Lions wings?

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I would love to see Visser & North with Cuthbert and Bowe fighting out for the Bench place.

loadsa wingers, loadsa time to seperate the wheat from the chaff........lets have some size and a couple with some serious gas and maybe a smattering of that 'certain something' in the other!

Visser seems to change his allegience by the season....dutch, then would have played for England when at the falcons now "for sure" he's a scot.

Anyway regardless...it will interesting to see his performances...

Can i say...all the discussions at the moment are meaningless...as a year in rugby is a LONG time, with both form...newbies coming through...and the unfortunate one...injury...

Just as likely as Wade, I would say that young Harry Robinson and Luke Morgan could well impress at regional level next season.

If Visser is to go, then Dirksen could be a possible selection too..

maestegmafia wrote:
If Visser is to go, then Dirksen could be a possible selection too..

North and Cuthbert both fit the criteria too.

sugarNspikes wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:
If Visser is to go, then Dirksen could be a possible selection too..

North and Cuthbert both fit the criteria too.

No they are both international players...! Dirksen and Visser, currently are not.

maestegmafia wrote:

sugarNspikes wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:
If Visser is to go, then Dirksen could be a possible selection too..

North and Cuthbert both fit the criteria too.

No they are both international players...! Dirksen and Visser, currently are not.

I swear you live on a another planet, mate!

sugarNspikes wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

sugarNspikes wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:
If Visser is to go, then Dirksen could be a possible selection too..

North and Cuthbert both fit the criteria too.

No they are both international players...! Dirksen and Visser, currently are not.

I swear you live on a another planet, mate!

I am currently living in England... Does that count...???

What on earth are you blathering about now...?

maestegmafia wrote:

sugarNspikes wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

sugarNspikes wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:
If Visser is to go, then Dirksen could be a possible selection too..

North and Cuthbert both fit the criteria too.

No they are both international players...! Dirksen and Visser, currently are not.

I swear you live on a another planet, mate!

I am currently living in England... Does that count...???

What on earth are you blathering about now...?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:North scored only one try during the 6 nations? Have to say that is a pretty poor strike record for a winger, especially considering the form of Wales.

What North did to set up Davies's 2nd try v Ireland is world about 20 tries in my book. Sheer class.

North almost scored against England after 1 minute, but the English defence was class the rest of the match.
His chances against Italy, Scotland and France were limited. Sometimes the ball goes to the other winger more and that's how it turned out. Don't expect 10 tries from him every game.

sugarNspikes wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:
If Visser is to go, then Dirksen could be a possible selection too..

North and Cuthbert both fit the criteria too.

Dirksen wont be qualified for any Lions union, so he can't play for the Lions.

Well it was worth 5 points, not 100.. so your book isn't the best at calculating scores. Also, North won't be able to do that against any good centre partnerships. In that game he was playing against the worst centre partnership in the world.

I don't expect North to score every game, but 1 try in the 6 nations, where he will have met his weakest opposition most likely, is a pretty average track record. I wonder if he will improve on that between now and the next lions tour. Cuthbert could even overtake North (who was majorly overhyped during the 6 nations) if he continues to improve.

wales606 wrote:For starting wings can anyone really suggest that Bowe and North are not the best options at the moment.

Yes - Visser is better.

You guys will see but top scorer in the magners / rabo and voted player of the year when playing for a well beaten team? Not just a try or two extraq but scoring at twice the rate. He made all the other wingers he came up against look poor pretty much and IIRC outplayed north comprehensivly

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Well it was worth 5 points, not 100.. so your book isn't the best at calculating scores. Also, North won't be able to do that against any good centre partnerships. In that game he was playing against the worst centre partnership in the world.

I don't expect North to score every game, but 1 try in the 6 nations, where he will have met his weakest opposition most likely, is a pretty average track record. I wonder if he will improve on that between now and the next lions tour. Cuthbert could even overtake North (who was majorly overhyped during the 6 nations) if he continues to improve.

