Ulster v Munster Friday 14th Sept. Discussion Thread

[Rava]

Ulster XV & replacements to face Munster, RaboDirect PRO12, Friday 14th September, Ravenhill (7.05pm):
(15-9): J Payne; A Trimble, D Cave, L Marshall, M Allen; P Jackson, P Marshall;
(1-8): T Court, N Brady, J Afoa, J Muller (c), L Stevenson, S Ferris, S Doyle, N Williams;
Replacements (16-23): R Herring, C Black, D Fitzpatrick, N McComb, M McComish, M Heaney, P Nelson, C Gilroy.

Ulster Ravens team and replacements to face Munster A, Friday 14th September, Deramore, Park, Belfast (kick off 3pm):
(15-9):Ricky Andrew, Chris Colvin, Stuart McCloskey, Nevin Spence, Chris Cochrane; Niall O’Connor, Blane McIlroy;
(1-8): Richard Lutton, Niall Annett, Conor Carey, Alan O’Connor, Dan Tuohy, Iain Henderson, Chris Henry (c), Sean O’Connell;
Replacements (16-23): John Burns, Michael Cromie, Glenn Sinnamon, James Simpson, Neil Faloon, Scott Gibson, Ritchie McMaster, Michael McCauley.

Munster: Denis Hurley; Doug Howlett Capt., Casey Laulala, James Downey, Luke O’Dea; Ian Keatley, Duncan Williams; Dave Kilcoyne, Damien Varley, BJ Botha; Donncha O’Callaghan, Billy Holland; Dave O’Callaghan, Sean Dougall, James Coughlan. Replacements: Mike Sherry, Marcus Horan, Stephen Archer, Dave Foley, Tommy O’Donnell, Conor Murray, Ronan O’Gara, Keith Earls.

Munster A: Sean Scanlon; Ronan O’Mahony, Danny Barnes, JJ Hanrahan, Ivan Dineen; Scott Deasy, Peter Stringer; James Cronin, Sean Henry, Christy Condon; Philip Donnellan, Brian Hayes; Niall Ronan, Barry O’Mahony, Paddy Butler. Replacements: Duncan Casey, Kevin Griffin, Alan Cotter, Cathal O’Flaherty, Shane Buckley, Cathal Sheridan, Corey Hircock, Cian Bohane.

[Rava]

Ulster can call on two more internationals for the visit of Munster to Ravenhill this Friday night after Dan Tuohy and Chris Henry were included in Mark Anscombe's 26 man squad...

Stephen Ferris, who returned to action on Saturday night as a substitute in the 13-16 win over Ospreys, is set to win his 100th cap for the Province.

Robbie Diack has failed to overcome a leg injury picked up in the win over Glasgow two weeks ago and therefore misses out.

[Rava]

So we are gradually getting towards full strength. As in the past two weeks Tuohy and Henry will have to settle for a bench place, at best. Maybe a run out with the Ravens.

It is getting more difficult for Anscombe to pick the team now as competition is growing for every position.

I'm thinking of:,

Court
Herring
Afoa
Muller
Stevenson
Ferris
Doyle
Williams
Marshall
Jackson
Allen
Marshall
Cave
Gilroy
Payne

Brady
Black
Fitzpatrick
McCombe
Henry
Heaney
NOC
Trimble

The others to Deramore in the afternoon.

[rodders]

You don't think Trimble will start Rava?

[Kingshu]

why are Keith Earls and Conor Murray available and Best and Wallace are not, I'm guessing its because they are younger and can recover quicker?

I'd have Trimble on bench to come on as well, bring the internationals back slowly and let the younger players (who have do well, more gametime).

We saw last week how important an experienced bench is to turn close games.

I'd start McComish and bring Ferris on, after all he did play his best game for Ulster last week, lets try and build his confidence to be adecent Pro 12 level player.

Next game away against Zebre, I'd rest Muller, Afoa and Williams, they are important and when we have both Tuohy and Stevenson, against weaker opponents we should take the chance to rest the NIQ players, as they will play a lot of games when the internationals are away.

[Rava]

Kings I wouldn't really argue with you other than the Ferris for McComish one. This is one of our toughest games and if Ferris is fit enough, and he looked it on Sat, then he must start. The younger players responded positively to Ferris' introduction in that game.
The reason I benched Henry ahead of McComish is he covers all three backrow positions.

I think the reason Best and Wallace are behind the others is in recovery from injury. May be wrong though.

Rodders, I think Allen has been excellent and I would start him. I am probably wrong on that one though. I won't be surprised to see Trimble start. If he does I wonder will it be in the 11 or 14 shirt. That in itself might be significant.

