England wings for the AI's

Ashton seems pretty much nailed on. But who else? Is it too soon for Wade? Do we bring Monye back?
Who do you think should be given the 11 jersey?

Wouldn't be surprised if if Tuilagi got tried there.

Not to mention Foden injured

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wouldn't be surprised if if Tuilagi got tried there.

Top player, but should he be played out of position? I'm not sure it's a good plan. Would prefer an out and out winger myself.

Think Lancaster will be tempted to try it though I agree I would prefer players who are actually used to the positions. If it's Barritt and Tuilagi in the centres I'm not sure it matters that much who's there judging from the past few games.

Who is there?

Ashton
Monye
Wade
May
Joseph (On the wing?)
Thompstone
Benjamin (Is he injured?)
Strettle
JSD
Varndell
Yarde
Ojo
Banahan
Sharples

Any ive missed?

The current EPS backs are:

A Allen (Leicester), C Ashton (Saracens), B Barritt (Saracens), M Brown (Harlequins), D Care (Harlequins), L Dickson (Northampton), O Farrell (Saracens), T Flood (Leicester), B Foden (Northampton), A Goode (Saracens), J Joseph (London Irish), C Sharples (Gloucester), M Tuilagi (Leicester), J Turner-Hall (Harlequins), B Youngs (Leicester)

Of those, aside from Ashton, only Sharples is a dedicated winger, Foden who has been playing there will still be injured, and Joseph is the only other player that has played wing with relative recent regularity.

Sharples isn't in the same sort of form he was last season and can't see him being selected unless he comes back very strong in the next few weeks. Joseph is a possibility and one I highly rate, but personally I'd prefer to see him on the bench coming on at centre and give the 11 shirt to a player that is more likely to consistently appear there for us.

That would direct us down to the Saxons, where if Lancaster is only going to replace injured EPS players, only one player would currently be coming up, replacing Foden.

The current Saxons backs are:

N Abendanon (Bath), M Benjamin (Leicester), T Biggs (Bath), F Burns (Gloucester), G Ford (Leicester), G Lowe (Harlequins), J May (Gloucester), R Miller (Sale Sharks), U Monye (Harlequins), J Simpson (Wasps), D Strettle (Saracens), B Twelvetrees (Gloucester), C Wade (Wasps), R Wigglesworth (Saracens)

I think Lancaster might go for Monye. I wouldn't be upset with Wade's selection, though I do think he's still a shade off being able to make the best of his debut. Personally, as long as he comes back well from his short injury over the next few weeks, I'd go for May, with the added benefit that he covers FB, meaning we don't need to select one of the FBs (who only cover FB) on the bench.

Tuilagi is perfect for England on the wing. He's a try scorer.

Biggs is in decent form isnt he...

I've said it before and i'll say it again. Nick Abendanon is the man for the wing spot, a pretty much like for like replacement for Foden and better defensively than Sharples.

As Sharples is in the EPS he should start but i'd back Abendanon for the Fiji game.

I have always enjoyed watching James Simpson Daniel play. Similar in style to leigh halfpenny. A natural footballer whose talent would have been appreciated and allowed to flourish in a country such as Wales.

JSD has said he'd turn an England call down anyway.

Simpson Daniel was selected for England squads numerous times and apart from his 10 caps ended up getting injured almost every time, it was like a curse. A career seriously set back by a long trail of injuries, not to mention having to compete for places with the likes of Robinson & Lewsey.

Kyle eastmond.get him involved now,he will have a bigger impact than Jason Robinson.

Sharples/Wade Biggs/Monye Abendanon/May in the AP:

Matches 2/6 6/5 6/4
Tries 0/3 1/4 1/0
Try Assists 0/1 2/0 1/0
Passes 5/25 1/16 21/16
Carries 13/43 19/53 51/25
Metres 27/474 167/270 447/146
Clean Breaks 0/12 4/6 6/0
Offloads 1/19 0/8 3/1
Defenders Beaten 2/11 6/3 9/6
Tackles 3/24 15/20 21/12
Missed Tackles 0/4 7/5 5/2

Abendanon is worth a look, but I'd give Tuilagi the 11 shirt, as much of his good work yesterday was in wide channels. With Barritt very likely to start at 12 it would be good to have a more elusive runner with better passing skills at OC e.g. JJ.

