Tigers vs Ospreys - HEC Round 2

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Tigers v Ospreys Sunday the 21st October 2012

Kick Off at 15:00
Welford Road

TICKET INFORMATION:- http://purchase.tickets.com/buy/TicketPurchase?agency=OSPREYS&organ_val=22376&schedule=list


Referee: Romain Poite (France)

Assistant referees: Cédric Marchat (France), Eric Soulan (France)

Television match official: Bernard Dal Maso (France)


Form
Statistics for Leicester Tigers vs Ospreys

Games played: 6 5.50%
Games won by Leicester Tigers: 3 50.00%
Games lost by Leicester Tigers: 2 33.33%
Games drawn: 1 16.67%
Most wins in a row for Leicester Tigers over Ospreys: 3
Most losses in a row for Leicester Tigers to Ospreys: 1
Largest points for Leicester Tigers: 32 32 - 32
Largest points against Leicester Tigers: 32 32 - 32
Largest winning margin for Leicester Tigers: 18 30 - 12
Largest losing margin for Leicester Tigers: 6 15 - 9
Total points for Leicester Tigers: 112
Total points against Leicester Tigers: 97
Average points for Leicester Tigers per game: 18.67
Average points against Leicester Tigers per game: 16.17
Average points difference per game between Leicester Tigers and Ospreys: 2.50

Leicester Tigers

15 Scott Hamilton 14 Niall Morris 13 Manusamoa Tuilagi 12 Anthony Allen 11 Vereniki Goneva 10 Toby Flood 9 Ben Youngs 1 Logovi'i Mulipola
2 Tom Youngs 3 Dan Cole 4 Graham Kitchener 5 Geoff Parling 6 Steve Mafi 7 Thomas Waldrom 8 Jordan Crane (c)

Replacements
16 George Chuter, 17 Marcos Ayerza, 18 Martin Castrogiovanni, 19 Louis Deacon, 20 Richard Thorpe, 21 Sam Harrison, 22 George Ford, 23 Matt Smith



Ospreys:

Richard Fussell; Hanno Dirksen, Andrew Bishop, Ashley Beck, Eli Walker; Dan Biggar, Kahn Fotuali'i; Ryan Bevington, Richard Hibbard, Adam Jones, Alun Wyn Jones (capt), Ian Evans, Ryan Jones, Jonathan Thomas, Justin Tipuric.
Replacements: Matthew Dwyer; Duncan Jones, Aaron Jarvis, George Stowers, Joe Bearman, Rhys Webb, Matthew Morgan, Tom Isaacs.

glamorganalun wrote:It was a shame Duncan did not start the game he more than held his own when he was on

AWJones is no captain, he just does not seem to let the ref know he is missing infringements or is inconsistent e.g. the ref yellow cards his prop but just warns the home team prop for the same multiple offence there were other examples of inconsistent in the reffing that in the end resulted in penalties because other players in the Ospreys making comments.

The interception finished the game as a contest, it was so telegraphed, unfortunately all flyhalves suffer the dreaded interception at some point just wish it was in a less important game.

Overall a very exciting game and well done to the Tigers, Flood had a very good game and deserved MOTM everything went his way today and he took his chances. On this form he is in a good position for the Lions if he can keep injury free.

I think this group is far from settled as I think the big 3 will win all the home games.

Yeah Flood has thrown a few intercept passes before, as you say i think everyone 10 does a couple! I believe it was B. Youngs who got the MOTM.

Well I did not see that coming at all.

After an uncomfortable 10-15 minutes (not helped by being surrounded by Os fans ) we started to play. For the next 55 minutes I felt we were quite clearly the better team (helped by home advantage). It was tight though. Worryingly tight.

Then we had the last 10 minutes. Sadly for the first time this season Tigers were playing towards the clunb house in the second half - so the tries were at the other end to me.

Am I the only one to notice the pass from Smith to Youngs for Youngs to score his try as being forward.... I said it was forward at the time, but now I home and being able to watch it back on Sky+ you can defintily see it forward, as Smith is behind the line passing he ball and Young takes it the other side of the line...

So Tigers shouldnt have got their BP

we're not going to have the whole "momentum" debate again are we?

Ospreys collapsed after the interception unfortunately for them, which allowed Leicester to pick up an unlikely BP. In such a tight group, a two-point swing (Os losing their BP, Tigers getting theirs) could be crucial.

Still fancy Toulouse to nick the group, but Leicester have put themselves right back into it.

