The v2 Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain

+2
88Chris05
Rowley
6 posters

Go down

Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain Empty Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain

Post by Rowley Mon 03 Sep 2012, 10:15 pm

By 1889 with the exception of the excellent Peter Jackson who was never to get his shot due to the colour line policy that existed at the time John L Sullivan had proven himself the premier heavyweight in the world. As many will be aware John L often walked into bars and proclaimed in pretty boisterous terms that he could lick any SOB in the room, it was a claim few doubted and even fewer tested.

However the recent years had not been kind to Sullivan and in August 1888 he contracted an illness which he summarised as “I had typhoid fever, gastric fever, inflammation of the bowels, heart trouble and liver complaints all combined” When one considers the severity of the illnesses, the limited medical knowledge available at the time and John’s hard living lifestyle it is a genuine wonder he survived the illness. However what was even more remarkable was upon being kept to his bed for nine weeks Sullivan, within weeks of recovering announced his intention to defend his title against Jake Kilrain.

During Jack’s illness Jake Kilrain had emerged as a perceived threat to Sullivan’s reign, a report of his fight with Jem Smith in London was to say:

“There is not one impartial man in the city who believes that Sullivan has a three to one chance in a prize ring encounter with Kilrain”

When the challenge was made many were surprised to see Sullivan issue the challenge under bareknuckle London Prize Ring rules rather than the Queensbury rules, particularly as John L was known to prefer fighting with gloves. We can only speculate as to why he agreed to this but maybe the pride of wanting to prove he was still the toughest SOB in the room after his illness may have played a part. Whatever the reason the articles were signed for $10,000 dollar a side and the fight was set for July 1889.

As mentioned earlier many saw Kilrain as a genuine threat and the indications are very much that Sully agreed, in May 89 Sullivan moved to the farm of William Muldoon who agreed to train John for the fight and remove him from the city which was wonderfully described as “not healthy for a man so easily led from the paths of sobriety” Muldoon was not only a strict disciplinarian and fitness fanatic but was also a fine wrestler, skills which were still paramount in a London Prize Ring rules fight.

As tended to be the case in boxing’s barely legal days rumours and counter rumours swirled around about where the fight would be held and many politician and state governor made sabre rattling pronouncements about the consequences of it happening in their jurisdiction, however eventually a site of Richburg Mississippi was agreed. As tends to be the case reports of the attendance differ but most pitch it between 2000 and 3000.

In a similar vein reports differ about the fighters weights, most have Kilrain about the 195 mark but Jack is reported as being anywhere between the 205 to 217 mark. Whilst reports differ about the weight of the fighters and attendance what is not in any doubt is that the weather on the day of the fight was hot, damned hot with the thermometer touching 108 degrees Fahrenheit, so hot was it that many in the crowd came close to fainting and they were not required to exchange blows, as were Sullivan and Kilrain.

Initially the local sheriff said the fight could not be allowed to proceed but after a few words and a $250 bribe from Muldoon he soon forgot his objections and or duty and settled down to watch the action with the rest of the crowd.

The early rounds were cagey, Kilrain often employed wrestling tactics and throws which meant some of the rounds were little more than a few seconds long. The first action of note came in the 6th when a shot to Sullivan’s right ear drew blood. This was significant as who drew first blood was heavily bet on at the time and this does appear to have roused John L somewhat because he immediately dropped Kilrain for the first knockdown of the fight.

The next few rounds seem to have been characterised by Kilrain stalling and going down without much in the way of a punch being needed to facilitate this. However whatever the accuracy of this Kilrain as still there after 42 rounds and began to rally to the point in the 44th where Sullivan began to vomit when he came to scratch for the round. Despite encouragement from his corner to take advantage and punish Sullivan whilst weakened Kilrain, to his eternal credit refused and said he would not hit Jack until he had finished vomiting.

Whilst one can only admire the sportsmanship displayed by Jake one would perhaps have to wonder if he would live to rue his commendable actions because after his little break Jack was a fighter reborn and he dropped Kilrain almost immediately and was rarely in trouble again throughout the fight. The same alas cannot be said of Kilrain who was all but exhausted and was shipping a fearsome beating. However he did not lack for courage and the fight continued for 75 rounds and nigh on two and half hours. Despite being asked on many an occasion whether he would like to quit Kilrain constantly refused as the contract stipulated it was winner takes all. To end the slaughter fighter Charley Mitchell asked Sullivan if he would give Kilrain $1000 if he agreed to quit but still Kilrain refused. Fortunately his cornerman Mike Donovan had seen more than enough and threw in the sponge, saying that “he did not want to be party to a murder.”