[rodders]

An astute point Rava, an astute point.

[clivemcl]

I've watched most games too, and I've noticed Allen make the odd decent tackle, but honestly not sure where everyone is getting it from that he's fantastic.

Has he really been better than Cochrane Seymour Gaston has been in the past?

[rodders]

Thought he did really well in the build up to Marshalls try last week. Missed the Glasgow game.

[Kingshu]

Actually agree with you Rodders, Ferris did seam to hurt his should a bit, but prob just a wee knock,

Its hard on McComish that he plays his best game and then doesn't make the bench.

I'd start him against Zebre next week for sure. the problem that we could have is with so much competation fo rplaces keeping everyone happy.

Leinster are great at it (seams to be easier to be a bit part player in winning teams than losing teams)

We had probs last year with Barker going awol because he wasn't playing.

Lets hope that Anscombe is as good at it as Schmidt.

I take it D'arcy should be on the unavailable for selection list?

[Notch]

I really hope we see this team;

15) Jared Payne
14) Craig Gilroy
13) Darren Cave
12) Luke Marshall
11) Michael Allen
10) Paddy Jackson
9) Paul Marshall

1) Tom Court
2) Rob Herring
3) John Afoa
4) Johann Muller
5) Lewis Stevenson
6) Stephen Ferris
7) Sean Doyle
8) Nick Williams

Bench
Nigel Brady, Declan Fitzpatrick, Callum Black, Dan Tuohy, Chris Henry, Michael Heaney, Niall O’Connor, Andrew Trimble

That would be beast. It will take time to gel though. You can tell how far we are off truly gelling as a side if you rewatch the Os game.

[Rava]

Notch, not for the first time you and I are singing off the same hymn sheet. I am seriously getting worried ..

[BoyneRFC]

So have we seen the last of Trimble in an Ireland shirt? Certainly looks like it?

[rodders]

He's only 27 so don't see any reason to write him off. Less than 12 months ago he was the form 3/4 in the country.

He hasn't hit top form since January but he's got plenty of rugby in him yet. Gilroy looks the man in form though.

[BoyneRFC]

But if Trimble isn't even getting on the fans picks for an Ulster team, I won't hold out much hope for him.

Not saying he is finished, mind you, but it's not looking good for him, unfortunately.

I guess this is the season of Gilroy's live... stand and deliver ect.

Oh and I agree that Trimble was a top 3 performer for Ireland last year. I will be keeping my eye on Gilroy.

[Rava]

Boyne, Trimble has only just come back in. If the guys in the team weren't performing then I would certainly pick him. It will do him no harm to earn his place back in the side.
If I had to pick my two wingers for our first HC game today then it would be Bowe and Trimble. If there was an International game in the next few weeks then both Bowe and Trimble would be among the favourites to land a starting place.

[Sin é]

Rob Penney's thoughts on Ulster

The former Canterbury coach’s past encounters with Anscombe, who coached Northland and Auckland in the ITM Cup, which Penney’s side won four seasons in-a-row before Munster came calling, suggest an increase in physicality will be required by his players, although his record of not having lost to one of Anscombe’s sides in five meetings perhaps prompted a diplomacy-induced bout of amnesia.

"I don’t know…"Penney replied when asked about the unbeaten record, "he’s a good man but he comes from Auckland. Canterbury people and Auckland people don’t always align in their thinking so we’ve had some good struggles.

As for Anscombe’s Ulster, Penney can already see his compatriot’s hand in their style of play this season.

"There are certainly bits and pieces I’ve seen that have originated out of Mark’s play-books. It’s good, and it’s good that the Ulster boys are buying into what he’s trying to do."

Not least at the breakdown, where Anscombe is a noted specialist in his homeland and Ulster certainly got Munster’s number in that department when the provinces met at Thomond Park in last April’s Heineken Cup quarter-final.
"It’s a massive part of the game and Mark is knowledgeable in that area," Penney said. "It would be horrible to think that it was just that one facet of the game that would determine your outcome.

"Every week you’ve to be good there and I think the boys have been pretty efficient.

" We’ve still got some areas of growth but yeah, Ulster are bloody good there, they’re robust and physical and they did a job on Munster last year. We’ve just got to prepare ourselves for that level of intensity again."

[rodders]

Good man sin, are you coming up for this one?

[Sin é]

Good man sin, are you coming up for this one?

Na, I'd be afraid to come up

If I get to see it on TV on Friday, I'll be lucky! Why do you always have your matches on a Friday evening - are you afraid you might get some away fans?

[Don Alfonso]

But if Trimble isn't even getting on the fans picks for an Ulster team, I won't hold out much hope for him.

