Lions wings?

by idris Wed 16 May 2012, 9:33 am

I would love to see Visser & North with Cuthbert and Bowe fighting out for the Bench place.

by maestegmafia Wed 16 May 2012, 9:48 am

Visser is a hell of a player, and if current form continues the berths will be between those four.

There is always the chance that others will put their hands up for selection by the time the tour party is named.

by Bathite Wed 16 May 2012, 9:52 am

Would have Visser pretty low down on my list to be honest. Still a complete unknown at the top level. I'd rather take proven class, that might be a bit off form than take him, but that's my personal opinion.

These three should definately travel, assuming Foden and Kearney are the FBs

Bowe
North
Halfpenny

Add in these guys as strong maybes
Cuthbert
Ashton
Evans
Trimble

Then after that I'd have the likes of Visser, Fitz, Earls

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 16 May 2012, 9:58 am

Bowe has been outclassed by Visser several times in the league. Furthermore Visser has been the top try scorer 3 seasons running in the Pro 12.

He has played one international test for the Baa Baas against England and scored 2 tries.

I'm still struggling to figure out what more he has to prove.

Headscratch

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 16 May 2012, 10:02 am

Radge, i wouldn't waste your breath, mate

by Captain_Sensible Wed 16 May 2012, 10:06 am

Add in these guys as strong maybes
Cuthbert
Ashton
Evans
Trimble

Evans? What has he done at international or club level to deserve a Lions spot? I say this as a Scotsman - he's been deeply average for us for quite a while. Sparks of genius are few and far between. Headless chickenness is the norm.

As Radge says, Visser would be in the touring party on current form alone. I fully expect him to rip it up on the international scene as well, as long as AR picks the right team to unleash him.

by maestegmafia Wed 16 May 2012, 10:24 am

Captain_Sensible wrote:
Add in these guys as strong maybes
Cuthbert
Ashton
Evans
Trimble

Evans? What has he done at international or club level to deserve a Lions spot? I say this as a Scotsman - he's been deeply average for us for quite a while. Sparks of genius are few and far between. Headless chickenness is the norm.

As Radge says, Visser would be in the touring party on current form alone. I fully expect him to rip it up on the international scene as well, as long as AR picks the right team to unleash him.

Likewise Ashton and Trimble. Good players but not even popular with the English or Irish fans. Neither have done anything of repute this season at International or club level.

by sugarNspikes Wed 16 May 2012, 10:34 am

I'd have two of these three. It's not all just based on recent form.

Bowe (may not be at his best of a season or two ago but still has an eye for the tryline)
North (adds a different dimension)
Ashton (not his greatest season but joint top try scorer at world cup and proven finisher)

Let's wait and see with Visser. Same with Cuthbert. Both have good potential and could be back-ups. We could also be looking at players like Wade by then.

Halfpenny somewhere in the mix as a utility back.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 16 May 2012, 10:44 am

There could be some left field options coming from England. Wade being he main one, he looks to be very much in the mold of Williams and has the same dancing feet and ability to wriggle through a gap. Sharples would offer a lot of pace on the outside and then Benjamin would offer a hard working power option.

Not saying any of them should hold off booking next years holiday or anything but all three could be a possibility as their stars are on the rise and let's face it, last time out Monye got a call up so...

by bluestonevedder Wed 16 May 2012, 10:47 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:There could be some left field options coming from England. Wade being he main one, he looks to be very much in the mold of Williams and has the same dancing feet and ability to wriggle through a gap. Sharples would offer a lot of pace on the outside and then Benjamin would offer a hard working power option.

Not saying any of them should hold off booking next years holiday or anything but all three could be a possibility as their stars are on the rise and let's face it, last time out Monye got a call up so...

