T3: Will Finn be retained? Will KP be dropped ?

Swann should be back seems given......
so who will go ?
Finn or Bresnan ?
The genuine pace bowler...or the bowler for his percived batting skills, that don't really blossom against top bowling attacks...

That Bopara's whatever perosnal situation was.......is resolved?....will he get "his place" back ?

Will ECB drop KP on grounds of something like " bringing distraction and indiscipline to an otherwise united champion team"

It will be politically an astute move to drop KP.........serves triple purposes for ECB:

1) Justification delivered from a high moral horse for an impending series and ranking surrender........"lost the series because preserving long term discipline and law abidance is more paramount than short term wins / losses"...type statement

2) High Moral Ground Protected......

3) Ego in Public Protected.....we dumped him ( in the guise of discipline, team spirit, etc....)...before he inevitably walks out on us a test match later.....

Given where ECB have driven themselves to..........any astute politicans would do the above...at least let ECB show they are astute.

Swann for Bresnan.

Does anybody know what was or is wrong with Bopara?

Very difficult to imagine what the team is going to be at this stage. If KP is dropped I'd imagine Bopara will come in and play at 6 with Taylor and Bell moving up a slot. If not, then Bopara will likely miss out.

Bowling will be even more difficult as both Finn and Bresnan were disappointing at Headingly. Finn is the most likely to be retained I reckon, especially given that Lord's is his home ground. There is also the possibility that both could be dropped with Onions coming in with Swann and then they may retain them both and play 5 bowlers due to Lord's being a flat deck.

In summing up, I have no idea.

I'd go with:

Strauss
Cook
Trott
KP
Bell
Taylor
Prior
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Finn

Anderson and Swann pick themselves, Broad's spell in the last innings make him a nailed on pick and then it is between Finn and Bresnan as I can't see the selectors going with someone who hasn't played yet this series in Onions, and I think Finn has the edge with his extra pace and the fact the game is at his home ground.

Bopara shouldn't come back in straight away, especially as Taylor had a decent knock on debut and there is no way KP gets dropped.

I think KP plays. He is still available and remains our best player.

Tough call on the seamers but Finn out for me. As others have said he's a better player when not in the side. Then he comes in and goes for a lot of runs for not many wickets. Its a mystery as his economy is good in ODIs so that would suggest good control.

As a personal opinion I'd have got rid of the role of the non scoring number 6 a few series back. I'd have considered giving Samosa Patel a try but my favoured option is to bat Broad at number 6 and see if he can bat properly rather than trying to hit everything as he does at 8/9. His technique is decent so maybe the application is at fault.

Obviously I accept that the powers that be won't do this and having given Taylor a chance they should stick with him meaning it's a flat choice between Bresnan and Finn. Bresnan's been given the nod due to his supposed batting which has been pony of late so I think I'd go with Finn but not with a great deal of conviction it has to be said.

No offense guy, but can you post without putting 4 or 5 ellipses between every few words

Broad at 6! Agree Bresnan hasn't been great with the bat, but the much vaunted Broad/Swann have been worse.

I think that's to do with them being in the England set up for so long focussing on their bowling, as they rarely play in the CC their batting has regressed. A shame as they all have talent with the bat. I personally would never want to see Broad at 6 whatever happened, but am disappointed as he could be a number 7.

Do you think that coming in and 9 and 10 has affected Broad's and Swann's batting?

I've a feeling it might be the case. They bat at 9/10 therefore they play like 9/10 batsmen if that makes any sense. Maybe more so in Broad's case as I've always been an admirer of his technique whereas I think Swann will always be a hitter.

I'd say batting lower down does affect their batting. But its a self-fulfilling I think as they get out of the habit of building innings and therefore become useful sloggers rather than proper batsmen.

This is why more CC would be useful. Broad could bat top 6 in CC, Swann probably 8 (as Hibbz states he is a hitter) but that's of course better than 10. Would get them both back into playing with more responsibility - they simply won't get the chance with England to do that.

