Lions wings?

First topic message reminder :

I would love to see Visser & North with Cuthbert and Bowe fighting out for the Bench place.

wales606 wrote:For starting wings can anyone really suggest that Bowe and North are not the best options at the moment.

Sanity at last

I really hope Visser can live up to some of the hype on here when he plays for Scotland otherwise some people are gonna have egg on their face. Dare I say it I remember on the old 606 Nick De Luca being hyped as the next BOD just before his first Scotland cap - oh dear.

Visser is Scotlands version of George North only physically more mature - the guy is an absolute beast - Bowe although a class winger isn't exactly in the form of his life

And yet he still did one of the most important jobs of a wing better than anyone else at the 6N, 5 tries in an underperfoming side (North got only 1 in the dominant side).

Can't see how Wade is a poor mans' Trimble. Struggling to think of two wingers less similar!!

Not advocating that Wade should go, but small quick pacey wingers have been picked as bolters on a Lions tour before and done alright.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-bgKkO0KmA

Still one of my favourite ever tries. Such a tricky piece of skill, made to look so simple

Bathite wrote:Can't see how Wade is a poor mans' Trimble. Struggling to think of two wingers less similar!!

Not advocating that Wade should go, but small quick pacey wingers have been picked as bolters on a Lions tour before and done alright.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-bgKkO0KmA

Still one of my favourite ever tries. Such a tricky piece of skill, made to look so simple

And

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xsyf7Eob_p8

Think it was a Scottish fan being sarcastic when he said Wade is a poor mans Trimble, since they are all now attacking Trimble since Geoff said he got the better of Visser (which he did).

Wade is a serious propsect...and certainly a similar style to Shane and Jason...but they are 2 of the greatest players of all time...lets see how Wade goes in SA

I do believe though he could be a bolter...

Wade looks a great prospect. Very unfortunate for him to get injured after a great start to the early season.

North scored only one try during the 6 nations? Have to say that is a pretty poor strike record for a winger, especially considering the form of Wales.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:North scored only one try during the 6 nations? Have to say that is a pretty poor strike record for a winger, especially considering the form of Wales.

He set up other tries though.

Cuthbert scored 3, Halfpenny 2, Jonathon Davies 2, Jamie Roberts 1,

All of Wales' backline were scoring tries which made them so deadly.

I know he sets plenty of tries up, much more than he scores them himself. Makes me think he actually would make a better 13.

The stats have him down for only 1 try assist during the Six Nations.

His metres carried were decent, but things like averaging conceding 2 turnovers a match, and only 8 tackles made with 2 missed highlight why Cuthbert looked a lot better.

North didnt have a great 6N after the Ireland match when he was ouutstanding. Even so he creates space with his running for the players around him as he sucks defenders in. He was also carrying an injury from the scotland game onwards. North is still very raw and inexperienced, his workrate in defence is somthing scarlets fans have commeted on before and his kick return is dire. Hes only going to get better though and being on the wing gives him the time he needs to develop. Moving him to 13 wouldnt help just now although I dont rule it out at some point in a couple of years.

North runs good lines off the flyhalf and can create space for other players around him. He just needs to improve his kicking game to become a top international winger.

Lots of competition- Visser, North, Bowe all likely IMO, Cuthbert, Wade, etc all options too. Let's at least see how they all tour against the big boys

wing is a position where quite often you relatively inexperienced players can make an impression very quickly. wouldnt be suprised if craig gilroy, christian wade or harry robinson made the squad the same way a tennage leigh halpenny and 20 year old keith earls did back in 2009.

That's what i was thinking matfield

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Bowe has been outclassed by Visser several times in the league. Furthermore Visser has been the top try scorer 3 seasons running in the Pro 12.

He has played one international test for the Baa Baas against England and scored 2 tries.

I'm still struggling to figure out what more he has to prove.

I would hardly call the Babas game against england a test, Test rugby is a massive step up from a Babas fixture and pro12

My choices would be:
North
Cuthbert
Ashton
Trimble
Bowe

And with an outside chance Wade ,Visser and Monye

What has Ashton done recently to warrant selection?