And he's got another for this summer....!!

by KickAndChase Wed 16 May 2012, 10:55 am

Graeme Morrison?

by TycroesOsprey Wed 16 May 2012, 11:23 am

Im a bit suprised by some of the comments, its as if the last 12 months havent happened. Ashton is nowhere near the lions at the moment, not even in the squad, North, Bowe, Visser, Cuthbert and Halfpenny will all be ahead of him based the form of the last year. Ashton is also a disruptive influence in the squads he has been part of and Gatland simply wont put up with the baggage he brings.

At full back whilst I expect Foden to go as a specialist or at least on standby, hes going to be vying with Kearney who is without question the best FB under the high ball and fielding kicks in the NH. Byrne is back to his 2009 form and is producing sparkling rugby in France. Halfpenny is a grand slam winner and has proven his credentials at 15 as well so I really dont see Foden getting into the team at the moment.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 16 May 2012, 11:25 am

Ashton is also a disruptive influence in the squads he has been part of and Gatland simply wont put up with the baggage he brings.

I don't think he has. He may land himself in trouble on the pitch at times with Saints but he always seems to get on with his fellow players.

by geoff998rugby Wed 16 May 2012, 11:41 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Bowe has been outclassed by Visser several times in the league. Furthermore Visser has been the top try scorer 3 seasons running in the Pro 12.

He has played one international test for the Baa Baas against England and scored 2 tries.

I'm still struggling to figure out what more he has to prove.

Well Trimble has out classed Visser this year so where does that leave him ?

Until Visser plays International rugby he remains a maybe.

Kearney
Bowe
North

for me.
Bowe delivers when it counts, North is the best winger and no one catches and runs with the ball like Kearney.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 16 May 2012, 11:43 am

geoff998rugby wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Bowe has been outclassed by Visser several times in the league. Furthermore Visser has been the top try scorer 3 seasons running in the Pro 12.

He has played one international test for the Baa Baas against England and scored 2 tries.

I'm still struggling to figure out what more he has to prove.

Well Trimble has out classed Visser this year so where does that leave him ?

Until Visser plays International rugby he remains a maybe.

Kearney
Bowe
North

for me.
Bowe delivers when it counts, North is the best winger and no one catches and runs with the ball like Kearney.

And when would that have been?! Don't give me the old Ulster vs Embra league games tosh when Embra had a B team out!!

by geoff998rugby Wed 16 May 2012, 11:49 am

The away game in the Pro12. Edinburgh were about 2 players short from their best XV. Trimble gave Visser a lesson in wing play.

Visser looked very green that day. Great with the ball in hand but defensively niave.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 16 May 2012, 11:52 am

geoff998rugby wrote:The away game in the Pro12. Edinburgh were about 2 players short from their best XV. Trimble gave Visser a lesson in wing play.

Visser looked very green that day. Great with the ball in hand but defensively niave.

Nonsense

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 16 May 2012, 11:53 am

geoff998rugby wrote:The away game in the Pro12. Edinburgh were about 2 players short from their best XV. Trimble gave Visser a lesson in wing play.

Visser looked very green that day. Great with the ball in hand but defensively niave.

That is nonsense. The day Trimble is the top try scorer in the Pro12 3 years running I would include him to be in the running. Untill then.....

by beshocked Wed 16 May 2012, 11:54 am

Agree with Sam I think Wade could be a bolter.

by TycroesOsprey Wed 16 May 2012, 12:01 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Ashton is also a disruptive influence in the squads he has been part of and Gatland simply wont put up with the baggage he brings.

I don't think he has. He may land himself in trouble on the pitch at times with Saints but he always seems to get on with his fellow players.

2012 cant score a try for toffee in the 6N, very much out of favour with the saints after his decisioh to leave has a bust up with mallindfer gets dropeed and is forced to aploogise to his coach. Hairpulling incident is described as shameful by Saints board banned for 4 weeks.
2011 - RWC, censured for his behaviour whilst on a drunken night out, forced to aplogise after intimidating female staff. fight with Manu Tuilagi, criticised for his attitude by then England captain Moody.
2009 manages one try in his first season in the premiership criticised for showboating and lack of discipline by coach mallinder
2007 contract terminated early by Wigan, comment made by chairman, "It is pointless having a player whose mind is elsewhere."

