but is doing well at the canes. Cruden started slow but only now seems to be showing his promise.

Polota-Nau also starts for Australia these days, and Beauxis started several games for France in the 6 Nations.

Also watch out for Ben Atiga. I predict he'll be world class by the end of this season......

funnyExiledScot wrote:Polota-Nau also starts for Australia these days, and Beauxis started several games for France in the 6 Nations.

Also watch out for Ben Atiga. I predict he'll be world class by the end of this season......

That wouldn't ahve anything to do with where he is heading to play his rugby next season?

Good point EBOP. If you think back to your school days, you always had an early developer who rang rings round the other kids. But typically those players were lazy in training as they had a natural advantage and didn't need to work hard.

There was a theory in a book called 10 000 hours that top footballers tended to be young and at a young age were put in a group of older kids. It had the effect of making them stronger as players because they needed to find ways to make up for their physical disadvantage.

Perhaps these stars in the tournaments stood out physically and so thought that would always be the case and never grew as players in other important areas.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

fa0019 wrote:BOD hasn't been among the world's best 2 centres for 5 years. I don't think anyone in rugby thinks he is above Smith. In fact I think many are beginning to feel it may be a good time now for him to walk away from test rugby... I can't see him getting into the test side for the lions... he'll need a real upsurge in performance (something we haven't seen in a couple of seasons now).

I would say that at the moment we are in a bit of a lull when it comes to centres.

about 5-8 years ago I think we were at a all time peak with players like Jauzion, BOD, Mortlock, Giteau, Umaga, De Villiers & Fioure all competiting with each other.

currently the quality isn't quite there bar Smith... all other sides have journeyman, fading giants or potentially great players i.e. Basteraud & Tuilagi but no standouts.

Adam Ashley Cooper? Also add JD2 to your last group, and Jacques Fourier when he gets back

Most Australians don't even rate Ashley-Cooper that highly at 13, mainly because he doesn't ever pass the ball. Compared to the old guard there is definitely a lack of quality.

It's interesting(ish) that the vast majority of winners are backs. Is it easier to stand out as a back or are the forwards much of a muchness size- an skill-wise at that age?

anotherworldofpain wrote:"We creamed Fiji and Samoa and generally their players are bigger than ours at this level, and most are in the New Zealand system as well as beating New Zealand and we also smashed Argentina off the park, who in turn beat France, Australia and Scotland with relative ease."

Irrelevant to the thread. Please keep on topic.

Also you contain deception by ommission of fact that Junior World Championship: Wales U20 6-30 New Zealand U20 (here is a LINK : http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/18424645 ) for those who worry I am lying.

What are you on about. Who is he trying to deceive? Even with the link you've provided they still did a lot better than the teams you supposedly support.

If we're on the topic of deception by omission shall we start by the omission of the truth I.e the <swearing removed> you spout in every post =D good day

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:He's a great example AWOP of a player who doesn't get a song and dance assessment of his performances because he's so consistent. You'd only sit up and notice if he wasn't there and then realise how much he does on attack and defence.

So he's a type of player who doesn't get the accolades but that is a good thing. When someone like SBW grabs the headlines and everyone talks about your special offloading abilities it's very hard to not go into a tackle and not have that mindset of I'm going to throw a miracle pass here.

What can you identify about Conrad Smith's game. He's not big but defensively he's very good in the tackle and positioning him and others around him on defence. He's not super quick but seems deceptively quick because he's able to break the line or avoid the tackle to get an offload.

Kia, you'll probably know, is it true that Conrad didn't play in the baby blacks or in any national age grade teams? Wasn't he a relatively late comer to rugby, like when he went to Uni or around that time? Could be wrong, anyone know?

caoimhincentre wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:

emack2 wrote:AWOP this is an excellent post in concise English,are you using some PC software to do this for you?could do with something like it myself.It is not your
usual mis chievious style at all schizo phrenia?Anyway the point is well made Aron Mauger was ARGUABLY THE best 12 in 2007 in the World.To be dumped for Luke M cAlister [a real SHOOTING star] one season at the top.HIS lack off the bench MAY have cost the AllBlacks the Match,a Final place,even a RWC.

