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Ospreys 10 - Bath Rugby 21 LOL!!

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Luckless Pedestrian
HERSH
beshocked
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler
Casartelli
Stone Motif
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Post by Stone Motif Sun 19 Aug 2012, 12:25 pm

Well.... The Ospreys brought a mix and match team of players from the English Premiership and this hotch poch team managed to turn the Swansea-based Region's pretty much first XV over at home. So well done to the lambs to the slaughter from the West Country, you did your club proud.

Ospreys head coach Steve Tandy remains upbeat, saying 'there are certain aspects I was pleased with...we want to bring a positive intent to the game, which we showed'. Thank god the superstars of the working man's One True Free Ticketing and Jerseys Franchise didn't win, god knows what Tandy might of said!

I'm really concerned that Wales' flagship regional side aren't putting the likes of Bath to the sword pre-season after they finished the last so positively. Is the honeymoon period over for Steve Tandy? Is the pressure heaped on the players by giving away half a stadium's worth of tickets gratis starting to tell? I fear for Ospreys fans, I really do.
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Post by Casartelli Sun 19 Aug 2012, 4:13 pm

Blimey, nothing here but tumbleweeds...

...maybe your humour is too sophisticated and highbrow for the 606v2 crowd Stone?

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Post by Stone Motif Sun 19 Aug 2012, 5:15 pm

To be fair, I was expecting only the very stupid to bother responding.
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Post by Casartelli Sun 19 Aug 2012, 5:19 pm

There's some genius buried in that theory Stone. And I'm determined to uncover it.

Tumbleweed

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Post by Stone Motif Sun 19 Aug 2012, 9:09 pm

Don't try too hard, you're already presumably scratching that little head of yours trying to come up with more 'reasons' why regions aren't regions.

Are you not following the Valleys thread anymore?
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Post by Casartelli Mon 20 Aug 2012, 9:14 am

This one is so compelling it's taking my full attention.

And you nearly managed three consecutive posts without making a personal insult!

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 20 Aug 2012, 10:18 am

To be fair youd think HERSH would be all over this

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Post by beshocked Mon 20 Aug 2012, 10:23 am

Pre season results are irrelevant. It's what you deem to have learnt from the fixture which is the most important. Tinkering etc.

As long as your team hits the ground running when the actual season starts.....

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Post by HERSH Mon 20 Aug 2012, 10:25 am

I'm aiming higher than the Ospreys this season, they've lost their sparkle since Hook and Co went.
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Post by beshocked Mon 20 Aug 2012, 10:33 am

Hersh you of course right the O's who are the 2011-12 Pro12 champions have lost their sparkle.

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Post by HERSH Mon 20 Aug 2012, 10:35 am

Fingers Crossed
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Post by Stone Motif Mon 20 Aug 2012, 10:46 am

Casartelli wrote:This one is so compelling it's taking my full attention.

And you nearly managed three consecutive posts without making a personal insult!
I'm sorry where are all these personal insults? You're even more paranoid about me than you are about our regional rugby sides.
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Post by Stone Motif Mon 20 Aug 2012, 10:50 am

beshocked wrote:Pre season results are irrelevant. It's what you deem to have learnt from the fixture which is the most important. Tinkering etc.

As long as your team hits the ground running when the actual season starts.....
I totally disagree and this shows a worrying lack of concern by Ospreys fans that it seems is echoed by the management. The Ospreys finished last season in fine form and this shows an alarming decline in such a short space of time.
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Post by beshocked Mon 20 Aug 2012, 10:54 am

Stone Motif if you want to exaggerate the importance of basically friendlies then by all means do so.

As long as Ospreys start their 1st Pro12 match well it doesn't matter whether they lost to Bath or whoever in an inconsequential warm up match.

Oh and btw I am not an Ospreys fan.