Not many saints players or wigan players have anything good to say about him he has left both clubs with recriminations he has been a press nightmare on tour and most importantly he is not scoring tries. Why would any coach want all that baggage for a mediocre player who is off form as opposed to players who are going to give everything for the team, behave and not cause disruption?

by Bathite Wed 16 May 2012, 12:06 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Bowe has been outclassed by Visser several times in the league. Furthermore Visser has been the top try scorer 3 seasons running in the Pro 12.

He has played one international test for the Baa Baas against England and scored 2 tries.

I'm still struggling to figure out what more he has to prove.

:headscratch:

To play internationally at the very top level and to perform consistently in the HC. Scoring tries in the Rabo or any league isn't enough for me. Otherwise Steve Hanley and Tom Varndell would already be established international stars!

by beshocked Wed 16 May 2012, 12:12 pm

Yes tyrcoes osprey because of course M.Tuilagi clotheslining/shoulder charging off the ball against Ashton then punching him was Ashton's fault.

Intimidating female staff? It was actually a media hungry grabbing individual blowing the whole incident out of proportion.

You and others have an unfair grudge against Ashton. I think he gets an unfair kicking.

When a certain Welsh winger showboats it's alright but when Ashton does it he's derided.

Yes Ashton has handled some of these incidents badly and has shown to be immature but there are far worse things done by other individuals.

by TycroesOsprey Wed 16 May 2012, 12:18 pm

my point is that Ashton is not deserving on a place in the lions on form or on behaviour over players who are playing better and work for their team on and off the pitch. If Ashton had a discipline record or a scoring record on a par with Shane I dont think anyone would be moaning about the showboating.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 16 May 2012, 12:21 pm

2012 cant score a try for toffee in the 6N, very much out of favour with the saints after his decisioh to leave has a bust up with mallindfer gets dropeed and is forced to aploogise to his coach. Hairpulling incident is described as shameful by Saints board banned for 4 weeks.

Being dropped for form is hardly unusual in the AP (especially when Saints have good wing options) and with Saints unable to decide on which 10 they want to use their backline has struggled all season with the exception of Pisi (when played at 13). England offered nothing in running rugby at the 6N so no surprise he didn't score many there, Hodgson being the only English player to score more than 1 try in the tournament. The hair pulling ban was moronic but Saints vs Tigers games are reknownedly brutal and tensions run very high.

2011 - RWC, censured for his behaviour whilst on a drunken night out, forced to aplogise after intimidating female staff. fight with Manu Tuilagi, criticised for his attitude by then England captain Moody.
2009 manages one try in his first season in the premiership criticised for showboating and lack of discipline by coach mallinder

At the RWC was b0ll0cked for being in the same room as Haskell and Hartley made idiots of themselves, Haskell is in fact suing the female member of staff over some of the claims she made. Fight with Manu earnt him a whole YC which is nothing really and showed he has a good jaw. I've not seen or heard the Moody comments, sounds out of character for Moody, you have a link?

Ashton then scored a load of tries in the Championship (breaking the league record) and did well enough in the AP after taking a season to adjust (not unusual for new players to the AP).

He's not the brightest spark but I wouldn't say he was a disruptive influence anymore than most rugby players.

by beshocked Wed 16 May 2012, 12:23 pm

TycroesOsprey the Lions isn't till next year.

15 tries in 23 caps is not a bad strike rate.

Ashton and the other wingers weren't given that many opportunities in the latest 6 nations to strut their stuff.

Plenty of time for Ashton to lay down a marker.

Give Ashton a chance before writing him completely off.

by geoff998rugby Wed 16 May 2012, 12:27 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:The away game in the Pro12. Edinburgh were about 2 players short from their best XV. Trimble gave Visser a lesson in wing play.

Visser looked very green that day. Great with the ball in hand but defensively niave.