Flower doesn't trust his top order......so he packs the side with bowlers who can bat.
With Flower around these guys Broad, Swann, Bresnan etal aren't gonna get to bat up the order......
in another side someone of the quality and consistency of Prior would have been batting at No. 5 or 6......and someone with the potential of Broad no lower that 7.
Ain't gonna happen in Flower's rule........he will stereotype the composition with 6 "specialist" batters........no matter how limited the skills of 1 or 2 of those 6 specialists is......

and a batsman WK at 7...

and as many specialist bowlers who can bat usefully( that being the criteria of selecton of bowlers) ...packed from No.8 thru 11, as he can find in England.

He has one cooky cutter.........and for good or bad winning ashes and attaining statistical No.1 Ranking has strenghened his hands.........and while he is there....Eng ain't gonna see anything but his cooky-cuts

England pick their bowlers in their ability to take 20 wickets for as little runs as possible, to argue anything else is just being silly. Up until this series Bresnan, Broad and Anderson (with Swann) were doing that regularly. They've had no problem picking Tremlett, Anderson and Finn or Anderson and Panesar in the same team before so the arguement just does not stand up.

As for the wk at 7, without a genuine all rounder England feel that's the right balance to go with and it served them well up until this year. But from my reckoning Prior has batted in the top 6 13 times under Flower's reign, so he's not as adverse to change as your making out. And anyway having a wk/bat at 7 never did Gilchrist and Australia any harm that's for sure.

Under Flower's rule, England are probably as efficient as they've ever been and I find the criticism of his methods a little bewildering given the heights he's take. England to in all formats of the game.

I'm a big Onions fan, I would love to see he him have another crack of the whip. Caused the Saffer's all sorts of problems out there and was shamefully dropped for the final test for Ryan Sidebottom of all people. I would love to see him given a go but its not going to happen.

Therefore, being Lord's I would go for Finn. Bowled better than Bresnan imo and will cause more problems. Plus its his home ground, has to count in his favour. Swann in for Bresnan.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/england/content/current/story/576279.html

Bopara wont be back thats for sure

T3 team selection is the moment of Truth for England selectors and ECB....

KP has done all and said all that is vitriolic, to put it mildly... against ECB and dressing room spirit.....right in the midst of a series.....

Either they (ECB) should keep sitting on their high horse and for the violation of the principles they stand for....sack KP immediately

If they let player to say and do in the midst of a series what KP has done....then they have already conceded him SPECIAL STATUS.......and their moral stand isn't valid any more.

Or will they in the interest of their No. 1 ranking defense..... digest KP's misdemenours made in full public view...and play him in next test because Eng needs a strong team..

Then the underlined would apply to any / all subsequent England games...

That's why whether they pick KP for T3 is "the moment of truth for ECB"

The more one sees of KP's considerable strengths and considerable weaknesses the more odd it is that someone once thought he was suited to be England captain.

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:The more one sees of KP's considerable strengths and considerable weaknesses the more odd it is that someone once thought he was suited to be England captain.

Well I think at the time they wanted a captain who played all 3 forms of the game, and KP was one of the few players who was a certain to play in all 3 forms.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricket/article-2186760/Kevin-Pietersen-faces-England-axe-row-texts-South-Africans.html

he might be dropped .....under the guise of sending text messages.
and who are ECB trying to get a confirmation from about the content of the messages ??
The South Africans
and who will benefit most from the dropping of Eng's best batsman and game save from the last test?
The South Africans.

Crisis brings out the best and worst of human judgements....and so far, by far ECB is on the worse side

That'd be ludicrous.

chrisss wrote:

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:The more one sees of KP's considerable strengths and considerable weaknesses the more odd it is that someone once thought he was suited to be England captain.

Well I think at the time they wanted a captain who played all 3 forms of the game, and KP was one of the few players who was a certain to play in all 3 forms.

Indeed. After a period where England bobbed along without ever taking off, it was felt that an 'exciting' change of direction was needed and that KP rather than the incumbent vice-captain Strauss was the man for the job. A further factor, as chrisss says, was that Strauss wasn't in the one-day and T20 teams at that point and with Collingwood having left the one-day captaincy at the same time as Vaughan left the Test captaincy, it was felt that we should move away from split captaincies where at all possible.