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Post by HERSH Mon 20 Aug 2012, 11:00 am

Don't Panic, Don't Panic
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 20 Aug 2012, 11:10 am

It's only fair to point out that this thread is a response to an earlier thread:

https://www.606v2.com/t33447-dragons-10-16-dragons-premiership-xv-lol

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Mon 20 Aug 2012, 11:25 am

Luckless - I was going to point that out to the English posters, I think they may have missed the point of this thread. And I think SHifty and Co. may just skip over it entirely.
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Post by beshocked Mon 20 Aug 2012, 11:33 am

Scarletspiderman there's a point to this thread? I thought it was just a WUM responding to another WUM.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Mon 20 Aug 2012, 11:37 am

beshocked wrote:Scarletspiderman there's a point to this thread? I thought it was just a WUM responding to another WUM.

Ok point was maybe the wrong word, but the reasoning behind it (besides for a wum it is actually a pretty good repy to the previous wum).
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Post by Stone Motif Mon 20 Aug 2012, 11:41 am

beshocked wrote:Scarletspiderman there's a point to this thread? I thought it was just a WUM responding to another WUM.
That is a scandalous accusation I am genuinely concerned for the Ospreys after this result as it was largely a first XV. I am not an O's fan either but I want all the regions to be successful and Tandy's comments in particular leave a lot to be desired.
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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 20 Aug 2012, 2:03 pm

beshocked wrote:Hersh you of course right the O's who are the 2011-12 Pro12 champions have lost their sparkle.

Look what ahppened to Saracens when they were Jeff champions, now firmly " also rans" Hug

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Post by Casartelli Mon 20 Aug 2012, 2:19 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
Casartelli wrote:This one is so compelling it's taking my full attention.

And you nearly managed three consecutive posts without making a personal insult!
I'm sorry where are all these personal insults? You're even more paranoid about me than you are about our regional rugby sides.

There are no regional sides, only superclubs. And, you know full well that Kiwireddevil had to edit your comments for making personal insults that time.

So there.

At least other people have joined this thread now.

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Post by Stone Motif Mon 20 Aug 2012, 2:39 pm

Casartelli wrote:There are no regional sides, only superclubs.
Not this again. Have you got some sort of god complex that makes you think you can make the regions cease to exist because you says so? Look this is a thread about regional rugby. It's about your favourite one as it happens. So unless you can demonstrate why the regions aren't regions please stop popping up on my threads to parrot your baseless preoccupation with fantasy super clubs as I am only interested in reality thanks.
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Post by Casartelli Mon 20 Aug 2012, 2:55 pm

You raised the subject, not me!!! And if I hadn't started commenting on this thread, you'd be the only one on it.

The others only joined in because Casartelli took an interest. We both know that's the case.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Mon 20 Aug 2012, 3:03 pm

Casartelli wrote:The others only joined in because Casartelli took an interest. We both know that's the case.

Are you trying to copy HERSH and the Ospreys with the Dragons? Your even starting make similar comments (that make me laught out loud int he office and get odd looks)
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Post by Casartelli Mon 20 Aug 2012, 3:14 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Casartelli wrote:The others only joined in because Casartelli took an interest. We both know that's the case.

Are you trying to copy HERSH and the Ospreys with the Dragons? Your even starting make similar comments (that make me laught out loud int he office and get odd looks)

Always nice to get feedback from the fans...

...I haven't really followed Hersh since the old 606, is he still around? One only teases Stone a little as he resorted to calling me names on another thread. As previously stated, I'd love to see Newport Gwent Dragons do well, as I would all the Welsh teams. Casartelli is just frustrated with year after year of mediocrity across the board below test level.

And, in European and wider terms, regional/superclub fans squabbling is like two bald men fighting over a comb, which I find amusing.

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Post by Stone Motif Mon 20 Aug 2012, 3:28 pm

I wish you'd resort to giving some realistic views on why our regions aren't regions. Still glad to hear you'll be doing your bit to end mediocrity at the regions, which one will you be supporting this year?
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Post by Casartelli Mon 20 Aug 2012, 3:40 pm

Stone Motif wrote:I wish you'd resort to giving some realistic views on why our regions aren't regions. Still glad to hear you'll be doing your bit to end mediocrity at the regions, which one will you be supporting this year?