That is nonsense. The day Trimble is the top try scorer in the Pro12 3 years running I would include him to be in the running. Untill then.....

On that day Trimble out played Visser ...end of story.

If you read my complete post I conceed he is good with the bal lin hand but at the highest level you have to be good defensively as well.
From memory Visser was to blame for a couple of Ulster tries that day

by wales606 Wed 16 May 2012, 12:28 pm

Has Ashton scored an international try give that Italy game?

I think he will struggle to make the tour (or even the England team) if he doesn't improve over the summer and AIs.

11. George North
14. Tommy Bowe
15. Rob Kearney

23. Leigh Halfpenny

Backup1. Alex Cuthbert
Backup2. Tim Visser

by TycroesOsprey Wed 16 May 2012, 12:29 pm

beshocked wrote:TycroesOsprey the Lions isn't till next year.

15 tries in 23 caps is not a bad strike rate.

Ashton and the other wingers weren't given that many opportunities in the latest 6 nations to strut their stuff.

Plenty of time for Ashton to lay down a marker.

Give Ashton a chance before writing him completely off.

Certainly if he rediscovers his form and is scoring then he is a viable option as a player. If he can clean up his behaviour at Sarries, not have bust ups with his coach and not get in trouble whilst out on the town then he is certainly an option. However at the moment he is not scoring and his discipline on and off the pitch is questionable and his attitude has been questioned by coaches, players, captains at all of the clubs he has represented and for England. Im not writing him off I am saying he is nowhere near the lions based on current form and reputation. There are othjer players who are scoring and who dont get into the trouble he does who are clearly better options. As for his 15 tries, he hasnt scored agasint a top nation since jan 2011 when he crossed againt the welsh.

by geoff998rugby Wed 16 May 2012, 12:29 pm

Visser is a very good player but he isn't the second coming as some here seem to portray.

He also has not played at the highest level to fully see if his weaknesses get exposed or not. Until that occurs he is not favourite for a Lions shirt.

by beshocked Wed 16 May 2012, 12:37 pm

Agree with Geoff.

Tim Visser seems to be a ridiculously hyped 606v2 darling.

The guy needs to actually prove himself.

Ashton is written off despite having 23 caps for England. Cmon guys!

Actually tycroesosprey I am pretty sure Ashton scored some tries recently for Saints. I think 3 in 4 games.

Nowhere near the Lions is a huge exaggeration. He's low on confidence at the moment but he's got the ability.

It's important for Ashton that Saracens adopt a more attacking style - with a potential back three of Ashton,Strettle and Goode you think they could.

by geoff998rugby Wed 16 May 2012, 12:38 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:The away game in the Pro12. Edinburgh were about 2 players short from their best XV. Trimble gave Visser a lesson in wing play.

Visser looked very green that day. Great with the ball in hand but defensively niave.
Nonsense

Edinburgh site is a poor one to establish the facts but a team with Cross, Ford, Jacobsen, Cox, Talei, Laidlaw, Goodman, DeLuca, Visser, Patterson is pretty close to full strength. 4 at most 2nd XV players I'd say - so hardly nonsense. Bottom line is Trimble still outplayed Visser and there were a number of match ups that day.

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 16 May 2012, 12:44 pm

Rennie, Denton and Blair were all absent. Godman was playing!

Nowhere near full strength.

To be honest if Visser was offered to Ulster on a free trade for Trimble, are you seriously saying you would turn the transfer down?

If the answer is yes you are a madman.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 16 May 2012, 12:44 pm

geoff998rugby wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:The away game in the Pro12. Edinburgh were about 2 players short from their best XV. Trimble gave Visser a lesson in wing play.

Visser looked very green that day. Great with the ball in hand but defensively niave.
Nonsense

Edinburgh site is a poor one to establish the facts but a team with Cross, Ford, Jacobsen, Cox, Talei, Laidlaw, Goodman, DeLuca, Visser, Patterson is pretty close to full strength. 4 at most 2nd XV players I'd say - so hardly nonsense. Bottom line is Trimble still outplayed Visser and there were a number of match ups that day.