The blame for this debacle will rest squarely on the shoulders of Flower...he is failing where the otehr star coach Gary Kirsten is succeeding......in getting the best out of star-studded, ego inflated but talented cricketers.....

It wouldn't have been easy to handle the polticis of Indian cricket and manage Tendulkar, Sehwag, VVS, Dhoni, Yuvraj, Harbhajan and above all BCCI.......but it seemed he had a way of dealing with them as individuals.....and getting what was in the interest of the team.
From gods to superstars to party going brats to hard core corrupt politicans he managed a way out with all.

and now very quickly in a completely diffrent culture--mix of white, brown and black cultures....... he is getting the best out of SA-ffies....managing their far more complex board bureaucracy as well.

In contrast to " here are my rules...take them or you are out no matter how talendted you are" mantra of Mr. Flower is too simpilistic.....passing all the hard work to the players to align with him..rather than taking the multi dimensional approach that Kirsten has demonstrated.

When the going got too tight and trought nearer the top.....Flower's methods and principles are cracking up.

Flower, Strauss or someone else at the ECB has at last seen sense and so did KP it seems, and seemingly the crisis is off. Hopefully its off for good.

so KP is dropped...seemingly low probaility whenth thread was started....now looking like it was a historical inevitability.

assuming Bairstow will be a one to one replacement...and batting already considerably weakened....will Flower still play Finn ahead of Bresnan.

The way Bresnan is talking the talk now...appears like Flower has already assured him of a place in the XI

The way i have read things:

Strauss
Cook
Trott
Bell
Taylor
Bairstow
Prior
Bresnan
Broad
Swann
Anderson

Looking very likely.

skyeman wrote:The way i have read things:

Strauss
Cook
Trott
Bell
Taylor
Bairstow
Prior
Bresnan
Broad
Swann
Anderson

Looking very likely.

Yes looking very likely.......
In the best of times Flower plays a bolwer who can bat instead of the most wkt taking bowler.
These ar eunderstandably torubled times

KP_fan wrote:

skyeman wrote:The way i have read things:

Strauss
Cook
Trott
Bell
Taylor
Bairstow
Prior
Bresnan
Broad
Swann
Anderson

Looking very likely.

Yes looking very likely.......
In the best of times Flower plays a bolwer who can bat instead of the most wkt taking bowler.
These ar eunderstandably torubled times

I've never seen Bresnan's selection as being because he can bat, at least since he became a regular. But after a couple of barren Tests you feel that Onions needs to be given a go, and that Swann will obviously return. Onions has had success against SA in the past and will offer something a little different from Bresnan who the SA batsmen have seen plenty of in this series.

Putting Bresnan in front of the media today would suggest he'll play, but that's formula doesn't always work.

Shelsey93 wrote: I've never seen Bresnan's selection as being because he can bat, at least since he became a regular. .

Really is he better than Finn, Tremlett and Onions purely on bowling abilities

I feel a bit sorry for Bresnan. Bit of a lamb to the slaughter.

If he tells the truth and says yeah the team is weaker without it's best batsmen then he'll lose his place but when he, understandably, says "Oh yeah we'll be fine, better without our best batsman" he looks a bit silly.

I think he said what he had to say though.

Oh and the batting line up looks fragile to say the least.

KP_fan wrote:

Shelsey93 wrote: I've never seen Bresnan's selection as being because he can bat, at least since he became a regular. .

Really is he better than Finn, Tremlett and Onions purely on bowling abilities

On last summer's form, then resoundingly Yes! He has become our best exponent of reverse swing, and uses the bouncer pretty well, as well as being a more reliable defensive bowling option than the others.

On the form of the last couple of weeks then probably not, although Finn has also had his issues, and of course Tremlett is injured.

Shelsey93 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

Shelsey93 wrote: I've never seen Bresnan's selection as being because he can bat, at least since he became a regular. .

Really is he better than Finn, Tremlett and Onions purely on bowling abilities

On last summer's form, then resoundingly Yes! He has become our best exponent of reverse swing, and uses the bouncer pretty well, as well as being a more reliable defensive bowling option than the others.

last summer ?
He even got a near 100 didn't he ?
He was looking like a Sobers and Botham reincarnate rolled into one and Bell a Bradman..
But wasn't that against the Indians ?
Didn't every Ausise also wallop that Indian side. Any one and every one is giving India a hiding in tests outside India.

