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England v SA. 4th ODI, Lords

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ShankyCricket
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eirebilly
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Post by eirebilly Sun 02 Sep 2012, 8:28 am

First topic message reminder :

Now that England have the number one position back, SA will be keen to beat them at Lords to regain the #1 spot and England will be desperate to consolidate the #1. This has the makings of a very good match.

I cant see any team making any changes from the third ODI.

England 1 Alastair Cook (capt), 2 Ian Bell, 3 Jonathan Trott, 4 Ravi Bopara, 5 Eoin Morgan, 6 Craig Kieswetter (wk), 7 Samit Patel, 8 James Tredwell, 9 Jade Dernbach, 10 James Anderson, 11 Steve Finn.

South Africa 1 Graeme Smith, 2 Hashim Amla, 3 JP Duminy, 4 Dean Elgar, 5 AB de Villiers (capt, wk), 6 Faf du Plessis, 7 Wayne Parnell, 8 Robin Peterson, 9 Dale Steyn, 10 Morne Morkel, 11 Lonwabo Tsotsobe.
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Post by alfie Tue 04 Sep 2012, 10:01 am

I'd agree with that. Maybe not what you'd want for the long term , but for a one-off match replacement for Trott I have no problem with using Bairstow at three.
If it doesn't work , at least the rest of the order is undisturbed ...and if he does get set , could work very nicely for this match. The more we see of Bairstow the better at the moment.

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Post by Shelsey93 Tue 04 Sep 2012, 10:37 am

Bairstow at three is a non-starter with the current plan - he's never performed that role in county cricket and is totally unsuited to facing the two new white balls. I'd have brought Taylor in, but with the same squad I can only assume either Trott will play (he hasn't been ruled out yet) or Bopara and Morgan will shuffle up with Bairstow coming in at 5.

That second plan isn't ideal for reasons I've said before - you want Morgan to come in around the 20th-25th over to get in before exploding in the last 15, but at No. 4 could find himself in at 10-2 and most likely out before the 36th over.

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Post by ShankyCricket Tue 04 Sep 2012, 10:42 am

Shelsey93 wrote:Bairstow at three is a non-starter with the current plan - he's never performed that role in county cricket and is totally unsuited to facing the two new white balls. I'd have brought Taylor in, but with the same squad I can only assume either Trott will play (he hasn't been ruled out yet) or Bopara and Morgan will shuffle up with Bairstow coming in at 5.

That second plan isn't ideal for reasons I've said before - you want Morgan to come in around the 20th-25th over to get in before exploding in the last 15, but at No. 4 could find himself in at 10-2 and most likely out before the 36th over.
Not sure why you don't want Morgan to come in early. He is not just a finisher. He can build an ODI innings and is a better batsman than Ravi. He has 3 ODI centuries compared to Ravi's none. So if Ravi is good enough to bat at 4, why not Morgan?

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Post by Shelsey93 Tue 04 Sep 2012, 10:49 am

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:Morgan isn't just a finisher. He can build an ODI innings and is a better batsman than Ravi. He has 3 ODI centuries compared to Ravi's none. So if Ravi is good enough to bat at 4, why not Morgan?

I think that his key role is to finish and that if he comes in too early you risk that happening less often. Bopara isn't a finisher particularly and so I'd rather see him playing the rebuilding innings than Eoin.

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Post by liverbnz Tue 04 Sep 2012, 3:26 pm

Shelsey93 wrote:Bairstow at three is a non-starter with the current plan - he's never performed that role in county cricket and is totally unsuited to facing the two new white balls. I'd have brought Taylor in, but with the same squad I can only assume either Trott will play (he hasn't been ruled out yet) or Bopara and Morgan will shuffle up with Bairstow coming in at 5.

That second plan isn't ideal for reasons I've said before - you want Morgan to come in around the 20th-25th over to get in before exploding in the last 15, but at No. 4 could find himself in at 10-2 and most likely out before the 36th over.

Bairstow plays at 4 for Yorkshire in List A and has come in at 3 on occasion. He does not play the 5-7 finisher that people seem to be labelling him as, most likely based on his T20 finals day innings and his short ODi career so far. He is more than equipped to play number 3 for England in ODis.

The only arguement is whether he has done enough at List A level to even earn his place in the ODi squad, but that horse has bolted.

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Post by Liam Tue 04 Sep 2012, 3:45 pm

stewie walters at 3 Whistle ............

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Post by Shelsey93 Tue 04 Sep 2012, 4:05 pm

liverbnz wrote:Bairstow plays at 4 for Yorkshire in List A and has come in at 3 on occasion. He does not play the 5-7 finisher that people seem to be labelling him as, most likely based on his T20 finals day innings and his short ODi career so far. He is more than equipped to play number 3 for England in ODis.

The only arguement is whether he has done enough at List A level to even earn his place in the ODi squad, but that horse has bolted.

At international level I'd say its quite clear that he's a finisher rather than a top order player. Of course at Yorkshire, where there won't be as much talent around as in an international dressing room, it is preferable for the team's best players to bat in the top 4. Also, the 40-over game with 1 new ball is very different from the 50-over game with 2 new balls.

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Post by skyeman Tue 04 Sep 2012, 5:55 pm

Jos Buttler has been included as cover for Trott who has been ruled out. Looks like a day in the dressing room for him then.

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Post by skyeman Tue 04 Sep 2012, 6:03 pm

A little monopoly money wager for the No3 slot.