Despite his reputation (probably deserved) for boorishness Sullivan was quick to acknowledge the trouble Kilrain had given him and that he had given him a better fight than he had ever had before, although he did add that had he not employed such a judicious use of falling over he would have finished the job a lot sooner.

This was to be the last heavyweight title fight fought under the London Prize Ring rules, Sullivan would soon lose his title to James Corbett and he would usher in a more scientific and sophisticated approach to the game. However the Prize Ring had gone out in style with one of its greatest practitioners triumphing in one of the longest and most brutal battles that had ever been waged.

Rowley
Admin
Admin

Posts : 22053
Join date : 2011-02-17
Age : 51
Location : I'm just a symptom of the modern decay that's gnawing at the heart of this country.

Back to top Go down

Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain Empty Re: Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain

Post by 88Chris05 Mon 03 Sep 2012, 11:16 pm

You've outdone yourself this time, Jeff - brilliant article.

For me, Sullivan-Kilrain is THE quintessential, ultra-legendary bare knuckle showdown, not only for the depth in which it's been covered but also for the historical significance of it.

As you say, the fact that Sullivan elected to defend his crown under the London Prize Ring rules is a little odd; he'd already boxed a few exhibitions under the Marquess of Queensbury rules beforehand and, when asked to explain the difference to those who weren't in the know, he simply responded, "Fighting under the new rules in front of gentleman is a pleasure."

Never knew about the bribe from Muldoon - it's little bits and pieces like that which make these articles so valuable.

I think the fight brought the bare knuckle era to a fitting end, because Sullivan simply won by doing what he did best - outlasting, outtoughing and grinding down the other man. This fight represents the final stage in boxing history in which prize fighting was considered more or less to be all about strength and brute force - the Corbett years helped to usher in a more scientific approach, much closer to the sport we follow now.

Mind you, I'm sure the two of them ended up wishing that they'd signed for the fight under the new rules - I've read in a book by Gilbert Odd that Sullivan was fined $500, and Kilrain was given two months in the slammer on an assault-and-battery charge! Until then, there was still a chance that the London Prize Ring rules could have remained numero uno for a while yet had Sullivan wanted them to do so - he had that much power in the sport back then - but his feeling of victimisation in the aftermatch of this fight forced him to say he'd never accept a bare knuckle fight again and, hey presto, the gloved era was gone.

Anyway, he certainly seems to have all but finished Kilrain, who went from hot property to being easily beaten by Corbett not too long afterwards, and I believe that this was against a Corbett who was around 20 lb lighter when they met.

It's amazing that, despite the purse of $10,000 (staggering really, considering the time and the fact that boxing was barely legal anyway), Sullivan earned so much more from his exhibition tours, including the $50 wagers to any man in the audience who thought he could beat the champion, than he did in the squared circle - according to his biographer Donald Chidsey, Sullivan earned $83,000 from such tours alone. No wonder he had such a "take it, leave it" attitude to bare knuckle fighting by the late 1880s!

Anyway, a great read there, Jeff. Thanks for that.
88Chris05
88Chris05
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 9650
Join date : 2011-02-16
Age : 35
Location : Nottingham

Back to top Go down

Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain Empty Re: Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain

Post by The Galveston Giant Mon 03 Sep 2012, 11:47 pm

Yeah nice one Jeff. 10,000 bucks is a shedload for the time.
The Galveston Giant
The Galveston Giant

Posts : 5333
Join date : 2011-02-23
Age : 39
Location : Scotland

Back to top Go down

Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain Empty Re: Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain

Post by milkyboy Tue 04 Sep 2012, 9:06 am

Fine work rowley, a very good read

milkyboy

Posts : 7761
Join date : 2011-05-22

Back to top Go down

Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain Empty Re: Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain

Post by Rowley Tue 04 Sep 2012, 10:56 am

Cheers for the kind comments folk, will admit I have something of a soft spot for Sullivan, think his ability gets under appreciated quite a lot, he was perceived as absolutely dominant in his era and his results be they bareknuckle, Queensbury or exhibitions tended to support this. As Chris has alluded to Sullivan often gave exhibitions where folk would be paid $1000 if they could go 4 rounds with him, whilst this attracted a good number of have a go hard men it also attracted some half decent fighters and the number of times Sully paid out can be counted on one hand and these tended to be when guys had adopted underhand tactics such as going over without being hit.