Doesn't count for much.

Look at the First class record of Bresnan to get a true measure of his bowling

Tremlett is certainly right out of it with a comeback that didn't work out and now further injury. Doubtful whether he will figure in England's plans much for foreseeable future....

Who has more wickets in the series so far? Pietersen or Bresnan? Of course Bresnan would feel better without Pietersen in there!!. And without Pietersen, the third test would not have become this much important, as South Africa would have walked the last one as well.

KP_fan wrote:

Shelsey93 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

Shelsey93 wrote: I've never seen Bresnan's selection as being because he can bat, at least since he became a regular. .

Really is he better than Finn, Tremlett and Onions purely on bowling abilities

On last summer's form, then resoundingly Yes! He has become our best exponent of reverse swing, and uses the bouncer pretty well, as well as being a more reliable defensive bowling option than the others.

last summer ?
He even got a near 100 didn't he ?
He was looking like a Sobers and Botham reincarnate rolled into one and Bell a Bradman..
But wasn't that against the Indians ?
Didn't every Ausise also wallop that Indian side. Any one and every one is giving India a hiding in tests outside India.

Doesn't count for much.

Look at the First class record of Bresnan to get a true measure of his bowling

But India were the number one side in the world with a batting line-up of experienced superstars, many of whom had done well in England before.

With some posters we seem to be getting to a situation where unless you do well against South Africa its irrelevant - people suggesting that Strauss's runs against WI were irrelevant, and now suggesting that Bresnan's wickets against India were irrelevant.

For me Bresnan has not been the same bowler that he was in Australia after his injury comeback. With the loss of a yard or 2 of pace the nip has gone, and he never has been a big swinger of the cricket ball. He doesn't move it off the pitch much either, and doesn't usually generate the kind of bounce that Finn does.
And today he cut a sorry figure when he suggested England would be a better side without Kevin Pietersen.

msp83 wrote:For me Bresnan has not been the same bowler that he was in Australia after his injury comeback. With the loss of a yard or 2 of pace the nip has gone, and he never has been a big swinger of the cricket ball. He doesn't move it off the pitch much either, and doesn't usually generate the kind of bounce that Finn does.
And today he cut a sorry figure when he suggested England would be a better side without Kevin Pietersen.

Jumping on the anti-KP bandwagon. Trying to suck up to the ECB and Selectors etc. He's a no-mark really. I'll be booing him on Friday!

i completely agree on the view that bresnan just hasn't been the same against the aussies. he's bowling around 80mph and when you aren't swinging it it's pretty easy t deal with with the quality of the south african batsmen.

would love to see onion's back in the side, he was so unlucky to have the back injury he did, he was superb against australia, that opening spell at headingly was incredible. he nips it off the seam and at lord's that is exactly what causes problems for batsmen there.

DouglasJardinesbox wrote:

msp83 wrote:For me Bresnan has not been the same bowler that he was in Australia after his injury comeback. With the loss of a yard or 2 of pace the nip has gone, and he never has been a big swinger of the cricket ball. He doesn't move it off the pitch much either, and doesn't usually generate the kind of bounce that Finn does.
And today he cut a sorry figure when he suggested England would be a better side without Kevin Pietersen.

Jumping on the anti-KP bandwagon. Trying to suck up to the ECB and Selectors etc. He's a no-mark really. I'll be booing him on Friday!

I hope that is a joke - a very poor one at that.

And for anyone cutting into Bresnan's comments I suggest you read what he actually said instead of just the headline.

Shelsey93 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

Shelsey93 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

Shelsey93 wrote: I've never seen Bresnan's selection as being because he can bat, at least since he became a regular. .

Really is he better than Finn, Tremlett and Onions purely on bowling abilities

On last summer's form, then resoundingly Yes! He has become our best exponent of reverse swing, and uses the bouncer pretty well, as well as being a more reliable defensive bowling option than the others.

last summer ?
He even got a near 100 didn't he ?
He was looking like a Sobers and Botham reincarnate rolled into one and Bell a Bradman..
But wasn't that against the Indians ?
Didn't every Ausise also wallop that Indian side. Any one and every one is giving India a hiding in tests outside India.