I support and follow (and pay good money to go and watch) all of them. Same as every other long, long, season of the past decade. I'm a Welsh rugby fan - the test team is the important thing but I think the pro level could be a lot more successful also. Tribal/parochial rivalries are fun and there is a place for them - in the Premiership.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Mon 20 Aug 2012, 3:49 pm

Casartelli wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:I wish you'd resort to giving some realistic views on why our regions aren't regions. Still glad to hear you'll be doing your bit to end mediocrity at the regions, which one will you be supporting this year?

I support and follow (and pay good money to go and watch) all of them. Same as every other long, long, season of the past decade. I'm a Welsh rugby fan - the test team is the important thing but I think the pro level could be a lot more successful also. Tribal/parochial rivalries are fun and there is a place for them - in the Premiership.

The long decade where the regions have achieved nother, bar 5 x Celtic League Titles, 2 x Anglo-Welsh Titles, 1 x Amlin Title, so that is what 8 titles in 9 seasons (season 10 is just starting) that ain't bad, one title a season, probably better than the Irish or Scots.

Also coupled with 1 x Celtic Cup Final, 2 x HEC Semi-Finals, 2 X Amlin Semi Finals, 2 x Anlgo-Welsh Final, 3 x Anglo-Welsh Semi-Finals, Numerous HEC/Amlin Quarter Finals (these don't incluse teams that went on to achieve higher).
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Post by Casartelli Mon 20 Aug 2012, 3:56 pm

The Anglo Welsh and the Amlin are irrelevant. I've always said that the Ospreys were the exception to the mediocrity but even they underachieved (when they had the best squad in the HC) and could do a lot more to take games around their 'region' (the Library really is an awful arena for rugby).

I've no axe to grind - if you think that's a good return after 10 YEARS of 'regional' rugby then great - but I just don't agree.

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Post by Stone Motif Mon 20 Aug 2012, 4:24 pm

More hypocrisy. The competitions you so blithely dismiss as irrelevant are the very ones you think should be taken on the road to attract in the masses of supporters. Your whole argument has no logic behind it. Apart from the fact that our so called regional mediocrity is a darn sight better than what we had before in a failing club system, maybe just maybe we're doing the best we can as a small poor country with little interest in participating in sport beyond the beers that go with it? Put another way, are you happy with Wales mediocre performance at the Olympic Games? We could have done so much better...
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Post by HERSH Mon 20 Aug 2012, 4:27 pm

The only way a region will win the HC is when England and France pull out and the Irish have a bad season.
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Post by Casartelli Mon 20 Aug 2012, 5:29 pm

Stone Motif wrote:More hypocrisy. The competitions you so blithely dismiss as irrelevant are the very ones you think should be taken on the road to attract in the masses of supporters. Your whole argument has no logic behind it. Apart from the fact that our so called regional mediocrity is a darn sight better than what we had before in a failing club system, maybe just maybe we're doing the best we can as a small poor country with little interest in participating in sport beyond the beers that go with it? Put another way, are you happy with Wales mediocre performance at the Olympic Games? We could have done so much better...

Amlin and Anglo-Welsh cup games are irrelevant as a measure of 'success'. As a means to play young players and take games on the road they are useful.

Wales weren't in the Olympics.

The club system was wholly inadequate, but looking at what we have now, we may as well have made Llanelli, Neath, Ponty and Cardiff the 'pro' teams and consolidated resources into those. It would have saved millions, the standards would have been the same and crowds would have been bigger. Having Llanelli + Llanelli Scarlets, Cardiff + Cardiff Blues, Newport + Newport Gwent Dragons all trying to operate in a 'small poor country' is just a shambles.

Hence very few outside outside those towns are even interested any more. But you know all this...

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Post by Artful_Dodger Mon 20 Aug 2012, 5:49 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Casartelli wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:I wish you'd resort to giving some realistic views on why our regions aren't regions. Still glad to hear you'll be doing your bit to end mediocrity at the regions, which one will you be supporting this year?

I support and follow (and pay good money to go and watch) all of them. Same as every other long, long, season of the past decade. I'm a Welsh rugby fan - the test team is the important thing but I think the pro level could be a lot more successful also. Tribal/parochial rivalries are fun and there is a place for them - in the Premiership.