Is extremely difficult to know where to rank him as he did not really fight enough under strict Queensbury rules to build up a record that is comparable to the other greats we commonly see in top tens and 20’s but in terms of popularity and significance in the development of the sport he has few equals.

Rowley
Admin
Admin

Posts : 22053
Join date : 2011-02-17
Age : 51
Location : I'm just a symptom of the modern decay that's gnawing at the heart of this country.

Back to top Go down

Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain Empty Re: Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain

Post by 88Chris05 Tue 04 Sep 2012, 11:09 am

Jeff, on an old computer of mine I have some pictures from the local paper which covered the fight (think it was simply called the 'Police Gazette', but don't hold that as gospel) which help to illustrate that frenzy that Sullivan and Kilrain whipped the crowd in to. Will try to find them at some point and post them if I can - they may be available somewhere else online but I'm not totally sure.
88Chris05
88Chris05
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 9650
Join date : 2011-02-16
Age : 35
Location : Nottingham

Back to top Go down

Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain Empty Re: Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain

Post by Mind the windows Tino. Thu 06 Sep 2012, 9:58 am

Another great read Jeff. Brutal fight and worthy of an article.

People have already commented on the finances involved and how staggering they are, but I have read stuff about Sullivan that puts them in stratospheric terms for his era. There has been some research that suggests he actually earned just over a million dollars during his career. Obviously not all of this was from prizefighting, but when his tours, exhibitions, side bets, theatrical commitments and public appearances are taken into account, he really was the first sporting superstar in a financial context. I appreciate that details and statistics from that era can be a little apocryphal but the fact he earned a staggering amount of money is not in dispute. Whether it was actually over a million bucks is probably up for debate but he certainly raked in incredible sums of money.

It should be noted, however, that he was a bully, a wife beater, a drunkard and a braggart, but there is no doubting his charisma, talent and impact on prizefighting and American sporting culture.

He is a fascinating character, coming from a poor working class Irish American background to having a friendship with Theodore Roosevelt and achieving genuine sporting greatness.

He makes Truss's rise from obscurity to good ole US of A hero status look like small change.

Cracking article.

Mind the windows Tino.
Beano
Beano

Posts : 20960
Join date : 2011-05-13
Location : Your knuckles whiten on the wheel. The last thing that Julius will feel, your final flight can't be delayed. No earth just sky it's so serene, your pink fat lips let go a scream. You fry and melt, I love the scene.

Back to top Go down

Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain Empty Re: Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain

Post by Rowley Thu 06 Sep 2012, 10:05 am

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

It should be noted, however, that he was a bully, a wife beater, a drunkard and a braggart, but there is no doubting his charisma, talent and impact on prizefighting and American sporting culture.

Cracking article.

Cheers Tina, you should probably also add shameless racist to your list as well.

Rowley
Admin
Admin

Posts : 22053
Join date : 2011-02-17
Age : 51
Location : I'm just a symptom of the modern decay that's gnawing at the heart of this country.

Back to top Go down

Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain Empty Re: Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain

Post by 88Chris05 Thu 06 Sep 2012, 10:15 am

Just over a million dollars seems to be the figure more or less agreed upon by those who've studied Sullivan at length, Tino. But what's more remarkable is that he managed to drink his way through it all - it was cirrhosis of the liver which saw him off as you know, but apparently when he died, they found the whole of what was left of his estate tucked under his pillow - one ten dollar bill, and a five. And apparently, that was it.
88Chris05
88Chris05
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 9650
Join date : 2011-02-16
Age : 35
Location : Nottingham

Back to top Go down

Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain Empty Re: Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain

Post by Mind the windows Tino. Thu 06 Sep 2012, 10:26 am

Wow, I didn't realise he was left with just $15 out of all that money, incredible really. Nice anecdote, Chris.