Let me help you, geoff:

HOME GAME/HEINO SF
Paterson/Brown - inferior
Brown/Jones - out of position/inferior
De Luca/De Luca
King/Scott - inferior
Visser/Visser
Godman/Laidlaw - inferior
Laidlaw/Blair - out of position/inferior
Jacobsen/Jacobsen
Ford/Ford
Cross/Cross
Cox/Cox
Lozada/Gilchrist - inferior
McInally/Denton - inferior
Grant/Rennie - inferior
Talei/Talei

Hope that's helpful. Obviously what this ignores is the mindset - Embra had given up on the league entirely by this stage. Relative play in the Heino SF is far more indicative, and Visser looked superior to Trimble (and don't forget I'm a weegie, not a gurner!)

by thomh Wed 16 May 2012, 12:46 pm

wales606 wrote:Has Ashton scored an international try give that Italy game?

I assume you meant 'since' and yes; he was joint top try-scorer at the World Cup.

by Pete330v2 Wed 16 May 2012, 12:47 pm

From what I've seen of Visser he's pretty sharp with ball in hand but is fairly blunt in defence. If being the top try scorer was everything to being a test class winger then Fionn Carr would have had Irish and Lions caps to crow about. You don't pick wingers just by counting tries and they need to bring much, much more to the party. Something I don't think Visser has proven just yet. Lets see him on the international stage (where all the others mentioned have proven their worth) before we have him as a shoe-in.

P.S. Trimble is closer to a Lions shirt than Visser and Trimbs probably won't be getting one any time soon. Seeeemples

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 16 May 2012, 12:50 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:From what I've seen of Visser he's pretty sharp with ball in hand but is fairly blunt in defence. If being the top try scorer was everything to being a test class winger then Fionn Carr would have had Irish and Lions caps to crow about. You don't pick wingers just by counting tries and they need to bring much, much more to the party. Something I don't think Visser has proven just yet. Lets see him on the international stage (where all the others mentioned have proven their worth) before we have him as a shoe-in.

P.S. Trimble is closer to a Lions shirt than Visser and Trimbs probably won't be getting one any time soon. Seeeemples

by flyhalffactory Wed 16 May 2012, 12:52 pm

geoff998rugby wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:The away game in the Pro12. Edinburgh were about 2 players short from their best XV. Trimble gave Visser a lesson in wing play.

Visser looked very green that day. Great with the ball in hand but defensively niave.
Nonsense

Edinburgh site is a poor one to establish the facts but a team with Cross, Ford, Jacobsen, Cox, Talei, Laidlaw, Goodman, DeLuca, Visser, Patterson is pretty close to full strength. 4 at most 2nd XV players I'd say - so hardly nonsense. Bottom line is Trimble still outplayed Visser and there were a number of match ups that day.

On that day we had probably had 6-7 first choice players on show, Visser went past Trimble on three occasions albeit his defensive frailties were highlighted to everyone. This season we have worked on his defensive positioning (not so much his technique), and he is a much improved version of the one you saw.

IMHO this thread is pointless as havent even had the summer series yet.......... form, injuries, new emerging talents could all change the ballgame

by thomh Wed 16 May 2012, 12:54 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Bowe has been outclassed by Visser several times in the league. Furthermore Visser has been the top try scorer 3 seasons running in the Pro 12.

He has played one international test for the Baa Baas against England and scored 2 tries.

I'm still struggling to figure out what more he has to prove.

Radge - I don't know a single person (myself included) who doesn't think Visser is going to be a seriously good international, but it's not true to say he's got nothing more to prove. That Barbarians game you mentioned wasn't a test match. It was against a scratch England team missing all of its Leicester, Saracens and Northampton players (except Myler).

I'm sure he'll be a great player, but he can't prove that he's a good international player without playing any internationals.