I think you mean Mafi to Youngs. By the "new" interpretation it is not forward. The hands pass the ball backwards the momentum of the player takes it forward. (sorry Mad)

In my day that would be forward - but now it has been deemed ok.

Mad for chelsea why not have the momentum conversation?
Lets have it, especially is this case of a try being scored when short passes are been thrown.

Mafi is in front of Youngs.
He turns his body so he is looking diagonally backwards.
He throws it backwards (in relation to his forward velocity).
He is still in front of Youngs when Youngs catches it.

To a player/ref/camera running alongside the action it would look backwards - because when you take out the forward velocities of the players it is.

More relevant though - not sure Manu's offload in the run up to 4th try was backwards.

Hmm the offload may be back - as Mafi has to stretch back a long way to gather - but I am not sure.

Should have added, well done Tigers for the win. The Ospreys threw the towel in after Floods try...

Still shouldnt have had the BP though, the pass (Youngs try) WAS FORWARD, not the momentum cr@p...

MajorRoadWorks wrote:Should have added, well done Tigers for the win. The Ospreys threw the towel in after Floods try...

Still shouldnt have had the BP though, the pass (Youngs try) WAS FORWARD, not the momentum cr@p...

Sorry you are wrong - by the current interpretation as I outlined above step by step.

Even if you are right (and you have to show which of my points was wrong first) the speed of the play was such that it was marginal and would never be picked up by officials running their little socks off.

Ps just seen the post match interview with Youngs and Flood. after 80 minutes of high octane rugby they came across very well indeed. Unlike the muppet interviewing them.

What a great game to watch. Youngs and Flood were on fire, Dan Cole had a stormer while Tuilagi can also hold his head high, I hope these England boys stay fit and carry this form into the AI's. I feel a bit bad for the o's as the score is unfair of how close it was with Tipuric really standing out. That said the O's pack were being bossed in all phases bar the breakdown which gave youngs and flood too much space to exploit. Bar Goneva neither back three looked threatening at all and I feel Leicester can really kick on from this performance with the addition of Murphy, Benjamin, Thompsone and maybe even Tait to add flair out wide while the speed of croft and salvi will bring a different element to the breakdown. Bring on Toulouse at welford !

LondonTiger wrote:

MajorRoadWorks wrote:Should have added, well done Tigers for the win. The Ospreys threw the towel in after Floods try...

Still shouldnt have had the BP though, the pass (Youngs try) WAS FORWARD, not the momentum cr@p...

Sorry you are wrong - by the current interpretation as I outlined above step by step.

Even if you are right (and you have to show which of my points was wrong first) the speed of the play was such that it was marginal and would never be picked up by officials running their little socks off.

Actually LT the momentum interpretation has never been officially adopted (despite the Aussies' best efforts ). It dies explain why refs miss the odd forward pass, as those are harder to spot.

OK Pete,

Just from the way that TMOs have been judging what is forward during the trial - ie looking at the position of the pass in relation to the passer - it seems that it has been.

Either way I remember, back when I coached and reffed, being shown a film of the same incident:

Once from a moving camera
Once from a static camera
Once from a static camera with a line superimposed.

In the first the pass looks comfortably backwards
Second touch and go
3rd forward.

The law book has been changed with relation to forward passes. The old hard copy I have from the 90s talks about the ball travelling forward towards the opposition line - the current laws talk about the ball being thrown forward. The old way is objective but hard to enforce (I remember that the AIs in 2010 >50% of tries had passes that should have been deemed forward under this rule) the latter is subjective but easier to police.

maestegmafia wrote:Looks like a good performance went bad.

Only positive is that we are still ahead of Tigers in the pool on points difference. Could be a very tight group if OS can do well against Toulouse we may stand a chance. But they are a very good team.

Technically no Ospreys are not, they have however scored one more try than Leicester which is why they're 2nd in the group - they have the same points. And lest we forget, Ospreys have already played Treviso, Leicester havent, epect the 'points' difference to be significantly in Tigers' favour come the end of round 4.

Jimpy wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Looks like a good performance went bad.

Only positive is that we are still ahead of Tigers in the pool on points difference. Could be a very tight group if OS can do well against Toulouse we may stand a chance. But they are a very good team.

Technically no Ospreys are not, they have however scored one more try than Leicester which is why they're 2nd in the group - they have the same points. And lest we forget, Ospreys have already played Treviso, Leicester havent, epect the 'points' difference to be significantly in Tigers' favour come the end of round 4.