For a player that is meant to be a defensive liability, Wade has the best tackle stats of that group (Biggs by comparison missed 1 in 3 tackles).

He tops pretty much every category in those stats, a fair few notably more than the rest. I say get him involved and let the coaches iron out any issues.

Abendanon is a bloody full back and shouldn't be considered a winger, neither should ben foden. Tuilagi is an outside centre and is our best one in a decade don't move him. Why do people always want to move world class players out of position.

sirtidychris wrote:Abendanon is a bloody full back and shouldn't be considered a winger, neither should ben foden. Tuilagi is an outside centre and is our best one in a decade don't move him. Why do people always want to move world class players out of position.

Tuilagi is being played at outside centre but he plays that position as a winger. He has great pace, strength and great finishing skills. Centres have to be able to pass and create, turnover and get things started.

If you want to see a good England outside centre watch videos of Jerry Guscott or David Duckham. For the best current outside centres watch O'Driscoll, Conrad Smith or Jon Davies.

Then you will see why Tuilagi should be a winger.

Fiji is the perfect match to cap Wade in and it's surely only a matter of time before we give him a shot. The lad's a natural 11 and offers an absolute bundle in attack, he's small by comparison to many (only an inch shorter than Tom Youngs), but fronts up physically very well and gets up in the air well. He's not perfect in defence, but he's nowhere near as problematic there as some people seem so fond to make out; his actual tackling is pretty good, he doesn't shy away from or get dominated by bigger players, the issue at times has been his positioning, but this is just about one of the easiest things for a dood defence coach to work with him on and fix. A lot of the great things he does bring to the table, you can't coach.

Lancaster started him in the Barbarians game at the beginning of the summer and both the midweek games on tour, so in his mind he can't be far off making that last step up to a full cap.

sirtidychris wrote:Abendanon is a bloody full back and shouldn't be considered a winger, neither should ben foden. Tuilagi is an outside centre and is our best one in a decade don't move him. Why do people always want to move world class players out of position.

Why shouldn't he be considered a winger? The world is full of talented backs who can play more than one position. I'm not sure if people always want to play people out of position, England are just searching for a balance in their attacking game. I can't see England not wanting Tuilagi in the starting line up, but it also makes sense to have an OC who complements Barritt - I'm not sure two big units in the centres is the best balance England can manage.

The stats of Wade look brilliant, has he been as good as the stats suggest?

Tuilagi played wing for England age grade and Tigers at the beginning of his career. He's a better centre, he doesn't have the instinct, lines or anticipation of a natural wing. He's shown numerous times that he can pass and offload more than well enough for a quality international 13, he just needs a bit more stability in the players around him and the knowledge that he doesn't have to take everything on himself.

bambamwillis wrote:The stats of Wade look brilliant, has he been as good as the stats suggest?

A heck of a lot of Wades good stats have come in two matches against Quins and LI - which were a little odd. Interesting to compare him to Varndell - shows how Wasps like to play - if they can get the ball and conditions allow (Wade first):

6 Matches 5
3 Tries 4
15 Points 20
1 Try assist 2
5 Kicks From Hand 3
25 Passes 16
0 Yellow cards 0
0 Red cards 0
43 Carries 36
474 Metres carried 393
12 Clean breaks 5
9 Offloads 4
11 Defenders beaten 2
24 Tackles 10
4 Missed tackles 3
1 Penalties conceded 2
10 Turnovers conceded 5

How does Ashton compare to his fellow wing rivals in the stats?

Someone I would love to see given a chance on the England wing is James Short, though he seems to have gone missing a bit for Sarries?

I know there are lots of potential options for England's wing spot at the moment, but I think he's a class act and a very good all rounder.

My impression is that Tuilagi, awesome as he is, has not gotten enough passes away to release the wing when playing for England. His physical threat draws defenders to him and he can cause them problems but if he could only release the wing having drawn in the defender...

Is this a fair assessment or just me?

bluestonevedder I agree but he won't be considered until he gets game time for Sarries.

Personally I would start him on the left wing instead of Strettle and Wyles.

Unfortunately he's down the pecking order.