Artful_Dodger wrote:I really hope Visser can live up to some of the hype on here when he plays for Scotland otherwise some people are gonna have egg on their face. Dare I say it I remember on the old 606 Nick De Luca being hyped as the next BOD just before his first Scotland cap - oh dear.

I'd gladly have a truck load of egg on my face! I'd sing loudly from the top of a mountain that I believed in Visser.. I'd say: "I had a dream.. that Tim MacVisser, the flying dutchman turned Scotsman, would transfer his amazing talents onto the international stage. I know I must have been mad to think it, but I did.. But so help me I was justified... Can't a brother beeelieeeevvvee?? Can i get an Amen!?"

Amen

He did a great interveiw on the News last night, the Scotland Jersey really suited McVisser tbh.

Hope he does come good for Scotland. Give the man space and he'll find the try line.

If Visser moved to a different team he'd soon suffer Fionn Carr syndrome, i.e. The game plan is not "give the ball to Tim and see what he can do". The second top try scorer at Endiburgh (in the league this year) is De Luca with 3 tries.

He's a quality finisher but totally unproven at international level, i wish him luck but i don't expect him to be as good as some of you. Sure even Dave Kearney gave him a horrible time this year.

Very good counter argument Mickado. Carr was a top try scorer, playing for Connacht, then when he moved to a better team with better competition (Leinster) his try scoring ratio has dropped remarkably. What is to say the same won't happen to Visser?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Very good counter argument Mickado. Carr was a top try scorer, playing for Connacht, then when he moved to a better team with better competition (Leinster) his try scoring ratio has dropped remarkably. What is to say the same won't happen to Visser?

Who know what will happen, Rory, I can only relate my expectations to you. Look at what a torrid time he gave Ulster in the Heino SF

Mickado wrote:If Visser moved to a different team he'd soon suffer Fionn Carr syndrome, i.e. The game plan is not "give the ball to Tim and see what he can do". The second top try scorer at Endiburgh (in the league this year) is De Luca with 3 tries.

He's a quality finisher but totally unproven at international level, i wish him luck but i don't expect him to be as good as some of you. Sure even Dave Kearney gave him a horrible time this year.

I'm pretty sure if Visser a much better player than Carr signed for most other teams in the Rabo, Aviva prem or Top 14 he would still be as lethal as he is now. He'd be a good replacement for Shane next year that's for sure!... better than Eli Walker anyway

Asbo, I'd say with Andy Robinson calling the shots Visser will get his hands on the ball quite a bit, but he's not going to have the try scoring opportunities unless the Scottish back play in general improves.

The Scottish backline is stifled by the likes of Lamont and Morrison at 12, or worse Parks at 10. Parks is gone and Morrison wasn't picked for Scotland's tour. Robinson can still make a hash of it by picking Lamont at 12 but I hope he brought Matt Scott for a reason.

Visser Scores tries for Edinburgh because the 10/12/13 axis creates space for him. If Laidlaw, Scott and NDL can create that space for Scotland Visser will score tries IMO, probably more reliably than the likes of Trimble and Ashton.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:The Scottish backline is stifled by the likes of Lamont and Morrison at 12, or worse Parks at 10. Parks is gone and Morrison wasn't picked for Scotland's tour. Robinson can still make a hash of it by picking Lamont at 12 but I hope he brought Matt Scott for a reason.

Visser Scores tries for Edinburgh because the 10/12/13 axis creates space for him. If Laidlaw, Scott and NDL can create that space for Scotland Visser will score tries IMO, probably more reliably than the likes of Trimble and Ashton.

But Ulster scored more tries this year, so despite not having a try machine on their team (top scorer is Cave with 5) their attack is more varied. So maybe Visser scored more tries than Trimble but that doesn't make him a better player.

Trimble is very average

in your opinion - not mine

We'll find out about Visser soon enough. At the moment he has talent and international potential. So did Matt Tait, Chris Ashton had close to a try per game scoring ratio in club matches when he was selected for England at first, strettle looked the business a few years ago and now everyone is up in arms that he is playing for England. These are just English cases, I'm sure every other team, Scotland included, have had their own. I hope he is good at this level. But just like with Wade etc for us, there is only one way to find out and depicting a player as the saviour of your nation's rugby before he has played one International is setting yourselves and him up for a fall and, as we English are often told, puts undue and unfair pressure on the player when the media inevitably overhype them

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:What has Ashton done recently to warrant selection?

Could say the same about Dutch/Scottish deity Visser.

Ashton has 16 tries in 23 games on the international stage.

He's moving to a club where his boy hood legend resides. Next season Ashton will grow 10ft tall and score tries left right and centre as Saracens adopt an attack from everywhere approach. With a star studded backline of English stars and the next big thing at 13 ( Joel Tomkins) Ashton will once again become the greatest winger in the world, he will tries against Leicester and Saints and finish them off with spectacular swan dives because he can.

beshocked wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:What has Ashton done recently to warrant selection?

Could say the same about Dutch/Scottish deity Visser.

Ashton has 16 tries in 23 games on the international stage.

He's moving to a club where his boy hood legend resides. Next season Ashton will grow 10ft tall and score tries left right and centre as Saracens adopt an attack from everywhere approach. With a star studded backline of English stars and the next big thing at 13 ( Joel Tomkins) Ashton will once again become the greatest winger in the world, he will tries against Leicester and Saints and finish them off with spectacular swan dives because he can.

Are Saracens going to base next years game plan around Aston alone?

Cmon Mickado it's tongue in cheek.

To answer your question yes. Ashton is a legend. Not quite as much as the deity Visser but he's slowly getting there.

In all seriousness what's the point of signing Ashton if he's just going to sit on the wing chasing the ball as Saracens kick it again and again.

Would I have signed Ashton? No. If Ashton can't get the ball what's the point?

A quality 13 is what every side needs.

Ashton should have signed for the Ospreys you know it to be true

Mickado wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:The Scottish backline is stifled by the likes of Lamont and Morrison at 12, or worse Parks at 10. Parks is gone and Morrison wasn't picked for Scotland's tour. Robinson can still make a hash of it by picking Lamont at 12 but I hope he brought Matt Scott for a reason.

Visser Scores tries for Edinburgh because the 10/12/13 axis creates space for him. If Laidlaw, Scott and NDL can create that space for Scotland Visser will score tries IMO, probably more reliably than the likes of Trimble and Ashton.

But Ulster scored more tries this year, so despite not having a try machine on their team (top scorer is Cave with 5) their attack is more varied. So maybe Visser scored more tries than Trimble but that doesn't make him a better player.

Mickado, I think you might need to see all the stats you are bandying about in context - Embra gave up on the league at Christmas to focus on the Heino.

I was going to suggest you get some cheek reinforcement there alright Beshocked. Just checking, some people on here do suffer from such delusions.

A quality 13 is what every side needs..

Nah, we've been doing alright with some chump at 13 for the last few years now

Also Visser's peers in the Pro 12 voted him the best player.

The player's player of the season isn't handed out to people who are average.

ChequeredJersey wrote:We'll find out about Visser soon enough. At the moment he has talent and international potential. So did Matt Tait, Chris Ashton had close to a try per game scoring ratio in club matches when he was selected for England at first, strettle looked the business a few years ago and now everyone is up in arms that he is playing for England. These are just English cases, I'm sure every other team, Scotland included, have had their own. I hope he is good at this level. But just like with Wade etc for us, there is only one way to find out and depicting a player as the saviour of your nation's rugby before he has played one International is setting yourselves and him up for a fall and, as we English are often told, puts undue and unfair pressure on the player when the media inevitably overhype them

CJ, I agree, altho I don't know anyone who has depicted Visser as Scotland's saviour - he'll be a significant improvement in the 11 jersey on what we have now, but we need the whole backline fixed for him to flourish

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Mickado wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:The Scottish backline is stifled by the likes of Lamont and Morrison at 12, or worse Parks at 10. Parks is gone and Morrison wasn't picked for Scotland's tour. Robinson can still make a hash of it by picking Lamont at 12 but I hope he brought Matt Scott for a reason.

Visser Scores tries for Edinburgh because the 10/12/13 axis creates space for him. If Laidlaw, Scott and NDL can create that space for Scotland Visser will score tries IMO, probably more reliably than the likes of Trimble and Ashton.

But Ulster scored more tries this year, so despite not having a try machine on their team (top scorer is Cave with 5) their attack is more varied. So maybe Visser scored more tries than Trimble but that doesn't make him a better player.

Mickado, I think you might need to see all the stats you are bandying about in context - Embra gave up on the league at Christmas to focus on the Heino.

Ah but As, if we can't count stats since Christmas then we can't count the tries Visser has scored since then either. So he's actually only got 8 tries which is two less than Cuthbert and the same as Zebo

Where's that :burymyheadinhands: emoticon when you need it!

Well it's clear a lot of people here don't rate Visser, fair enough. As ASBO said he'll need the right players in the backs for Scotland to bring his Edinburgh form to bare. Here's hopping AR gets his act together and permenantly shelf's Lamont and Morrison at 12.

Look, the fella is good. But I wouldn’t tout him for the Lions until he’s proven himself to be up to the task. And I don’t believe that scoring loads of tries in a team that concedes more tries than Aironi is proving himself. but he’s going on tour and I’ll watch him and update my opinion if I need to.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:We'll find out about Visser soon enough. At the moment he has talent and international potential. So did Matt Tait, Chris Ashton had close to a try per game scoring ratio in club matches when he was selected for England at first, strettle looked the business a few years ago and now everyone is up in arms that he is playing for England. These are just English cases, I'm sure every other team, Scotland included, have had their own. I hope he is good at this level. But just like with Wade etc for us, there is only one way to find out and depicting a player as the saviour of your nation's rugby before he has played one International is setting yourselves and him up for a fall and, as we English are often told, puts undue and unfair pressure on the player when the media inevitably overhype them

CJ, I agree, altho I don't know anyone who has depicted Visser as Scotland's saviour - he'll be a significant improvement in the 11 jersey on what we have now, but we need the whole backline fixed for him to flourish

Yeah, I've not been seeing too much overhyping here, just be aware it could take him a few matches to settle down properly. I think Visser is an international class player though I've only seen him in a few HEC games, but whilst he is a good outside choice to play for the Lions, right now the established internationals have to be ahead of him. I personally cannot wait to see some of the likes of Hogg, Visser, Wade, JJ, May, Kearney Jr, Zebo, Cuthbert etc fight it out at next year's 6N for Lions spots

Mickado wrote:I was going to suggest you get some cheek reinforcement there alright Beshocked. Just checking, some people on here do suffer from such delusions.

A quality 13 is what every side needs..

Nah, we've been doing alright with some chump at 13 for the last few years now

Trust me I do suffer from delusions occasionally but in this case it's more wishful thinking than anything.

I think Ashton would be more suited at a club like Quins personally. I would love to have a 13 such as Lowe,Joseph,Daly or M.Tuilagi.

Even that random chump you have at Leinster though I do worry that the tape holding him together might come undone.

There is a certain ex England no 13 on the market but I think he would be more suited to a club like Bath.

Though if he came to Saracens he could join Ashton in a newly set up dwarf throwing competition to welcome him to the club.

Am i the only one who finds it a little weird that Wade is mentioned in the same situation as Cuthbert.

Cuthbert, who performed so well, many say above North, in the 6nations for the grand slam winners. Scoring the GS winning try that broke the deadlock against France in the final game. One of the young players who's shown they can handle the pressure a big game brings and deliver results, who is physically imposing aswell as quick and fleet of foot.

Wade is showing a lot of potential, i just think Cuthbert is a lot further along in his development and am a bit surprised theyre being mentioned as being on the same level.

For whats its worth, my match day squad back 3 & sub would be:

11. North
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

22. Halfpenny (covers all of the back 3 equally well)

I would also say Visser has done well in the Rabo and the euro-games he's played in. But lets see him at test level before saying hes a lions tourist. Theres a big difference in test rugby and so many who have looked like greats at club level have really struggled in their international teams.

Wade and Visser are in the same position, looking like real possibilities but behind Cuthbert in the current stakes