Doesn't count for much.

Look at the First class record of Bresnan to get a true measure of his bowling

But India were the number one side in the world with a batting line-up of experienced superstars, many of whom had done well in England before.

With some posters we seem to be getting to a situation where unless you do well against South Africa its irrelevant - people suggesting that Strauss's runs against WI were irrelevant, and now suggesting that Bresnan's wickets against India were irrelevant.

Yeah of course what he did last year is more relevant to this Test than what he has done this year.

As far as Strauss' runs, well, WI are only the 2nd opposition against whom he has got runs in the last 3 years, yes THREE YEARS (the other being 2010/11 Ashes). So the WI series could well be described as a false dawn given how bad he has been otherwise. You dont have to be a genius to work out why his place is being questioned.

Even in getting those runs against WI he still didn't look 'in form'. I know that's an odd thing to say but there was still the feeling that he would get out at any time even when he was well into his 60s and 70s.

Strauss is definitely under pressure but he is the type of player that will get the odd big score to simply keep him in the team. Similar to Collingwood in that regard.

I dont think any of the batsmens place is exactly under pressure at the moment, they are already struggling to fill spots thanks to KP. With all the current upheavals and upset the chances of strauss being dropped are 0.

Hopefully, the selectors will show some sense and recall KP.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:I dont think any of the batsmens place is exactly under pressure at the moment, they are already struggling to fill spots thanks to KP. With all the current upheavals and upset the chances of strauss being dropped are 0.

Sadly this is true. Normally you might be looking to the ODI team and say "who is doing well there?". Well, we've got Bopara and Morgan who don't convince many. Then Bairstow who has done ok but nothing more and had a poor start in Tests.

So the options don't look good and Strauss would probably remain even if he wasn't captain - frightening given his poor record.

Huge, huge chance though for someone out there to push for a place. Surely this has to motivate the next crop of batsmen - there's a few places up for grabs now and in the near future.

Does Strauss have a poor record? he doesnt have a great one but its better than most of the worlds openers. He has a good record as Captain, arguably the best of any England Capatin ever when you consider where hes taken England in all 3 formats even counting this series.
And theres another key, Bopara and co could prove to be better than KP but it would still leave England short a genuine opener to replace Strauss even if they did want rid of him. The players banging on the door are all middle order batsmen or right arm fast medium bowlers.

Strauss is not under threat from anything other than retirement.

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:Hopefully, the selectors will show some sense and recall KP.

For the Lords test?

My hat will be eaten with a slice of humble pie if they do.

PSW - I'd say he does have a poor record recently.

Checked the averages and post 2009 only 3 times has he averaged over 40:

2010 vs Bangladesh, last Ashes and the Recent Windies series. Only 3 hundreds in that time, 2 in the last series. You'd have to say two of those examples were against pretty terrible opposition.

Also take into account the more subjective thing that he just doesn't look very good anymore. I've followed his whole career and its sad to see him scratching around these days.

VTR wrote:PSW - I'd say he does have a poor record recently.

Checked the averages and post 2009 only 3 times has he averaged over 40:

2010 vs Bangladesh, last Ashes and the Recent Windies series. Only 3 hundreds in that time, 2 in the last series. You'd have to say two of those examples were against pretty terrible opposition.

Also take into account the more subjective thing that he just doesn't look very good anymore. I've followed his whole career and its sad to see him scratching around these days.

But West Indies weren't quite as terrible as people like to think - Kemar Roach played in the 1st Test, Gabriel looked sharp, Rampaul is a pretty fair Test bowler (though was unfit then), and it wasn't as if all of the England batsman were scoring runs for fun.

He was out of knick, but this year he looks pretty in knick to me, and wouldn't be surprised if he marks his 100th Test with a wonderful ton on his home ground.

I just dont understand why people think Strauss can score runs against SA? He has been cr@p against them in the last 2 series and that has continued here. Just seems like a statement based on hope rather than anything else. Strauss scoring a ton against a bowling attack that includes Morne Morkel? I nearly spat my coffee out.