He may well of been the first, but he certainly won't the last superstar boxer to leave the sport having blown everything that he had worked hard for.


Mind the windows Tino.
Beano
Beano

Posts : 20960
Join date : 2011-05-13
Location : Your knuckles whiten on the wheel. The last thing that Julius will feel, your final flight can't be delayed. No earth just sky it's so serene, your pink fat lips let go a scream. You fry and melt, I love the scene.

Back to top Go down

Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain Empty Re: Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain

Post by Guest Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:56 pm

Rowley,once more I extend the hand of gratitude for an article, but this time with particular appreciation because whilst not my favourite boxer(!)Sullivan is my favourite subject matter in boxing.
He was actually locked up wasn't he, for illegal prizefighting? Whatever the objections to him as a human being,which one is entitled to have(Norman Mailer I believe stabbed his wife in the chest,but it doesn't stop him being rated as a literary great) ,Sullivan fought for the sport as well as helping to create it, insisting on Queensbury Rules as you know, and as such is a Hall of Fame shoe-in for my money.
Having personally been in contact with Sullivan's relatives in the States I have heard anecdotally that his fahter, although a short man,beat him quite horrifically as a boy, and the stigma of being 2nd generation Irish ,this is purely my speculation,may be enough for him to have a warped idea of promoting his own patriotic image.I've not been able to get my mitts on the Pollock autobiography, but it's one thing I am looking forward to with relish,so to anyone who is interested in Sullivan ,I would echo you sir Jeff and point them in that direction.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain Empty Re: Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain

Post by Rowley Thu 06 Sep 2012, 3:05 pm

Cheers Andy, I believe you are right in saying he was locked up for the fight. You are also right in saying Sullivan was instrumental in making and legitimizing the leap towards the gloved era. I often compare it with the Floyd and drug testing situation. Sullivan was meant to favour gloves because as a heavy hitter bareknuckle affairs wreaked too heavy a price on his hands so in favouring the gloves was not acting solely to better the sport, if indeed at all but as his actions and stance was proven to be correct he often receives credit for pushing the sport out of the dark ages. We can see a similar sea change happening before our eyes with Floyd and his stance on drugs where as the extent of the problem becomes apparent many opinions are softening on Floyd making such a request.

Should also echo your recommendation of Pollack’s book given 99% of this article came directly from it.

Rowley
Admin
Admin

Posts : 22053
Join date : 2011-02-17
Age : 51
Location : I'm just a symptom of the modern decay that's gnawing at the heart of this country.

Back to top Go down

Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain Empty Re: Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain

Post by Guest Thu 06 Sep 2012, 3:14 pm

Quite, and whilst being a boorish man ,as you say, he was no way unintelligent.Windy was kind enough to email me a scan of a newspaper article in which Sullivan commented on the Jeffries/Johnson fight ,and he was very eloquent and perceptive in my opinion.
As Tino states he did indeed hang with President Roosevalt, but not only that I believe I'm right in saying that the then Prince of Wales, Edward VII sought him out as a playmate well. amazing lifestory, strange that Hollywood hasn't attempted it yet, however if the turgid "ali" film took three hours, it would need at least double that time to tell Sullivan's story,eh !

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain Empty Re: Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain

Post by Mind the windows Tino. Thu 06 Sep 2012, 3:22 pm

andygf wrote:Quite, and whilst being a boorish man ,as you say, he was no way unintelligent.Windy was kind enough to email me a scan of a newspaper article in which Sullivan commented on the Jeffries/Johnson fight ,and he was very eloquent and perceptive in my opinion.
As Tino states he did indeed hang with President Roosevalt, but not only that I believe I'm right in saying that the then Prince of Wales, Edward VII sought him out as a playmate well. amazing lifestory, strange that Hollywood hasn't attempted it yet, however if the turgid "ali" film took three hours, it would need at least double that time to tell Sullivan's story,eh !

Andy, I hope my post didn't come across as dismissive of Sullivan, it was only to give a bit of balance. He was a true pioneer and a legitimate 'great' who will forever be ingrained in boxing folklore. But, as with all our heroes, sporting or not, he had his flaws and they shouldn't be ignored.

Another good book is John L Sullivan and his Times (sometimes called John L Sullivan and his America) by Michael T Isenburg. Listening to Jeff, it won't be as detailed as Pollacks in terms of charting his record, but nonetheless, it is an entertaining study of his life and times.

