Potential England XV for autumn:

Anybody else feel slightly uncomfortable with this xv which lancaster could pick for the forthcoming autumn internationals.


15. D Armitage (england)
14. C Ashton(england)
13. M Tuilagi (samoa)
12. B Barritt (south africa)
11. B foden (england)
10. T Flood (england)
9. B youngs (england)
8. E joubert (south africa)
7. S armitage (england)
6. b vunipola (new zealand)
5. G parlng (england)
4. M botha (south africa)
3. D cole (england)
2. D hartley (new zealand)
1. M vunipola (new zealand)

England nationals: 8
New zealand:3
South Africa:3
Samoa: 1

No, I'd be fine with it as long as no rules are broken. Yourself?

Incidentally you could also add the Armitages if you wanted.

I would class the Armitage brothers as English. If you asked them what nationality they are they'd say English, not French. For the rest, playing for England is more of a career choice, rather than an emotional one, which I don't think is right.

If I was you scrumdown I would put those stones down if your going to play in glass houses.

Scrumdown, what nationality are you?

I assume from your article that you are 'proud' to come from a nation that is ethnically pure and all sportspeople representing that nation can trace their bloodline back centuries.

I'd be interested to hear about this place. It doesn't sound like anywhere I've been recently.

Avalon wrote:Scrumdown, what nationality are you?

I assume from your article that you are 'proud' to come from a nation that is ethnically pure and all sportspeople representing that nation can trace their bloodline back centuries.

I'd be interested to hear about this place. It doesn't sound like anywhere I've been recently.

Tuilagi would have grown up supporting samoa.
Vunipolas would have supported Tonga.
Barrit, Botha, joubert would have deamt of playing for south africa.
Similarly, Hartley, new zealand.

If you asked these players what nationality they are, they wouldn't say English!

Scrumdown, and your nationality is?

Avalon wrote:Scrumdown, and your nationality is?

I could play for England.

Given that you're talking about being 'slightly uncomfortable' about national representation it would be good to know where you're coming from and what we're dealing with here.

People with views such as you hold surely aren't afraid to shout your allegiance from the rooftops.

We don't want you!

Tuilagi went to school here from age 12,hartley came over at 16 to learn his trade,barrits mum is English and he spent holidays here.They all look proud to play for England,having said that I would prefer not to have botha and waldrom.

No 7&1/2 wrote:We don't want you!

Indeed If he feels 'uncomfortable' with slightly exotic names and people who don't look like him I don't think he'll be able to cope very well with the modern world.

Scrumdown is welsh so like to claim the moral high ground over non nationals playing for a country

This is obviously an attempt at a WUM bourne out of frustrations from the weekend, but nonetheless here's my tuppence worth...

I don't know why you've put Joubert in there, there's been no suggestion that he is anywhere near selection. That players are eligible has little bearing on the likelihood. There are a number of foreign players who are eligible for Wales, Ireland & Scotland that are no nearer selection than Joubert.

Of the rest you highlight, Hartley & Barritt have English parents, the Vunipolas have been here since they were 7 & 5, and Tuilagi & Hartley came here in their early teens, so no, I'm no more uncomfortable that they could represent England than I am that Faletau, Cuthbert & North represent Wales.

The only player I'm uncomfortable about is Botha (who personally I wouldn't even select on ability), and to be fair to him he's been here for a decade and more than payed his dues playing up from National Three North.

Avalon wrote:Given that you're talking about being 'slightly uncomfortable' about national representation it would be good to know where you're coming from and what we're dealing with here.

People with views such as you hold surely aren't afraid to shout your allegiance from the rooftops.

I am 'slightly uncomfortable' with the concept of South Africa v England with South Africans also playing for England, when in reality they'd prefer to be playing for the opposition.

hawalsh wrote:This is obviously an attempt at a WUM bourne out of frustrations from the weekend

Ah, yes. I've just seen Knackeredknees comment too.

Time to stop giving him the satisfaction of a reply.

PS Scrum down...the Vunipolas were born in NZ...so not Tongan.

Hartleys English mother would be extremely happy that hes representing England...since he has been here since he was 16...

Aw in fact you know what....cant be a***d....you Muppet!

hawalsh wrote:This is obviously an attempt at a WUM bourne out of frustrations from the weekend, but nonetheless here's my tuppence worth...

I don't know why you've put Joubert in there, there's been no suggestion that he is anywhere near selection. That players are eligible has little bearing on the likelihood. There are a number of foreign players who are eligible for Wales, Ireland & Scotland that are no nearer selection than Joubert.

Of the rest you highlight, Hartley & Barritt have English parents, the Vunipolas have been here since they were 7 & 5, and Tuilagi & Hartley came here in their early teens, so no, I'm no more uncomfortable that they could represent England than I am that Faletau, Cuthbert & North represent Wales.

The only player I'm uncomfortable about is Botha (who personally I wouldn't even select on ability), and to be fair to him he's been here for a decade and more than payed his dues playing up from National Three North.