I think that's all irrelevant come the end of the group though as it will then come down to the head to head if we are still on the same points. Match points in the head to head, then tries scored then points difference. So if we are on level points the Osprey's will now need to get a bonus point win against us and deny us both a try and losing bonus point and will need to score at least 3 more tries than us to finish above us in the group. In the event that they only score 3 more tries they will need to win by more than 17 points. So unless we slip up somewhere, or they blow Toulouse away it could be difficult for them... not impossible though, as demonstrated by the turnaround between our home win against Ulster and away defeat last year.

The IRB released a video on the forward pass through their Total Rugby internet channel. It isn't too difficult to find, see this.

Big wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Looks like a good performance went bad.

Only positive is that we are still ahead of Tigers in the pool on points difference. Could be a very tight group if OS can do well against Toulouse we may stand a chance. But they are a very good team.

Technically no Ospreys are not, they have however scored one more try than Leicester which is why they're 2nd in the group - they have the same points. And lest we forget, Ospreys have already played Treviso, Leicester havent, epect the 'points' difference to be significantly in Tigers' favour come the end of round 4.

I think that's all irrelevant come the end of the group though as it will then come down to the head to head if we are still on the same points. Match points in the head to head, then tries scored then points difference. So if we are on level points the Osprey's will now need to get a bonus point win against us and deny us both a try and losing bonus point and will need to score at least 3 more tries than us to finish above us in the group. In the event that they only score 3 more tries they will need to win by more than 17 points. So unless we slip up somewhere, or they blow Toulouse away it could be difficult for them... not impossible though, as demonstrated by the turnaround between our home win against Ulster and away defeat last year.

The IRB released a video on the forward pass through their Total Rugby internet channel. It isn't too difficult to find, see this.

Re: the bit in bold, that's key. Which means it really does come down to which of Os and Tigers score more points in their remaining fixtures!

Tigers: Treviso (H & A), Ospreys (A), Toulouse (H) - I think 15 points should be achievable but will be tough (maybe 14 more likely assuming we can beat Toulouse at home).
Ospreys: Toulouse (H & A), Tigers (H), Treviso (A) - would do well to get 3 wins out of that and I can see at most one of them being a 5 pointer so 14 points absolute max, more likely 13 or fewer.

All of this is assuming Tigers & Os don't top the group, of course - which is probably a fair assumption, but you never know - could be a three-way affair with all losing two away games and therefore coming down to BPs.

I think that looking at the Round 5 and 6 fixtures, I'd have to say Tigers are in the driving seat in their group - well they will be if they can recreate the form they showed yesterday (bar the first 10 minutes anyway) consistently.

Tigers need to get minimum 9pts, preferably 10 from the two Treviso fixtures.

the best case scenario for us is if we get 10pts and Ospreys/Toulouse share a win apiece with no BPs.

that would give:

Tigers 15
Toulouse 12
Ospreys 9

Going in to the last two rounds.

LondonTiger wrote:Tigers need to get minimum 9pts, preferably 10 from the two Treviso fixtures.

the best case scenario for us is if we get 10pts and Ospreys/Toulouse share a win apiece with no BPs.

that would give:

Tigers 15
Toulouse 12
Ospreys 9

Going in to the last two rounds.

I'm not sure about that. I don't think it will happen, but I'd have thought the best case scenario is Toulouse winning both games with no BPs. That would effectively knock the Ospreys out before we have to play them, and perhaps make our final game against them much much easier. Yes, it would put Toulouse ahead of us, but with us having a home game against them and Ospreys having nothing to play for in the final game I'd be a lot more confident of getting through - either as group winners or best runners up.

I would also have to agree is that Tigers best chance is for Toulouse and Ospreys to take as many points of of each other as possible.

Last season any Tigers' chances of HEC success were effectively ended by their failure to gain a TBP in Italy (Aironi). The reality as I see it after failing to secure anything at Toulouse, the ball is clearly in Les Toulousains' court.

The minimum requirement as I see it in this group is to secure ten points from Treviso for any team. Those that can achieve that can then discount the odd other bonus point loss.

greytiger wrote:Last season any Tigers' chances of HEC success were effectively ended by their failure to gain a TBP in Italy (Aironi). The reality as I see it after failing to secure anything at Toulouse, the ball is clearly in Les Toulousains' court.