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 16 May 2012, 12:56 pm

This is some one eyed nonsense being posted up here. I'm kind of hoping some of the more level headed posters will pipe up here and point out the Trimble and Visser have a clear differance in class.

Visser has routinely made Bowe look like a numpty but Trimble struggles to discplace Bowe in a 1st choice Ireland team.

On another note, I feel if it were down to morals, Trimble should tour. He is a born and bread Lions & Ireland represtative. His place would sit better with me over moral grounds since Visser is a dutchman. He will soon become McVisser but in his heart of hearts he will never consider himself a Scotsman and ergo should forfeit his Lions place to home grown players.

It really wound me up when Flutey got Lions caps despite being nothing more than a mercenary. It would be hypocritical of me to not mention Visser in the same light.

However if it were down to skill and ability Visser over Trimble everytime.

by Pete330v2 Wed 16 May 2012, 12:57 pm

thomh wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Bowe has been outclassed by Visser several times in the league. Furthermore Visser has been the top try scorer 3 seasons running in the Pro 12.

He has played one international test for the Baa Baas against England and scored 2 tries.

I'm still struggling to figure out what more he has to prove.

Radge - I don't know a single person (myself included) who doesn't think Visser is going to be a seriously good international, but it's not true to say he's got nothing more to prove. That Barbarians game you mentioned wasn't a test match. It was against a scratch England team missing all of its Leicester, Saracens and Northampton players (except Myler).

I'm sure he'll be a great player, but he can't prove that he's a good international player without playing any internationals.

by sugarNspikes Wed 16 May 2012, 12:58 pm

If we're talking about scoring for the Baa Baa's as a yardstick of a player being ready for Lions rugby then Sam Tomkins should be in the squad too. Ok, he doesn't play the right sport Wink

Visser has potential but to consider him probable for the Lions at this stage is getting carried away.

by beshocked Wed 16 May 2012, 12:59 pm

Why has this thread turned into Trimble vs Visser? I can't see either in the Lions at the moment to be honest.

by maestegmafia Wed 16 May 2012, 1:01 pm

Here is the 606V2 vote

Chris Ashton 17% [ 27 ]
Manu Tuilagi 1% [ 2 ]
Christian Wade 14% [ 22 ]
Tommy Bowe 30% [ 48 ]
Tim Visser 9% [ 15 ]
Max Evans 11% [ 18 ]
Alex Cuthbert 15% [ 24 ]

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 16 May 2012, 1:05 pm

maestegmafia wrote:Here is the 606V2 vote

Chris Ashton 17% [ 27 ]
Manu Tuilagi 1% [ 2 ]
Christian Wade 14% [ 22 ]
Tommy Bowe 30% [ 48 ]
Tim Visser 9% [ 15 ]
Max Evans 11% [ 18 ]
Alex Cuthbert 15% [ 24 ]

Nice one, maes, now divide by national affiliation of v2 posters, multiply by your shoe size and you can come up with another set of meaningless numbers

by timhen Wed 16 May 2012, 2:07 pm

A griffin's?

by RubyGuby Wed 16 May 2012, 2:08 pm

North & Visser would be absolutely awesome IMO thumbsup

by wales606 Wed 16 May 2012, 3:50 pm

For starting wings can anyone really suggest that Bowe and North are not the best options at the moment.

by Zander Wed 16 May 2012, 3:57 pm

What does everyone think of an outside shot of Wade for the Lions tour? He always seems to wriggle out of difficult situations and is a good try scorer.

by gowales Wed 16 May 2012, 4:12 pm

If he's gets selected for England and plays really well then i see no reason why he couldn't, he certainly has the attributes

by Tattie Scones RRN Wed 16 May 2012, 4:43 pm

gowales wrote:If he's gets selected for England and plays really well then i see no reason why he couldn't, he certainly has the attributes

Wade is a poor man's Trimble.

Trimble is a starter for sure

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