+Alot...perfect responce....

GeordieFalcon wrote:

hawalsh wrote:This is obviously an attempt at a WUM bourne out of frustrations from the weekend, but nonetheless here's my tuppence worth...

I don't know why you've put Joubert in there, there's been no suggestion that he is anywhere near selection. That players are eligible has little bearing on the likelihood. There are a number of foreign players who are eligible for Wales, Ireland & Scotland that are no nearer selection than Joubert.

Of the rest you highlight, Hartley & Barritt have English parents, the Vunipolas have been here since they were 7 & 5, and Tuilagi & Hartley came here in their early teens, so no, I'm no more uncomfortable that they could represent England than I am that Faletau, Cuthbert & North represent Wales.

The only player I'm uncomfortable about is Botha (who personally I wouldn't even select on ability), and to be fair to him he's been here for a decade and more than payed his dues playing up from National Three North.

+Alot...perfect responce....

Response....'you muppet'.

.

Sigh

As far as wums go, 0 out of 10 for originality.

2 out of 10 for plausibility

1 out of 10 for feeble following up.

All in all an amateur effort that even the USA Cricket Association (currently the worlds most incompetent sports governing body) would disown.

Fail.

Avalon wrote:Scrumdown, what nationality are you?

I assume from your article that you are 'proud' to come from a nation that is ethnically pu

re and all sportspeople representing that nation can trace their bloodline back centuries.

I'd be interested to hear about this place. It doesn't sound like anywhere I've been recently.

I heard about some bloke in 1930s who was looking for a house in a place like that!

I'd also be amazed if Billy V and Joubert play at all.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:All in all an amateur effort that even the USA Cricket Association (currently the worlds most incompetent sports governing body) would disown.

Worse than UCI?

I thought UCI were corrupt rather than incompetent

ChequeredJersey wrote:I thought UCI were corrupt rather than incompetent

More than a little of both really. Make even the RFU and Squeaky Andrew look good.

dummy_half wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:I thought UCI were corrupt rather than incompetent

More than a little of both really. Make even the RFU and Squeaky Andrew look good.

Steady on....

Geez I'd be more uncomfortable with the personnel rather than their nationality. What imagination did that team come from?

The EDL handbook?

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:Sigh

As far as wums go, 0 out of 10 for originality.

2 out of 10 for plausibility

1 out of 10 for feeble following up.

All in all an amateur effort that even the USA Cricket Association (currently the worlds most incompetent sports governing body) would disown.

Fail.

Im not surprised by your response. As a new zealender, no doubt you support the current international rugby eligibility rules which allow wealthier rugby unions such as the rfu and nzru to exploit the extraordinary rugby talent produced by the pacific island nations.

What a load of b0110x.every country bar none take advantage of the rules.

sickofwendy wrote:What a load of b0110x.every country bar none take advantage of the rules.

It is the wealthier nations that benefit the most. What is unacceptable is the nzru refusal to tour the pacific island nations. No doubt this is out of self interest as a tour would generate cash for the pacific unions which would mean that they are able to keep hold of some of their best players.

Why don't you try and contribute something useful and original to the forum, rather than some feeble attempt to antagonise others. Go home and start again.

Scrumdown wrote:

sickofwendy wrote:What a load of b0110x.every country bar none take advantage of the rules.

It is the wealthier nations that benefit the most. What is unacceptable is the nzru refusal to tour the pacific island nations. No doubt this is out of self interest as a tour would generate cash for the pacific unions which would mean that they are able to keep hold of some of their best players.

Have to agree with that,I would love to see England touring the islands.don't think we have since '91

All blacks have NEVER played official test matches in Tonga, Samoa or Fiji. Incredidible given their proximity.

Scotland earned a lot respect when they toured there last summer as they had nothing really to gain from the tour and would have made a financial loss.

Money talks not only in club rugby but also in international rugby. One look at the dubious make of international rugby reams will tell you that.

hawalsh wrote:
The only player I'm uncomfortable about is Botha (who personally I wouldn't even select on ability), and to be fair to him he's been here for a decade and more than payed his dues playing up from National Three North.

This goes back to what it means to play for England. Botha wasn't born here, but so what - it's not like you have any choice over where you are born. Botha chose to come here, chose to give up his previous life and embrace a new one, not because he thought he could play for the national side but because he wanted to make this his home. Frankly he wasn't a very good player when he arrived, but he worked hard, the English game improved him and eventually he reaped what he sowed. I believe he has an English wife, I wouldn't be surprised if he had kids, and I bet if you gave him the choice between playing for England or SA he would pick the former.

I have no problem with Botha playing for England. What I don't like is established rugby players living here a couple of years and then trying to play international rugby for us. So I do have a problem with Waldrom (even though he qualified on the spurious 'granny' rule in the end) and I wouldn't want to see Joubert playing for us. People who've lived here for a significant portion of their lives, I think they have every right to represent England.

DaveM

Reasonable point re Botha and his allegiances. I don't want him in the side, but mainly because I don't think he's the best available player in his position.