I think DOC's continued presence in the Ireland team about year ago shows that it can be done.

Although, I have to say I personally am more excited about seeing what Gilroy does than Trimble this season.

[Rava]

Good man sin, are you coming up for this one?

Na, I'd be afraid to come up

If I get to see it on TV on Friday, I'll be lucky! Why do you always have your matches on a Friday evening - are you afraid you might get some away fans?

Ah come on, come on. At least to keep Stag company on the train

[Notch]

why are Keith Earls and Conor Murray available and Best and Wallace are not, I'm guessing its because they are younger and can recover quicker?

Nope, Wallace and Best are both injured. Bowe and O'Connell are not fully fit yet either. All internationals are now available.

[rodders]

Good man sin, are you coming up for this one?

Na, I'd be afraid to come up

If I get to see it on TV on Friday, I'll be lucky! Why do you always have your matches on a Friday evening - are you afraid you might get some away fans?

I am an away fan

Come up Sin buddy we'll look after you ....

[Notch]

So have we seen the last of Trimble in an Ireland shirt? Certainly looks like it?

No, you don't understand, I'd see Trimble as first choice still. It just so happens Michael Allen has played more rugby than him and is therefore more match fit. Trimble will come on for the second half and start next week.

It's like last week Ferris started on the bench along with Trimble. That doesn't mean he's behind Mike McComish...

[rodders]

It's like last week Ferris started on the bench along with Trimble. That doesn't mean he's behind Mike McComish...

Take that Boyne!

[Sin é]

Good man sin, are you coming up for this one?

Na, I'd be afraid to come up

If I get to see it on TV on Friday, I'll be lucky! Why do you always have your matches on a Friday evening - are you afraid you might get some away fans?

Ah come on, come on. At least to keep Stag company on the train

I'd hazard a guess that Stag would prefer his own company to mine

[Sin é]

Good man sin, are you coming up for this one?

Na, I'd be afraid to come up

If I get to see it on TV on Friday, I'll be lucky! Why do you always have your matches on a Friday evening - are you afraid you might get some away fans?

I am an away fan

Come up Sin buddy we'll look after you ....

Wouldn't be the first time that the away fans weren't shouting for the same team.

To be in Belfast at 7pm on Friday is not on.

[rodders]

Lets not exaggerate Sin... kick off isn't until 7.05pm....

Plenty of time to get there from Dublin, flip you'll probably get there before me...actually you can get the first round in

[Notch]

I agree, it annoys me a lot. Not Friday night kick-offs, Friday night kick-offs are really special.

But they should be at 8pm, 7.30 at the earliest. Unfortunately it's not our decision. BBC NI decide that one as far as I know.

[Sin é]

I think all interpros should be on a Saturday where there is a good chance of people travelling to the game. There won't be too many Munster fans in Ravenhill at the weekend which is a pity.

[Don Alfonso]

Typically, I'm pretty pessimistic about Ulster's chances, game after game. But I'm feeling pretty bullish about this one.

I'll be disappointed and frustrated if we don't win this, and set down a marker.

[Rava]

I think all interpros should be on a Saturday where there is a good chance of people travelling to the game. There won't be too many Munster fans in Ravenhill at the weekend which is a pity.

I'm getting worried now. That's twice today I have found myself agreeing with you

[geoff998rugby]

Sorry Ulster are not going to play games on Saturday when all records and surveys have shown crowds are lower. Why should we take a financial hit.

In Ulster it frees up people for AIB and club matches on the Saturday.
Many people involved in those matches can only go on a Friday - I know a few

What would help is if they were at a later kick off but as stated that is outside our control

[geoff998rugby]

KOTH hill who has inside knowledge say this team is close but not exact:

15) Jared Payne
14) Craig Gilroy
13) Darren Cave
12) Luke Marshall
11) Andrew Trimble
10) Paddy Jackson
9) Paul Marshall

1) Tom Court
2) Rob Herring
3) John Afoa
4) Johann Muller
5) Lewis Stevenson
6) Stephen Ferris
7) Sean Doyle
Nick Williams

Bench
Nigel Brady, Declan Fitzpatrick, Callum Black, Dan Tuohy, Chris Henry, Michael Heaney, Niall O’Connor, Michael Allen

So what is the error?

Regarding the Allen/Trimble question - sorry for me it has to be Trimble.
Allen has been steady but is primarily a centre. He does not have the pace of Trimble and would be up against Howlett - it simply has to be Trimble for me. A no brainer.

I must find out what has happened about D'Arcy and Spence as they both hoped to be back this week. I suspect that they are not being rushed and will get a run out away to Zebre

[Rava]

Geoff the guy suggested that Interpros might be played on a Saturday. There wouldn't be any financial hit if we were playing either Leinster or Munster on a Saturday as both would be full houses.

[Sin é]

Sorry Ulster are not going to play games on Saturday when all records and surveys have shown crowds are lower. Why should we take a financial hit.

In Ulster it frees up people for AIB and club matches on the Saturday.
Many people involved in those matches can only go on a Friday - I know a few

What would help is if they were at a later kick off but as stated that is outside our control

The interpros are usually well attended. You might have a problem with Aironi on a Saturday night, but I think people would still turn up to see Munster or Leinster on a Saturday night (7pm) in Ravenhill. That way, you would supporters travelling to Belfast and possibly staying the night which would be good for the local economy.

Leinster like their Friday nights in the RDS, but they have Munster on a Saturday night in the Aviva (and have sold 27K tickets to it already). Last season, Munster had Leinster in Thomond on a Saturday night (7.30) and got 26.5K. Having matches after 6pm would leave plenty of time for people to play their AIL games (both Leinster & Munster play in the AIL as well!).

All I'm suggesting is that it might be good for Irish rugby, for the Belfast local economy if Ulster rugby tried to hold 3 games a season on a Saturday night in Ravenhill.

[Don Alfonso]

The Indo says Ferris, Trimble, Cave, Court, Marshall and Jackson to start, Henry and Tuohy off the bench.

If that team above isn't quite right, I'd say possible alternatives are Brady and McConish to start. McComish was a different player against the Ospreys, and I couldn't begrudge him it, although I have had minimal faith in him in the past.

[rodders]

I'm with you sin old bean.

It's unfortunate too that BBC insist on 7.05 KO as well as 7.45 or 8pm would give people outside Belshaft more time to get there. That's BBC NI though and I'm all for the coverage so what can you do?

A four round trip car journey, a 3/4s of a KM sprint, 4 , a tuna crepe, watching 80min of rugby in the rain, after a days work is fine once in a while but its not good for my health man....

[geoff998rugby]

You cant just talk about the crowd numbers though - what about TV.

It is signifcant, that this year every Pro12 game arranged so far is a Friday - I suspect TV has a hand in that.
If the game was on a Saturday and it was not shown we would lose out on TV revenue. Also it may be that TV is able to apply a lot of pressure for the games to be on Friday nights. That would include the Inter Pros

[Sin é]

BBCNI (as well as RTE) are broadcasting Munster v Ulster which is on a Sat night (5.30) from Thomond Park. BBCNI will want the games which attract big viewerships (which is what the interpros do).

Munster tend to have most games on a Saturday - presumably because the supporters have to travel distances to get there (Limerick has quite a small population to be depending on them to fill Thomond Park).

[Kingshu]

Personallly I like fridays, but 7.05 is to early, and if I wasn't living in Belfast it would be very difficult to make.

However I hold that in big cities, Dublin, Belfast, cardiff, Glasgow and Edinburgh most fans prefer fridays.

I also believe that Pro 12 teams shouldn't compete with their feeder clubs, so no games between 1-5 on saturdays, these teams feed the Pro regions, Provinces, city sides and we should complament each other not compete against each other, (given the odd h-cup game that can't be helped).
People want the old club kick off times, but you have to accept the pro 12 isn't made up of clubs, and instead have the evening times.

But agree for inter pro's if it was practical sat evenings would be maybe better.

[Kingshu]

Have to say it's a shame D'arcy is out injured.

I see this as a big year for D'arcy, he played a few games on the wing last year, and if he can get more game time there in the Pro 12, I see him as being a really imporant squad player.

He runs very good lines and is solid in defense and under highball, decent kicking as well and could make a very decent winger. (would maybe have him ahead of Allen if he was fit, but Allen has done well, and good to see him get game time too).

If can play on wing to a good standard, he could be a valueable bench option for bigger games (or if one of Gilroy, Bowe or Trimble is injuried), able to cover wing and fullback, and Panye can move to center, creating a lot of options to change games from the bench.

Plus with Bowe on Ireland duty, and Trimble and Gilroy either away as well, or at least in the extended training squads, having D'arcy play on the wings durning these times could be an extra asset.

This hopefully is the year D'arcy goes from second choice fullback, to Second choice fullback/wing cover, that in my opinion makes him a more important to the squad.

[thebandwagonsociety]

I think all interpros should be on a Saturday where there is a good chance of people travelling to the game. There won't be too many Munster fans in Ravenhill at the weekend which is a pity.

So do you think it won't be a sellout because it is on a Friday?

[Don Alfonso]

I agree with Sin - I think that having crowds of Munster fans, wandering around Belfast on a Saturday afternoon before the game, or out in Belfast on a Saturday night, would actually do actually raise the profile of the game a bit.

When good crowds of supporters, who are decent crack, descend on a city for a big sports match, there can be a real, palpable sense of exceitment around the city.

Whatever my feeling on football (especially in NI), when England played in NI a couple of years ago, the city centre was buzzing before the game.

[Kingshu]

I think all interpros should be on a Saturday where there is a good chance of people travelling to the game. There won't be too many Munster fans in Ravenhill at the weekend which is a pity.

So do you think it won't be a sellout because it is on a Friday?

it will still be a sell out, no one is arguing that, but on a sat a bigger portion of the crowd would be Munster fans.

Mind you is it better to have Ulster fans get tickets instead? thats a tricky one.

[Sin é]

I think all interpros should be on a Saturday where there is a good chance of people travelling to the game. There won't be too many Munster fans in Ravenhill at the weekend which is a pity.

So do you think it won't be a sellout because it is on a Friday?

Not too sure what the capacity is of Ravenhill with new develop etc., but if its 12,300, it was wasn't a sell-out last year - 11,379 is stated on the Rabo site. That would be one of Ulster's best attended league games of the season. They don't list what the attendance was for Leinster for last year (but it was similar to that for the year before).

Ulster are shortly going to have to fill a much larger stadium, so they might need to try some things to try and attract more people from outside Belfast.

[Sin é]

I think all interpros should be on a Saturday where there is a good chance of people travelling to the game. There won't be too many Munster fans in Ravenhill at the weekend which is a pity.

So do you think it won't be a sellout because it is on a Friday?

it will still be a sell out, no one is arguing that, but on a sat a bigger portion of the crowd would be Munster fans.

Mind you is it better to have Ulster fans get tickets instead? thats a tricky one.

The Ulster fans would all have to start committing to season tickets to ensure that they get their tickets to the big games

[Sin é]

I agree with Sin - I think that having crowds of Munster fans, wandering around Belfast on a Saturday afternoon before the game, or out in Belfast on a Saturday night, would actually do actually raise the profile of the game a bit.

When good crowds of supporters, who are decent crack, descend on a city for a big sports match, there can be a real, palpable sense of exceitment around the city.

Whatever my feeling on football (especially in NI), when England played in NI a couple of years ago, the city centre was buzzing before the game.

Absolutely agree with you about getting the city buzzing. I have absolutely no interest in American football, but Dublin was buzzing for a couple of days with all the yanks (and they spent a fortune!) and I'd have loved to have gone to the game to see what its all about. The fact that rugby takes over Limerick turns it into a 'must go to rugby match travel destination'.

[Don Alfonso]

Munster: Denis Hurley; Doug Howlett Capt., Casey Laulala, James Downey, Luke O’Dea; Ian Keatley, Duncan Williams; Dave Kilcoyne, Damien Varley, BJ Botha; Donncha O’Callaghan, Billy Holland; Dave O’Callaghan, Sean Dougall, James Coughlan. Replacements: Mike Sherry, Marcus Horan, Stephen Archer, Dave Foley, Tommy O’Donnell, Conor Murray, Ronan O’Gara, Keith Earls.

Munster A: Sean Scanlon; Ronan O’Mahony, Danny Barnes, JJ Hanrahan, Ivan Dineen; Scott Deasy, Peter Stringer; James Cronin, Sean Henry, Christy Condon; Philip Donnellan, Brian Hayes; Niall Ronan, Barry O’Mahony, Paddy Butler. Replacements: Duncan Casey, Kevin Griffin, Alan Cotter, Cathal O’Flaherty, Shane Buckley, Cathal Sheridan, Corey Hircock, Cian Bohane.

[Kingshu]

15) Jared Payne/Denis Hurley
14) Craig Gilroy/Doug Howlett
13) Darren Cave/Casey Laulala
12) Luke Marshall/James Downey
11) Andrew Trimble/Luke O’Dea
10) Paddy Jackson/Ian Keatley
9) Paul Marshall/Duncan Williams

1) Tom Court/ Kilcoyne
2) Rob Herring/Damien Varley
3) John Afoa/BJ Botha
4) Johann Muller/Donncha O’Callaghan
5) Lewis Stevenson/Billy Holland
6) Stephen Ferris/Dave O’Callaghan
7) Sean Doyle/Sean Dougall
8)Nick Williams/James Coughlan

If that Ulster teams is right, I have to say that I think the Ulster team looks stronger, and with home advantage Ulster would be favourites. Mind you Munster were favourites last year in H-cup game....

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