Nobbled true about Tuilagi. It's part of his game that it would be great if he can develop. He needs to work on his support play more IMO.

How come he's be ousted for Strettle and Wyles beshocked? He's a far more complete winger than Strettle now days, and is a real threat. He's strong physcial, but also deadly fast! Very wasted option in my view!

I would like to see Wade start against Fiji, and depending how he goes, against the big 3.

bluestonevedder I am not sure to be honest. I think maybe the management feel that they need to get their salary cap's worth with Strettle. I wouldn't pick him. In the games I have seen him in this season he hasn't looked like scoring.

Ashton is much maligned but he does score tries and he is surprisingly good at assisting others. It's his support play which is so good.

Not a bad call about Wade. Agree start him vs Fiji. He's a contrast to Ashton IMO.

stlowe Are those stats about Biggs true!? He has passed the ball once in 6 matches?

To be fair to Tuilagi...(similar to my Barritt argument) is just how much quality ball have either of the centres had?

Nonu, Smith etc would not be setting the world alight with the kind of ball and momentum England have had recently...

Geordiefalcon ironically Barritt is one of the centres who passes the ball the most despite being labelled as a bosher and one dimensional.

We would have to look at the stats to see how much Tuilagi and Barritt pass the ball for club and country.

Tuilagi does have a habit of always looking for contact, but he's developing more and more and at least one of his offloads out the tackle directly resulted in a try on the weekend.

Dave M, england have a track record of losing games because we play people out of position e.g Stevens at loosehead, wilko 10 with flood 12, monye at fullback, wilko 10 gegarthy 12. In manu tuilagi we have one of our brightest stars for a long long time and he's really starting to play well at OC moving him to wing shouldn't even be considered. One of nick abendanons main strengths is his elusive broken running from deep, not his sheer speed, he is a fullback in every way, just like foden. It annoys me that people get changed around beacuse they can "do a job" stick with players that play in one position week in and week out.....in england we have a glut of young wingers i'd prefer to take a punt on eastmond, wade, thompsone, benjamin, may , sharples, biggs, monye etc etc than play foden, bendy or tuilagi .

beshocked wrote:How does Ashton compare to his fellow wing rivals in the stats?

- Matches 5
- Tries 3
- Points 15
- Try assist 1
- Kicks From Hand 12
- Passes 18
- Yellow cards 2
- Red cards 0
- Carries 35
- Metres carried 267
- Clean breaks 8
- Offloads 1
- Defenders beaten 9
- Tackles 12
- Missed tackles 4
- Penalties conceded 4
- Turnovers conceded 9

Thanks LondonTiger.

Wow I don't like the turnovers and penalties stats. Looks like Sarries still need to work on his discipline and defence.

His kicking is sharper though IMO.

Other stats are alright though.

Ashton's difficult to gauge because he seems to be far more effective with Hodgson than Farrell unsurprisingly.

If Flood or Burns is picked for the AIs I think Ashton will get more opportunities.

Ashton's stats would probably also be boosted if it included the HC too.

and the centres in the EPS:

Allen/Barritt/JTH

Matches 6 / 5 / 6
Tries 0 / 1 / 1
Points 0 / 5 / 5
Try assist 4 / 0 / 0
Kicks From Hand 4 / 1 / 0
Passes 19 / 28 / 21
Yellow cards 0 / 0 / 0
Red cards 0 / 0 / 0
Carries 38 / 35 / 46
Metres carried 73 / 101 / 136
Clean breaks 0 / 4 / 2
Offloads 1 / 2 / 7
Defenders beaten 5 / 3 / 1
Tackles 46 / 40 / 35
Missed tackles 5 / 3 / 4
Penalties conceded 2 / 2 / 9
Turnovers conceded 5 / 4 / 5

Manu/JJ

Matches 4 / 6
Tries 2 / 2
Points 10 / 10
Try assist 0 / 0
Kicks From Hand 2 / 6
Passes 14 / 40
Yellow cards 0 / 0
Red cards 0 / 0
Carries 31 / 41
Metres carried 230 / 193
Clean breaks 4 / 3
Offloads 4 / 6
Defenders beaten 13 / 7
Tackles 15 / 22
Missed tackles 5 / 4
Penalties conceded 2 / 0
Turnovers conceded 6 / 3

I could add in Europe - but I need to get back to paid work.