Like you, my bigger gripe on eligibility is those established players who move for a professional contract and then qualify through residency. Botha isn't one of these (not sure whether Fourie was or not - again, I thought he came over for other reasons and started playing recreational rugby as an amateur).

Scrumdown wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:Sigh

As far as wums go, 0 out of 10 for originality.

2 out of 10 for plausibility

1 out of 10 for feeble following up.

All in all an amateur effort that even the USA Cricket Association (currently the worlds most incompetent sports governing body) would disown.

Fail.

Im not surprised by your response. As a new zealender, no doubt you support the current international rugby eligibility rules which allow wealthier rugby unions such as the rfu and nzru to exploit the extraordinary rugby talent produced by the pacific island nations.

Mmmm, quite the opposite for NZ actually.....

"At the last World Cup I think the majority of the Samoan team, for example, was born in New Zealand. Of the 30 players in the Samoa squad for last year's World Cup, 17 were born in New Zealand. The numbers argument, however, is usually lost on people who prefer to view things differently, particularly some from the Northern Hemisphere....."

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10842367

ebop

You should realise that most WUMs won't let inconvenient things like facts get in the way of a good argument.

Also, worth noting how many English-born players have represented the other home nations.

dummy_half wrote:ebop

You should realise that most WUMs won't let inconvenient things like facts get in the way of a good argument.

Also, worth noting how many English-born players have represented the other home nations.

The article in the NZ herald actually backs up the argument that the current eligibility rules benefit the wealthier rugby unions.

The fact is that the NZRU is able to cherry pick the best talent from the pacific islands and then in return nations such as samoa are left with samoan and new zealand born players who are not good enough for the all blacks.

This migration of talent from the islands to new zealand is aided by the fact that super rugby contracts are only offered to those who are willing to commit to the all blacks.

Can you imagine the reaction if the top french clubs employed similar tactics when recruiting georgian/romanian props.

Which particular players are you concerned the Kiwis are importing? How would you change the rules to stop it?

scrumdown

Name names - which current or recent All Blacks of PI ancestry moved to New Zealand for professional rugby contracts?

By comparison, how many moved as children and attended school in NZ?

Oh and Scrum Down....

Please keep the likes of Hape, Waldrom, Vainikolo and Henry Paul ....the home fans DONT want them anyway yet we keep getting dumped with them!

Flutey was pretty popular until he got crocked on the lions tour

He was popular with a portion of fans...not all of them...

dummy_half wrote:scrumdown

Name names - which current or recent All Blacks of PI ancestry moved to New Zealand for professional rugby contracts?

By comparison, how many moved as children and attended school in NZ?

This list is endless... a few names for you:

Sitiveni Sivivatu and Sione Lauaki played for the pacific island team against the all blacks in 2004.

Others such as Chris Masoe, Casey Laulala, Isaia toeava were poached in their teens and offered lucrative scholarships.

Sitiveni Sivivatu and Sione Lauaki played for the pacific island team against the all blacks in 2004.

Well Scrum Down...there in lies the same problem the same as Northern Fans see with the 3 year rule. We hate it!!

It SHouldnt be allowed. If you have played for one international team you cant change...including crossing codes.

Many have done it i will agree with you...Bunce, Tuigamala etc.

But isnt there a rule that if someone of Polynesian background has represented NZ once or twice then not picked again they can go and play for the team of their ancestry...

The thing is you cant blame NZ or England for having these players in their teams. The rules allow it...it is the IRB that is the issue. They need to overhaul all these rules...

For rugby, I think it would be far better if the eligibility rules were changed so that a player can only play for either:

1. Country of birth
2. Country of parents birth

If these rules applied then Jerry collins, rodney soiaolo, chris masoe, mils muliani, manu tuilagi, jerome kaino, laulala, and many others would only qualify for samoa.

Similarly, rokococo, sivivatu would play for fiji. There are many others.

The pacific island teams, supported by the NZRU are pushing for the eligibility rules to be changed so that pacific island players can play for both the all blacks and the team of their ancestry.

However these rule changes would strenghten the hand of the nzru even further as it would encourage even those less talented pacific island players to try their hand at becoming an all black first, knowing that an international career for the country of their ancestors still beckons. Luckily, the northen hemisphere unions rejected the propsal.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:Sigh



All in all an amateur effort that even the USA Cricket Association (currently the worlds most incompetent sports governing body) would disown.

Fail.

now this surely is a WUM, because, clearly the world leader when it comes to incompetence and corruption in sports administration is the SA cricket board....oh wait I forgot about Athletics SA.....

Hows this for an English capped team still playing !

15. Iain Balshaw
14. Paul Sackey
13. Jamie Noon
12. Ayoola Erinle
11. Phil Christophers
10. Andy Goode
9. Shaun Perry
8. Chris Jones
7. Hendre Fourie
6. Magnus Lund
5. Roy winters
4. Dean Schofield
3. Jason Hobson
2. G. Chuter
1. Tim payne