The minimum requirement as I see it in this group is to secure ten points from Treviso for any team. Those that can achieve that can then discount the odd other bonus point loss.

But Toulouse have also failed to achieve similar by not getting a TBP against Treviso - are their chances of HEC success not effectively ended too..

I actually think Tigers will huff and puff through their remaining matches but not do enough to top the group on merit. They could realistically get a runners up spot, but it remains to be seen iftheir points tally will be enough to qualify as a runner up. Even then, they'll probably end up away to Clermont and get walloped.

In the scenario I outlined earlier - a win against Toulouse at WR would probably then mean topping the group - due to bonus points garnered. In a tight group where 3 teams coul dall end up on 4 wins, bonus points are vital.

If we ignore the absolute hammering at Ravenhill - in the end we came third because we lost the head-to-heads and garnered less BPs in total.

We got 1 TBP from the home game against Aironi.

Ulster and ASM both got 2.

We got no BPs against ASM or Ulster, while Ulster got a TBP against us and ASM got an LBP at WR.

The whole pool rests on the Toulouse vs Ospreys games, whoever comes out of those with two wins will be in the top two.

I don't fancy our chances.

We may have been equal to Leicester for 75% of the match on sunday but we carelessly conceded three soft tries.

Toulouse are the best team in this group and should murder us away and beat us at home.

Jimpy wrote:

greytiger wrote:Last season any Tigers' chances of HEC success were effectively ended by their failure to gain a TBP in Italy (Aironi). The reality as I see it after failing to secure anything at Toulouse, the ball is clearly in Les Toulousains' court.

The minimum requirement as I see it in this group is to secure ten points from Treviso for any team. Those that can achieve that can then discount the odd other bonus point loss.

But Toulouse have also failed to achieve similar by not getting a TBP against Treviso - are their chances of HEC success not effectively ended too..

I actually think Tigers will huff and puff through their remaining matches but not do enough to top the group on merit. They could realistically get a runners up spot, but it remains to be seen iftheir points tally will be enough to qualify as a runner up. Even then, they'll probably end up away to Clermont and get walloped.

I agree with that. It's one of the reasons I almost think it's best for us if Toulouse thump Ospreys. If our second place is pretty much in the bag we will hopefully get an easier fixture away to Ospreys and a better chance of the runners up spot. Though even as I type I wondering if a shot at the Amlin may suit us better. Still, there's a long way to go and nothing is in the bag for anyone yet, I think I'm going to stop speculating about rounds 5 and 6 until rounds 3 and 4 have been concluded - Ospreys could yet spank Toulouse and top the group and Treviso may just beat us...

Treviso were leading Toulouse 18-9 at ht - so nothing is certain.

LondonTiger wrote:Treviso were leading Toulouse 18-9 at ht - so nothing is certain.

Good news for everyone in the pool.

Big

Amlin may suit us better.

Whatever use is the Amlin to the Tigers?

Nothiing.

Qualification to next year's HEC is pretty assurable through the normal channels - especially without other distractions.

Personally I'd much rather win the Jeff than the Amlin.

If we get knocked out before 1/4 finals we drop to a tier 3 seed as we lose the points from the 2009 final. We need as many ranking points as possible.

Technically Ospreys could drop to being 4th seeds - so we could have a group that was Leinster, Toulon, Leicester, Ospreys

I fear for us (ospreys), as when we play Toulouse we would only had access to our players for about 4 days, whereas Toulouse would have had their players for nearly a fortnight due to the extra Welsh International outside of the IRB window, practically every Osprey player in the Welsh squad will be playing against Australia unless some miracle occurs and some deal to hold onto some of the French exiles can be found, I can see us taking a hiding out in France but who knows what will happen the following week.

wayne wrote:I fear for us (ospreys), as when we play Toulouse we would only had access to our players for about 4 days, whereas Toulouse would have had their players for nearly a fortnight due to the extra Welsh International outside of the IRB window, practically every Osprey player in the Welsh squad will be playing against Australia unless some miracle occurs and some deal to hold onto some of the French exiles can be found, I can see us taking a hiding out in France but who knows what will happen the following week.

Thats exactly the same for Leicester, England play the All Blacks the same day as Wales play the Ozzies. In fact looking at the quality of the ALl Blacks, plus the amount of Leicester players in the England EPS then they are likely to be much worse off than the Ospreys.

On the bright side...if Australia are beaten there is a bounce in the step of Osprey players, who might have also benefitted from the more refreshing renowned training envronment in Poland?