The long decade where the regions have achieved nother, bar 5 x Celtic League Titles, 2 x Anglo-Welsh Titles, 1 x Amlin Title, so that is what 8 titles in 9 seasons (season 10 is just starting) that ain't bad, one title a season, probably better than the Irish or Scots.

Also coupled with 1 x Celtic Cup Final, 2 x HEC Semi-Finals, 2 X Amlin Semi Finals, 2 x Anlgo-Welsh Final, 3 x Anglo-Welsh Semi-Finals, Numerous HEC/Amlin Quarter Finals (these don't incluse teams that went on to achieve higher).

Actually the Irish provinces have won more - 6 league titles and 6 Heineken Cups, Welsh regions have won 5 league titles 1 Amlin and 0 Heineken Cups. Its not even close to be honest and I have to agree with Casartelli, 5 league titles and 1 amlin is a very poor return given how good some of the regions have been at different times. You have to feel that until a Welsh region wins the HC they arent going to be sitting at Europe's top table.

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Post by Stone Motif Mon 20 Aug 2012, 6:43 pm

Casartelli wrote:
Amlin and Anglo-Welsh cup games are irrelevant as a measure of 'success'. As a means to play young players and take games on the road they are useful.

Wales weren't in the Olympics.

The club system was wholly inadequate, but looking at what we have now, we may as well have made Llanelli, Neath, Ponty and Cardiff the 'pro' teams and consolidated resources into those. It would have saved millions, the standards would have been the same and crowds would have been bigger. Having Llanelli + Llanelli Scarlets, Cardiff + Cardiff Blues, Newport + Newport Gwent Dragons all trying to operate in a 'small poor country' is just a shambles.

Hence very few outside outside those towns are even interested any more. But you know all this...
Utter bobbins. Your sole reason the Dragons aren't a region is they only play at Dave and should take lesser games on the road now lesser games irrelevant? As for Wales of course they weren't in the 'lympics but by your logic as Welsh athletes did not win gold in every event their performance was mediocre to poor. The rest is pure supposition and fantasy on your part. Give me one shred of evidence to suggest it would have been the case? The 'masses' stopped caring about club rugby long, long before regions came along. If you'd followed rugby prior to the 2005 grand plan you'd know this.
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Post by Casartelli Mon 20 Aug 2012, 6:59 pm

Sorry Stone, you lost me with that last one!

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Post by Stone Motif Mon 20 Aug 2012, 10:44 pm

Try to keep up. 1 these competitions are not irrelevant by your own admission. 2 you cannot judge sports team performance on trophies won alone. 3 pretty much everything you write on the subject of regional rugby is abject fantasy. OK
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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 21 Aug 2012, 8:23 am

Artful_Dodger wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Casartelli wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:I wish you'd resort to giving some realistic views on why our regions aren't regions. Still glad to hear you'll be doing your bit to end mediocrity at the regions, which one will you be supporting this year?

I support and follow (and pay good money to go and watch) all of them. Same as every other long, long, season of the past decade. I'm a Welsh rugby fan - the test team is the important thing but I think the pro level could be a lot more successful also. Tribal/parochial rivalries are fun and there is a place for them - in the Premiership.

The long decade where the regions have achieved nother, bar 5 x Celtic League Titles, 2 x Anglo-Welsh Titles, 1 x Amlin Title, so that is what 8 titles in 9 seasons (season 10 is just starting) that ain't bad, one title a season, probably better than the Irish or Scots.

Also coupled with 1 x Celtic Cup Final, 2 x HEC Semi-Finals, 2 X Amlin Semi Finals, 2 x Anlgo-Welsh Final, 3 x Anglo-Welsh Semi-Finals, Numerous HEC/Amlin Quarter Finals (these don't incluse teams that went on to achieve higher).

Actually the Irish provinces have won more - 6 league titles and 6 Heineken Cups, Welsh regions have won 5 league titles 1 Amlin and 0 Heineken Cups. Its not even close to be honest and I have to agree with Casartelli, 5 league titles and 1 amlin is a very poor return given how good some of the regions have been at different times. You have to feel that until a Welsh region wins the HC they arent going to be sitting at Europe's top table.