In my mind I was moving between a few of the options, but I'm definitely coming down on the side of Wade. There isn't a more exciting wing available to us, he plays left wing week in week out, his stats knock everyone else into a cocked hat and as has been pointed out, the concerns over his defence are heavily overplayed on forums like these, with positioning something that is relatively easy to address.

How about a poll on this thread?

Sometimes though we place more importance on a wingers defence than their main job....attacking and scoring tries.

Regardless of Wades defence...lets put him out there and say hey...Australia or South Africa why dont you worry about stopping some of OUR players for a change.
Let Wade loose to run riot...

We have enough defence with Barritt etc there.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Sometimes though we place more importance on a wingers defence than their main job....attacking and scoring tries.

Regardless of Wades defence...lets put him out there and say hey...Australia or South Africa why dont you worry about stopping some of OUR players for a change. Let Wade loose to run riot...

We have enough defence with Barritt etc there.

Agree with that GF, and it was quite refreshing to read actually. We do seem to put a huge stress on containing other players, rather than making them worry about trying to contain ours.

I think Wade should start on the other wing, along with Ashton.

timhen wrote:
How about a poll on this thread?

Sorry if I missed anyone.

sirtidychris wrote:Tuilagi does have a habit of always looking for contact, but he's developing more and more and at least one of his offloads out the tackle directly resulted in a try on the weekend.

Dave M, england have a track record of losing games because we play people out of position e.g Stevens at loosehead, wilko 10 with flood 12, monye at fullback, wilko 10 gegarthy 12. In manu tuilagi we have one of our brightest stars for a long long time and he's really starting to play well at OC moving him to wing shouldn't even be considered. One of nick abendanons main strengths is his elusive broken running from deep, not his sheer speed, he is a fullback in every way, just like foden. It annoys me that people get changed around beacuse they can "do a job" stick with players that play in one position week in and week out.....in england we have a glut of young wingers i'd prefer to take a punt on eastmond, wade, thompsone, benjamin, may , sharples, biggs, monye etc etc than play foden, bendy or tuilagi .

I take your point sirtidy, and I agree with you in respect of Tuilagi and our outside centre situation. As far as Abendanon goes though I really don't think the same arguments apply. We can cite numerous examples of course, players such as Cory Jane for the ABs, Jason Robinson for England and Adam Ashley-Cooper for the Wallabies who can all interchange seamlessly between wing and FB. Being a back three player means that a lot of your skill sets are similar and interchangeable.

Whilst I agree Bendy's best moments often come from broken field running from deep, I don't quite see why as a winger returning a kick he couldn't be in the same position to display his skills. Further, his extra ability under the high ball and his searing pace make him an asset on the wing rather than some sort of make-shift conversion.

Jonny May for example is currently considered a FB at Glaws, but my preferred position for him would be wing and he has all the applicable talents to play there.

sickofwendy wrote:Kyle eastmond.get him involved now,he will have a bigger impact than Jason Robinson.

If I were English I would be crying out to see:

09 Danny Care
10
11 Christian Wade
12
13 Manu Tuilagi
14 Chris Ashton
15 Ben Foden

As the backline. Its incredibly exciting.

I think the biggest call at the moment is the 10-12 axis. I wouldnt even begin to know who to put there.

Eastmond on the wing would be a bit of a waste. Would like to see either him or Twelvetrees given a go at inside centre with Tuilagi. May be a touch early for either of them though.

Where is Eastmonds settled position though...i keep hearing 12 or 13.

If thats the case id rather go for Wade or May and let Eastmond concentrate on his Bath performances.

To be honest Eastmond could play any of these 9,10,11,12,13,14,15 which could be his downfall.

He is a very talented player who I'd like to be involved with the England setup sooner rather than later.

He'd be a great player for the AI bench just to get him involved.

You reckon Eastmond could play 10? Does he have the kicking game for it? Centre or wing I agree with definitely.

nobbled wrote:

timhen wrote:
How about a poll on this thread?

Sorry if I missed anyone.

He played there the other day for Bath in the Mighty Amlin.

His kicking out of hand is top notch.