Bell 8-1

Bops 4-1

JB 16-1

Kieswetter 20-1

Morgan 14-1

Lets see if you can guess right.

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Post by guildfordbat Tue 04 Sep 2012, 9:08 pm

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:The problem with Ravi though seems to be his infuriating inconsistency. He had a good ODI series at home against India last year. He played a good knock under pressure at Lord's and seemed like he had turned a corner. 15 days later, he couldn't buy a run against the same opposition in India. He had a good series against Oz this summer and now this. This is the problem with Ravi. Not that he is a bad player. Its also not true that he hasn't performed under pressure. He has in the past. The problem is this inconsistency. I think he deserves the next match and possibly a few T20IS but at some point, selectors will have to take a hard stance. The problem with Ravi is that when he is good, he is good. Even at his best, he won't destroy attacks in the manner that a KP does nor will he score the hundreds with the consistency of a Cook or a Trott. But he will score runs. But at his worst, he is utterly awful which makes it hard to stick with him during his lean run because even in good form, he is good but nothing special but when he is poor, he is really very bad. Not calling for his head yet. He deserves the next match and possibly the T20IS against SA but at some point, the selectors will have to take a hard line on his inconsistency.

Shanky - just catching up on my reading. A very good and open minded post.

I pretty much agree with it all although would question whether you're being a bit soft on Bopara in your ''what should happen next'' conclusion in your final couple of sentences.

I think it is very unlikely that Bopara, now at the age of twenty-seven, will ever discover the consistency that has eluded him for too much of his career. If inconsistency is a reason for ditching him (and we both seem to think it is), I would prefer the selectors to take the ''hard line'' sooner than later.

I appreciate in turn you and others may accuse me of being unnecessarily and prematurely harsh.

To be fair, Bopara's recent ODI bowling has certainly been more than handy and this considerably clouds the issue. However, I would query how long this particular effectiveness will last. If Bopara were to be used as a fairly regular ODI bowler, I suspect that leading opposition batsmen would seek to target him and fear a sort of ''second season syndrome''.

I appreciate and understand the comments that you, Shelsey and others have made about Bopara providing vital balance to the team. Bopara batting and bowling effectively would be immensely valuable. He would undoubtedly be a foundation of the team. However, are we sure that is what we want? It should be noted that a weak foundation can be incredibly dangerous. I can think of no better example than Fawlty Towers and the horrific realisation of ''It's a supporting wall, Mrs Fawlty!''. [Probably before your time but Skyeman and the Corporal should follow. Wink ]

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Post by skyeman Tue 04 Sep 2012, 9:19 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
shankythebiggestengfan wrote:The problem with Ravi though seems to be his infuriating inconsistency. He had a good ODI series at home against India last year. He played a good knock under pressure at Lord's and seemed like he had turned a corner. 15 days later, he couldn't buy a run against the same opposition in India. He had a good series against Oz this summer and now this. This is the problem with Ravi. Not that he is a bad player. Its also not true that he hasn't performed under pressure. He has in the past. The problem is this inconsistency. I think he deserves the next match and possibly a few T20IS but at some point, selectors will have to take a hard stance. The problem with Ravi is that when he is good, he is good. Even at his best, he won't destroy attacks in the manner that a KP does nor will he score the hundreds with the consistency of a Cook or a Trott. But he will score runs. But at his worst, he is utterly awful which makes it hard to stick with him during his lean run because even in good form, he is good but nothing special but when he is poor, he is really very bad. Not calling for his head yet. He deserves the next match and possibly the T20IS against SA but at some point, the selectors will have to take a hard line on his inconsistency.

Shanky - just catching up on my reading. A very good and open minded post.

I pretty much agree with it all although would question whether you're being a bit soft on Bopara in your ''what should happen next'' conclusion in your final couple of sentences.

I think it is very unlikely that Bopara, now at the age of twenty-seven, will ever discover the consistency that has eluded him for too much of his career. If inconsistency is a reason for ditching him (and we both seem to think it is), I would prefer the selectors to take the ''hard line'' sooner than later.

I appreciate in turn you and others may accuse me of being unnecessarily and prematurely harsh.

To be fair, Bopara's recent ODI bowling has certainly been more than handy and this considerably clouds the issue. However, I would query how long this particular effectiveness will last. If Bopara were to be used as a fairly regular ODI bowler, I suspect that leading opposition batsmen would seek to target him and fear a sort of ''second season syndrome''.

I appreciate and understand the comments that you, Shelsey and others have made about Bopara providing vital balance to the team. Bopara batting and bowling effectively would be immensely valuable. He would undoubtedly be a foundation of the team. However, are we sure that is what we want? It should be noted that a weak foundation can be incredibly dangerous. I can think of no better example than Fawlty Towers and the horrific realisation of ''It's a supporting wall, Mrs Fawlty!''. [Probably before your time but Skyeman and the Corporal should follow. Wink ]


Sorry don't understand,You'll have to forgive me. I am from from Barcelona. Very Happy

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Post by skyeman Tue 04 Sep 2012, 9:27 pm

Good point though GB, the cracks are being well papered over because of the 12 wins from 13, but one day...

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Post by guildfordbat Tue 04 Sep 2012, 9:35 pm

skyeman wrote:

Sorry don't understand,You'll have to forgive me. I am from from Barcelona. Very Happy

Laugh Laugh Laugh

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