Since the regions were formed 03-04 Season they have won 5 Celtic League titles, (Scarlets x1, Ospreys x4), so there is no way the Irish could have physically won 6, they could have at most won 4. Yes the Irish have won lots of HECs, how long had the provinces existed by then? This is going to be season ten for the regions, and whilst we have not set the world ablaze we have had more silverware than people give us credit for. How many torophies have the Scottish sides, or Itlians won? How about the Englsih if you take the Jeff away?
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Post by beshocked Tue 21 Aug 2012, 8:40 am

Scarletspiderman

The Irish have won 6 celtic league titles (Munster x 3,Leinsterx 2,Ulster x1

The English have 6 HC wins ( Leicester x2, Wasps x2,Bath,Northampton)

Also 9 Amlin Challenge Cups -Harlequins x 3,Sale x2, Bath x1, Gloucester x 1,Saints x1,Wasps x1)

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 21 Aug 2012, 9:16 am

'shocked - I was talking about post regional results. So far the winners of the tournaments, post regionalism, are as follows (welsh winners in bold):

Post Regional Celtic Leagues

03-04 - Scarlets
04-05 - Ospreys

05-06 - Ulster
06-07 - Ospreys
07-08 - Leinster
08-09 - Munster
09-10 - Ospreys
10-11 - Munster
11-12 - Ospreys

(Welsh =5, Irish = 4)

Post Regionalism HEC Champions

03-04 - Wasps
04-05 - Toulouse
05-06 - Munster
06-07 - Wasps
07-08 - Munster
08-09 - Leinster
09-10 - Toulouse
10-11 - Leinster
11-12 - Leinster

(Irish = 5, Englsih = 2, French = 2)

Post Regionalism Amlin Champions

03-04 - Wasps
04-05 - Harlequins
05-06 - Sale
06-07 - Clermont
07-08 - Bath
08-09 - Northampton
09-10 - Blues
10-11 - Harlequins
11-12 - Biarritz

(English = 5, French = 3, Welsh = 1)

Post Regionalism Anglo-Welsh Champions

03-04 - N/A
04-05 - N/A
05-06 - Wasps
06-07 - Leicester
07-08 - Ospreys
08-09 - Blues
09-10 - Northampton
10-11 - Gloucester
11-12 - Leicester

(English = 5, Welsh = 2)

Seeing as the regions are just entering their tenth season of existance, I think that is a pretty good return with regards to silverware. (Total European Silverware-: Irish = 5, English = 7, French = 5, Welsh = 1)
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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 21 Aug 2012, 10:48 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Seeing as the regions are just entering their tenth season of existance, I think that is a pretty good return with regards to silverware. (Total European Silverware-: Irish = 5, English = 7, French = 5, Welsh = 1)

It takes a pretty extreme version of Welsh over optimism to cast 1 Amlin in 9 years as a "pretty good return"

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 21 Aug 2012, 11:13 am

PSW - do you think you could create four teams and throw them in the Jeff and see a better return after 9 years? I ain't bragging that the regions are brilliant or anything like that, but I am pointing out to people who claim they never win anything that we have won 9 trophies in 9 seasons (between us) which is IMO not a bad return for entities that are only 9 seasons old.
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Post by Stone Motif Tue 21 Aug 2012, 12:56 pm

And it's certainly better than anything the Welsh clubs produced in the previous 10 years, which is the main point here.
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Post by Casartelli Tue 21 Aug 2012, 12:58 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:PSW - do you think you could create four teams and throw them in the Jeff and see a better return after 9 years? I ain't bragging that the regions are brilliant or anything like that, but I am pointing out to people who claim they never win anything that we have won 9 trophies in 9 seasons (between us) which is IMO not a bad return for entities that are only 9 seasons old.

The four teams weren't created out of thin air! - they were existing teams, rebadged. From the Scarlets website;

"The Llanelli Scarlets region was founded in July 2003 from the original Llanelli RFC when Welsh elite rugby was restructured by the WRU; with the Scarlets victorious in their battle to 'stand-alone' where others were merged to create the five which later become four, top flight rugby regions."