Mind the windows Tino.
Beano
Beano

Posts : 20960
Join date : 2011-05-13
Location : Your knuckles whiten on the wheel. The last thing that Julius will feel, your final flight can't be delayed. No earth just sky it's so serene, your pink fat lips let go a scream. You fry and melt, I love the scene.

Back to top Go down

Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain Empty Re: Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain

Post by Boxtthis Thu 06 Sep 2012, 3:30 pm

Loved this. Great read. I have an old 'History of the Heavyweight Championship' book that's my go to sitting-on-the-toilet read - it starts with Sullivan vs Corbett. Nice to read some of the pre-history. Got to love Sullivan and his crazy 'tash. I mean, vomiting in the ring and then getting up to score a stoppage? Imagine Floyd Mayweather getting up to fight again post-spew? Tough boys!

Boxtthis

Posts : 1374
Join date : 2011-02-28
Location : Glasgow

Back to top Go down

Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain Empty Re: Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain

Post by Rowley Thu 06 Sep 2012, 3:37 pm

To be honest Tina you could have been at every fight or exhibition Sullivan ever gave and would struggle to match the detail Pollack goes into however if there was a criticism of his books, and I say this as a massive fan, is they don’t particularly cover the fighters lives outside the ring, which is probably whilst from Corbett onwards they are called “In the Ring with….” Will be interesting to see how he deals with Johnson because would imagine it would be nigh on impossible to write about Jack without mentioning the racial stuff and colour line.

Rowley
Admin
Admin

Posts : 22053
Join date : 2011-02-17
Age : 51
Location : I'm just a symptom of the modern decay that's gnawing at the heart of this country.

Back to top Go down

Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain Empty Re: Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain

Post by The Galveston Giant Thu 06 Sep 2012, 3:45 pm

Yep never thought about that Jeff, you would imagine he will cover it, certainly hope so.
The Galveston Giant
The Galveston Giant

Posts : 5333
Join date : 2011-02-23
Age : 39
Location : Scotland

Back to top Go down

Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain Empty Re: Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain

Post by Mind the windows Tino. Thu 06 Sep 2012, 3:49 pm

rowley wrote:To be honest Tina you could have been at every fight or exhibition Sullivan ever gave and would struggle to match the detail Pollack goes into however if there was a criticism of his books, and I say this as a massive fan, is they don’t particularly cover the fighters lives outside the ring, which is probably whilst from Corbett onwards they are called “In the Ring with….” Will be interesting to see how he deals with Johnson because would imagine it would be nigh on impossible to write about Jack without mentioning the racial stuff and colour line.

It's the polar opposite to Isenburg's book, Jeff. It uses the Kilrain fight as a focal point, but I didn't get the impression that the author is a 'boxing' fan in the traditional sense, more that he found Sullivan interesting and built the book around his life accordingly. You can tell from the prose how all the out of the ring stuff got his juices flowing more than the technical aspects of the fight.

As I say, I haven't read any of his work, but I would imagine Pollack has to touch on Johnson's extra-curricular activity. Too big a character, as is Sullivan, not to at least attempt it.

When I have more spare time, I have plans to start the Pollack series.


Mind the windows Tino.
Beano
Beano

Posts : 20960
Join date : 2011-05-13
Location : Your knuckles whiten on the wheel. The last thing that Julius will feel, your final flight can't be delayed. No earth just sky it's so serene, your pink fat lips let go a scream. You fry and melt, I love the scene.

Back to top Go down

Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain Empty Re: Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain

Post by Rowley Thu 06 Sep 2012, 3:54 pm

He did say he was going to cover all the race it the last time I spoke to him about the book. Does make you wonder how big the book is going to end up as. Jeffries was 600+ pages and nobody drew the colour line against him and he did not fight particularly many fights, between fighting more frequently, the prison sentence and the colour line Johnson has the potential to be huge.

Rowley
Admin
Admin

Posts : 22053
Join date : 2011-02-17
Age : 51
Location : I'm just a symptom of the modern decay that's gnawing at the heart of this country.

Back to top Go down

Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain Empty Re: Bareknuckle Classics - Sullivan vs Kilrain

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum