Do you think Murray feels challenged by Raonic?

by socal1976 Sat 06 Oct 2012, 7:56 am

First topic message reminder :

We have heard this line of reasoning about how there are no quality youngsters, how in two or three years all the fans will leave tennis, how the big 4 are not being challenged, and that furthermore there isn't much there after the top guys. Well I don't mean to pick on people but fundamentally I believe that all of these statements are wrong and mistake cause with effect. I believe Raonic at 21 at least 3-4 years away from his prime has a winning head to head against a current big 4 member at his absolute peak. The puncher scored a late round knockout over the counterpuncher winning it 7-6. Frankly, if the Missile wasn't 21 some odd years old the score wouldn't be so close but the result would stay the same. Milos played brilliant attack tennis with quite a few approaches to net.

For his part murray didn't play poorly he made some sparkling shots that did credit to all that talent that oozes from his slightly goofy looking visage. Still he couldn't stem the tide. I am calling my shot right now, BARRING SERIOUS INJURY ISSUES Milos will win more than one slam. As I have been saying people will see that on the modern tour players need more time to gain the proper seasoning for how fit, smart, strong, and consistent they have to be. These things don't favor the youngsters but at the same time it doesn't preclude them from raising up like Raonic is slowly doing when they have the ability. He is still very much a work in progess his returning is way too inconsistent a small but significant improvement in his returning will see him become untouchable by pretty much everyone on a fast court. The modern game is a return dominated game look at the players in the top 5 the best returners in the game. This is one part of the game that takes players a while to adjust to the ATP's big servers. It isn't like you are going to be able to play against the John Isners or Federer type serves in the juniors and futures that often.

I hate to be right this often but it is a curse. The fact remains there is plenty of young talent they just can't bomb their way to the top on big shots alone, eventually some will rise to the top and when they do they will be better all around players for it.

by socal1976 Mon 08 Oct 2012, 11:41 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:Lags, when did Socal say that Raonic is cloned Sampras?

Exactly, IMBL this is what drives me crazy. People ridicule me for positions I don't have, then I state that I never said what they claim I said and they still refuse to accept it. I was baffled that a poster as respectful as Lags would not simply say oops and move on, but she again doubled down on her mistaken belief. So I went back and reread the thread and none of my posts talk anything of Sampras/Cloning/ or Raonic. Then I happen to spot that Josiah was the person to mention this and not me.

by lydian Tue 09 Oct 2012, 8:24 am

My point about Raonic is that a few people across media have called him the 2nd Sampras when nothing could be further from the truth.

Do you have the measurement of Andreev's FH in RPM to make that statement? Ivor's FH is an ugly shot with a more extreme grip than Nadal's, he also truncates his follow through whereas Nadal uses the "wiper effect" at the end. Nadal's preparation is different too, with much greater wrist extension on take back and use of stretch shortening cycle.

Yes some players can get over 3000rpm at peak for their shots but not on average. Nadal is averaging 3300 rpm on every shot, peaking up to 5000 which no one gets near. I've studied a lot of FHs and coach this shot to juniors...I can say Nadal's FH is unique, some elements can be coached of course but a lot of what he does is unique to him...and a lot is driven by a high density of fast twitch fibres in his arms...something which is a rarity amongst athletes. The speed of the whip he gets is prodigious, the rpm created has nothing to do with power...he simply has the physiology and timing to do it. His unique follow through is simply needed because of the sheer racquet speed he's generating - a normal follow through wouldn't allow his shot to end properly without injury! He's had to create his own shot to accommodate the unique and rapid swing he has. People should recognise the talent of this shot because once he leaves the tour, IMO, this unique shot will leave with him.

by Josiah Maiestas Tue 09 Oct 2012, 9:01 am

Lydian takes things too seriously. We like to hype players up in tennis forums if you didn't already know!

by lags72 Tue 09 Oct 2012, 11:29 am

socal1976 wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:Lags, when did Socal say that Raonic is cloned Sampras?

Exactly, IMBL this is what drives me crazy. People ridicule me for positions I don't have, then I state that I never said what they claim I said and they still refuse to accept it. I was baffled that a poster as respectful as Lags would not simply say oops and move on, but she again doubled down on her mistaken belief. So I went back and reread the thread and none of my posts talk anything of Sampras/Cloning/ or Raonic. Then I happen to spot that Josiah was the person to mention this and not me.

socal - I have misquoted you in error by attributing words that you did not use.

I try to be meticulously careful whenever quoting a poster, but it's clear that, for whatever reason, I got things horribly wrong on this occasion with a case of mistaken identity egg

I therefore wish to offer you my unreserved apologies.

And my apology would have come sooner but for the fact that I had to log off the forum almost immediately after posting last night, and have only just now had chance to get back on-line.

(btw: not sure how my gender got mixed up. I guess it's of little consequence to 606, but purely for the record I can confirm that I am of the male species - or at least I was last time I checked ..... Wink

)

IMBL : since you too drew attention (rightly) to my mistake, I hope this clarifies things from your own perspective.

by Turron Tue 09 Oct 2012, 11:47 am

Socal's argument seems to be that youngsters in the future won't, on the average, be successful on the tour until much later in their careers than earlier generations. That's coupled with the fact that youth (teenagers) are simply absent from the top 400.

That doesn't worry Socal, but it does worry me. How will these players pay their way in the interregnum until they begin to taste success ... if they aren't in the top 400 then they aren't generating much revenue. If they aren't generating much revenue and their peers don't seem to be doing very well either, what will keep youngsters in the sport?

by lydian Tue 09 Oct 2012, 12:11 pm

by Josiah Maiestas Tue 09 Oct 2012, 12:40 pm

Clearly having the highest measuredforehand RPM in the history of the sport is merely "hyping" the guy up and has no relation to his success. You probably deem the 11 slams to be mere hype as well.

Wtf? I am talking about Raonic laughing

by User 774433 Tue 09 Oct 2012, 1:37 pm

lags72 wrote:
socal1976 wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:Lags, when did Socal say that Raonic is cloned Sampras?

Exactly, IMBL this is what drives me crazy. People ridicule me for positions I don't have, then I state that I never said what they claim I said and they still refuse to accept it. I was baffled that a poster as respectful as Lags would not simply say oops and move on, but she again doubled down on her mistaken belief. So I went back and reread the thread and none of my posts talk anything of Sampras/Cloning/ or Raonic. Then I happen to spot that Josiah was the person to mention this and not me.

socal - I have misquoted you in error by attributing words that you did not use.

I try to be meticulously careful whenever quoting a poster, but it's clear that, for whatever reason, I got things horribly wrong on this occasion with a case of mistaken identity

I therefore wish to offer you my unreserved apologies.

And my apology would have come sooner but for the fact that I had to log off the forum almost immediately after posting last night, and have only just now had chance to get back on-line.

(btw: not sure how my gender got mixed up. I guess it's of little consequence to 606, but purely for the record I can confirm that I am of the male species - or at least I was last time I checked ..... )

IMBL : since you too drew attention (rightly) to my mistake, I hope this clarifies things from your own perspective.

Lags you are an excellent poster thumbsup

by lags72 Tue 09 Oct 2012, 1:55 pm

Many thanks IMBL. Much appreciated.

by socal1976 Tue 09 Oct 2012, 5:04 pm

lags72 wrote:
socal1976 wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:Lags, when did Socal say that Raonic is cloned Sampras?

Exactly, IMBL this is what drives me crazy. People ridicule me for positions I don't have, then I state that I never said what they claim I said and they still refuse to accept it. I was baffled that a poster as respectful as Lags would not simply say oops and move on, but she again doubled down on her mistaken belief. So I went back and reread the thread and none of my posts talk anything of Sampras/Cloning/ or Raonic. Then I happen to spot that Josiah was the person to mention this and not me.

socal - I have misquoted you in error by attributing words that you did not use.

I try to be meticulously careful whenever quoting a poster, but it's clear that, for whatever reason, I got things horribly wrong on this occasion with a case of mistaken identity

I therefore wish to offer you my unreserved apologies.

Thank you lags you are a man of honor and respect. That is why your post confused me on this thread because I had no recollection of saying what was attributed to me. Unfortunately, I have had to get used to certain people as a matter of course misrepresenting me, however I wouldn't expect that from you and therefore I was a bit confused. Thanks again for acknowledging a mistake we all make them, me included.
And my apology would have come sooner but for the fact that I had to log off the forum almost immediately after posting last night, and have only just now had chance to get back on-line.

(btw: not sure how my gender got mixed up. I guess it's of little consequence to 606, but purely for the record I can confirm that I am of the male species - or at least I was last time I checked ..... )

IMBL : since you too drew attention (rightly) to my mistake, I hope this clarifies things from your own perspective.

by socal1976 Tue 09 Oct 2012, 5:33 pm

lydian wrote:My point about Raonic is that a few people across media have called him the 2nd Sampras when nothing could be further from the truth.

Do you have the measurement of Andreev's FH in RPM to make that statement? Ivor's FH is an ugly shot with a more extreme grip than Nadal's, he also truncates his follow through whereas Nadal uses the "wiper effect" at the end. Nadal's preparation is different too, with much greater wrist extension on take back and use of stretch shortening cycle.

Yes some players can get over 3000rpm at peak for their shots but not on average. Nadal is averaging 3300 rpm on every shot, peaking up to 5000 which no one gets near. I've studied a lot of FHs and coach this shot to juniors...I can say Nadal's FH is unique, some elements can be coached of course but a lot of what he does is unique to him...and a lot is driven by a high density of fast twitch fibres in his arms...something which is a rarity amongst athletes. The speed of the whip he gets is prodigious, the rpm created has nothing to do with power...he simply has the physiology and timing to do it. His unique follow through is simply needed because of the sheer racquet speed he's generating - a normal follow through wouldn't allow his shot to end properly without injury! He's had to create his own shot to accommodate the unique and rapid swing he has. People should recognise the talent of this shot because once he leaves the tour, IMO, this unique shot will leave with him.

Come on lydian Andreev had a great forehand. He beat Nadal on Clay once I believe and not when nadal was too young if I recall. I think you are overestimating the uniqueness of Nadal's shot. Of course no one is just going to photo copy Nadal's shot at the junior or college levels. But a great champion of fed or Nadal's calibre impacts the sport and the coaches as well. And I have just seen so many players emmulating what they can from that forehand. And maybe in a year or two some kid will come up and hit it just as big if not bigger. The game is moving in the big RPM direction right now and I think it is a natural progression. That lasso forehand may be unique at the quality of Nadal but he isn't the only guy hitting a version of it and having success with it. Not everyone has to hit 4000 rpms before it starts to seriously impact the game.

I agree Raonic is no Sampras in many ways Pete was a tennis freak. But you don't give him any credit for being one of the most aggressive S and V users on tour. He S and Vs a great deal, and his hands are good not great but a good with room for improvement. I don't get what makes a volley hit on the 4th or 5th or 6th ball any less enjoyable than one hit on the first. Especially off of some of these groundstrokes and passes we aren't just talking about all routine put aways.

by lydian Tue 09 Oct 2012, 7:58 pm

by Josiah Maiestas Tue 09 Oct 2012, 9:54 pm

That wasn't one of my 'taking the p*ss' moments actually I don't usually do it to you you're one of the better posters on here and I don't actually have an issue. I referred to you when you said Raonic is talked about as the new Sampras when he isn't quite as good, so I said we like to hype up these players. I thought I made it obvious I was agreeing with your 1st sentence.
Sad

by lydian Tue 09 Oct 2012, 9:59 pm

Ok JM, fair enough...I'll retract my comments.

Bubbly

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