Some positives might replace the negatives

Thats exactly the same for Leicester, England play the All Blacks the same day as Wales play the Ozzies. In fact looking at the quality of the ALl Blacks, plus the amount of Leicester players in the England EPS then they are likely to be much worse off than the Ospreys.

England have an annoying habit of damaging Tigers players. I'd expect at least one injury to a key player following the AIs. We'll be losing Castro, Mafi, Ayerza, Goneva and Mulipola on top of the normal England crew to call ups as well.

SecretFly wrote:On the bright side...if Australia are beaten there is a bounce in the step of Osprey players, who might have also benefitted from the more refreshing renowned training envronment in Poland?

Some positives might replace the negatives

True and if the All Blacks stumble at HQ Leicester could be in magnificent form.

Injuries permitting

I agree with most of what is expressed here, there is only the points that the Ospreys are playing Toulouse away and I believe Leicester are at home to Treviso if wrong I apologise, and as was highlighted on another thread their strength in depth is far superior, are the foreign players playing outside of the IRB window, I would doubt it very much as the PRL wouldn't allow it, unless suitable recompense would be negotiated and I don't think they would have that sort of money.

I think the Tigers/Ospreys teams are pretty even. What nobody has noted is it's likely nobody else will get 5 points Vs the Ospreys. Leicester have put themselves in a fantastic position. Toulouse still look like group winners, but they aren't that impressive are they? As I predicted on my thread months ago I think this year is strictly a french affair!

Toulouse still look like group winners, but they aren't that impressive are they?

I think McAllister is actually a liability, he's a centre at 10 and so often stands too deep to release the backs outside him his first option is always to try and unleash that cannon of a boot. Subdue the Tolouse forward ball carriers and everything grinds to a halt.

True and if the All Blacks stumble at HQ Leicester could be in magnificent form.

If England beat the ABs then Flood and Youngs will be in top form. If that's the case then the moons have aligned and we'll be off setting more record TBP victories. When those two are in top form and playing together they are nigh on unstoppable.

maestegmafia wrote:

wayne wrote:I fear for us (ospreys), as when we play Toulouse we would only had access to our players for about 4 days, whereas Toulouse would have had their players for nearly a fortnight due to the extra Welsh International outside of the IRB window, practically every Osprey player in the Welsh squad will be playing against Australia unless some miracle occurs and some deal to hold onto some of the French exiles can be found, I can see us taking a hiding out in France but who knows what will happen the following week.

Thats exactly the same for Leicester, England play the All Blacks the same day as Wales play the Ozzies. In fact looking at the quality of the ALl Blacks, plus the amount of Leicester players in the England EPS then they are likely to be much worse off than the Ospreys.

Yes, but Leicester are at home to Treviso, not away in Toulouse, it makes a lot of difference.

we will have to play better against Treviso than we did against Aironi last season. The first half at WR in Jan was the worst 40minutes of rugby I have ever witnessed.

However assuming no injuries the following team could be selected with a decent amount of preparation time as only england players have international duties the weekend before:

Ayerza, Chuter, Castro, Kitchener, Deacon, Mafi/Croft, Crane, Salvi
Young, Ford, Thompstone, Allen (*), Smith, Goneva, Murphy

(*) Assuming he is not in Englands 23 - Lancaster tends to release pl;ayers back to their clubs. Youngs may also be available.

Morgannwg wrote:I think the Tigers/Ospreys teams are pretty even. What nobody has noted is it's likely nobody else will get 5 points Vs the Ospreys. Leicester have put themselves in a fantastic position. Toulouse still look like group winners, but they aren't that impressive are they? As I predicted on my thread months ago I think this year is strictly a french affair!

Why Toulouse look likely to be group winners, they like the other two teams have won their home games and beaten the weakest team away without a winning bonus point. I think the Tigers have the edge with a bonus point home win against one of the big three. The Ospreys have a home bonus point against Treviso which is not easy for the others to get. I think the big three will win all their home games the difference will be down to bonus points Toulouse have no winning bonus points to date. This group has still to be decided.

LT

we will have to play better against Treviso than we did against Aironi last season.

To be fair, that result was on the back of the RWC with Tigers struggling even more with injuries than at present,

Whilst Treviso are a mildly better outfit than Aironi, the ten points back-to-back simply has to be Cocker's priority.
Without those two BPs, any chance of advancement from the pool becomes even more of a lottery.