Thanks to you emack. Well yesterday I get upset because a lot posters think I am just make the WUM and call me lying about true reference and I get very angry on the moderator and other colleague poster. But I reflect on my behaviour and realisate that I just get wound up by some posters make a fun out of me. So I refocus my effort on get better English and make more sensical the posting and not so flipper.

are you yoda????

no, yoda is real

sheephead wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:"We creamed Fiji and Samoa and generally their players are bigger than ours at this level, and most are in the New Zealand system as well as beating New Zealand and we also smashed Argentina off the park, who in turn beat France, Australia and Scotland with relative ease."

Irrelevant to the thread. Please keep on topic.

Also you contain deception by ommission of fact that Junior World Championship: Wales U20 6-30 New Zealand U20 (here is a LINK : http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/18424645 ) for those who worry I am lying.

What are you on about. Who is he trying to deceive? Even with the link you've provided they still did a lot better than the teams you supposedly support.

If we're on the topic of deception by omission shall we start by the omission of the truth I.e the <swearing removed> you spout in every post =D good day

Poor , still depresesd over the fact Wales were the first to beat his beloved Baby Blacks . Give up the act and practice being a fan that has an ounce of dignity, you could learn a lot from the other Kiwi posters on this forum. (This doesn't include emack btw, he isn't a real Kiwi).

Emack

EBOP wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:He's a great example AWOP of a player who doesn't get a song and dance assessment of his performances because he's so consistent. You'd only sit up and notice if he wasn't there and then realise how much he does on attack and defence.

So he's a type of player who doesn't get the accolades but that is a good thing. When someone like SBW grabs the headlines and everyone talks about your special offloading abilities it's very hard to not go into a tackle and not have that mindset of I'm going to throw a miracle pass here.

What can you identify about Conrad Smith's game. He's not big but defensively he's very good in the tackle and positioning him and others around him on defence. He's not super quick but seems deceptively quick because he's able to break the line or avoid the tackle to get an offload.

Kia, you'll probably know, is it true that Conrad didn't play in the baby blacks or in any national age grade teams? Wasn't he a relatively late comer to rugby, like when he went to Uni or around that time? Could be wrong, anyone know?

I think that's right EBOP. He made a few age group teams for Taranaki before making his move to Wellington but wasn't really involved in the age group set up in a national sense. He's a qualified lawyer so is one of those rare ABs that seems to have a life outside the sport. Probably because he wasn't involved in the national age groups growing up. He doesn't like the gym and seems like somebody you'd like to have a beer with, much like Eric Rush. Not someone like Anton Oliver who was scarily bright but came across as a smug pr**k. Not his fault really but multisyllabic words coming out of a front row prop seem as foreign as sensible words coming out of Puff Divvy's mouth.

Knew Rushy from Otahuhu/ Esat Tamaki and Uni days Kia. Really nice fulla but never, ever drank. Dont believe he ever has. He'd be out with the boys alright but never went silly...like the rest of tem/ us back then

Perhaps it was because Ashton was a league player until 2007 and came through Wigan's development programme.

What Make the Star Shine?

Nuclear fusion.

Morgannwg wrote:

What Make the Star Shine?

Nuclear fusion.

True dat.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

What Make the Star Shine?

Nuclear fusion.

True dat.

And all this time I though someone left the lights on.

Morgannwg wrote:
still depresesd over the fact Wales were the first to beat his beloved Baby Blacks

Yes, it's all about Wales and their proud history of triumph over new zealand.

anotherworldofpain wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:
still depresesd over the fact Wales were the first to beat his beloved Baby Blacks

Yes, it's all about Wales and their proud history of triumph over new zealand.

That was a bit of a delay to bring that arguement back up.

I was busy.

AWOP - but if you've been on here posting pretty consistantly, I would have presumed you would have seen his comment and replied earlier than that (what a week and a half), unless you were trying to stir up a bite ona quiet afternoon of course.

There was a back log scarlet. And now I am get to it.

If posters want to make a comment that I CANNOT respond to then they should marking it some how.,

Plus I was banned most of last week so some things stack up! like dirty dishes!

you were banned???

Why??