I agree that 9 trophies in 9/10 seasons sounds great. Until you compare it to what the Irish, French and English teams have achieved in the same period, and in the HC.

Compared to Italy and Scotland, we're doing fine I guess.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 21 Aug 2012, 1:42 pm

Casartelli wrote:I agree that 9 trophies in 9/10 seasons sounds great. Until you compare it to what the Irish, French and English teams have achieved in the same period, and in the HC.

Compared to Italy and Scotland, we're doing fine I guess.


(Post regional, not counting Jeff and t14 as they are not cross boarder competitions)

Wales = 9
Ireland = 9
England = 11
France = 7

Also then take into account that in the HEC there are twice as many Egnlish and French sides in the competition, and in the Amlin there are six times as many English and French sides, in the Anglo-Welsh there are three times as many English sides. We have more silverware than would be our fair share (mathematically speaking).

Casartelli wrote:The four teams weren't created out of thin air! - they were existing teams, rebadged. From the Scarlets website;

"The Llanelli Scarlets region was founded in July 2003 from the original Llanelli RFC when Welsh elite rugby was restructured by the WRU; with the Scarlets victorious in their battle to 'stand-alone' where others were merged to create the five which later become four, top flight rugby regions."

I ain't even gonna go down that route of arguement with you, been there too many times. I'll just make it easier and re-word my post-:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:PSW - do you think you could create three brand new teams and re-brand a financially struggling team and throw them in the Jeff and see a better return after 9 years? I ain't bragging that the regions are brilliant or anything like that, but I am pointing out to people who claim they never win anything that we have won 9 trophies in 9 seasons (between us) which is IMO not a bad return for entities that are only 9 seasons old.
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Post by Artful_Dodger Tue 21 Aug 2012, 1:52 pm

I have to say I think counting the Anglo-Welsh is pretty funny, counting the Amlin is bad enough. On the one hand you won't count Irish league victories before there were regions but you will count the Anglo-Welsh Cup which most countries can't compete in.

Lets some it up - 5 League victories isn't bad (still less than the Irish) but until a Welsh region wins the HC, I don't think regionalism has been a success. Not that I want rid of it.

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Post by Casartelli Tue 21 Aug 2012, 2:13 pm

And, in fairness, the stats are massively distorted by the successes of the Ospreys. When people talk about how regionalism has worked, they are actually referring to the team formerly known as Neath/Swansea Ospreys.

Perhaps the other three should go back to the Premiership and all WRU resources be diverted to the O's? Wouldn't be the worst plan ever - they did get us the first win at 'HQ' in twenty years, after all.

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Post by Stone Motif Tue 21 Aug 2012, 2:27 pm

Casartelli wrote:And, in fairness, the stats are massively distorted by the successes of the Ospreys. When people talk about how regionalism has worked, they are actually referring to the team formerly known as Neath/Swansea Ospreys.

Perhaps the other three should go back to the Premiership and all WRU resources be diverted to the O's? Wouldn't be the worst plan ever - they did get us the first win at 'HQ' in twenty years, after all.
Now you're known for writing comedy but you can't honestly have just written that can you? I'm starting to think you are Mike Cuddy.
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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 21 Aug 2012, 2:30 pm

Casartelli and Dodger - the whole issue with counting trophies etc comes from this post bellow:

Casartelli wrote:I'm a Welsh rugby fan - the test team is the important thing but I think the pro level could be a lot more successful also. Tribal/parochial rivalries are fun and there is a place for them - in the Premiership.

Now I have listed seven trophies that the regions have won, which lets be honest the welsh premiership sides failed to win in a longer history (bar the anglo-welsh as it didn't exist). As for this they don't count they are not HEC championships in which case the only national team that shouldn't be ditched in the NH is England as the rest of us have failed ot win an RWC, yes I know I sound like a pendant, but to be fair claiming that no trophy counts bar the HEC is a load of tosh.
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Post by Stone Motif Tue 21 Aug 2012, 2:57 pm

Especially as the Welsh regional set up prejudices the regions individual success in order to benefit the national team.
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