North didnt have a great championship. Luckily still a young guy so plenty to work on. Scored 1 blinder and set up a peach for JD2. Shows promise for a lad who just had his 20th birthday last month and in his second season of rugby.

Only teenager to score more than ten international tries so far.

TJ wrote:

wales606 wrote:For starting wings can anyone really suggest that Bowe and North are not the best options at the moment.

Yes - Visser is better.

You guys will see but top scorer in the magners / rabo and voted player of the year when playing for a well beaten team? Not just a try or two extraq but scoring at twice the rate. He made all the other wingers he came up against look poor pretty much and IIRC outplayed north comprehensivly

Visser 13 tries
Cuthbert 10 tries

And Cuthbert was missing for the entire autumn and 6N - and topped it up with 3 international tries.

If we are going on try scoring record then Cuthbert and Bowe would be starting as they are the best international try scorers this season.

wales606 wrote:

TJ wrote:

wales606 wrote:For starting wings can anyone really suggest that Bowe and North are not the best options at the moment.

Yes - Visser is better.

You guys will see but top scorer in the magners / rabo and voted player of the year when playing for a well beaten team? Not just a try or two extraq but scoring at twice the rate. He made all the other wingers he came up against look poor pretty much and IIRC outplayed north comprehensivly

Visser 13 tries
Cuthbert 10 tries

And Cuthbert was missing for the entire autumn and 6N - and topped it up with 3 international tries.

If we are going on try scoring record then Cuthbert and Bowe would be starting as they are the best international try scorers this season.

Pretty impressive stats...

He also made a few blunders but more positives than negatives by a long shot.

I'm going to go with the Welsh fellas here and say right now, on merit I'd take Cuthbert the player who was probably in the 15 of the 6N vs the talented yet unproven at the top Visser. It's not detracting from Visser, just saying that the evidence puts Cuthbert ahead. Not Visser's fault that he couldn't play this 6N but Cuthbert did and Cuthbert impressed

Visser, Cuthbert, Bowe, North.....all pretty thunderous options.

I'd expect to see at least one speedy wee fella thrown into the mix as well. I guess Halfpenny will probably go as full back/wing cover, and Foden as well.

It all sounds very promising until you consider how good that Aussie backline will be:

9.Genia 10.Cooper 11.Mitchell 12.Barnes 13.AAC 14.JOC 15.Beale

We have some very good options forming for the Lions, but as a creative force we'll be up against an extraordinary group of players.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Visser, Cuthbert, Bowe, North.....all pretty thunderous options.

I'd expect to see at least one speedy wee fella thrown into the mix as well. I guess Halfpenny will probably go as full back/wing cover, and Foden as well.

It all sounds very promising until you consider how good that Aussie backline will be:

9.Genia 10.Cooper 11.Mitchell 12.Barnes 13.AAC 14.JOC 15.Beale

We have some very good options forming for the Lions, but as a creative force we'll be up against an extraordinary group of players.

three of those are likely injured. Expect the unexpected...!

Ioane will most definitely be on the wings for the aussies FES. I would also stick JOC at 12.

Sorry, I wasn't intending to speculate as to the likely Aussie XV this time next year. Obviously McCabe could be in there, as could Horne as well. RG, as you rightly say, Ioane will probably be involved too, and Barnes could easily be at 10 rather than 12, where JOC could slot in.

Either way, I'm only really making the point that on numerous Lions threads I've read a few posters being pretty pleased with how strong the Lions will be, listing all the talent we have. Fact is the Aussies for my money have the more creative and dangerous attacking options. If we are to triumph, it'll come down to the forwards, and even then, provided we can forge a back row capable of taking on Pocock in particular.

Given that Edinburgh were explicitly targeting the HEC, and that it is a step up in intensity and quality and variety of opponents from the Rabo, I'm surprised that more Scottish fans don't point to Visser's try-scoring record in that competition.

Oh wait. It's because it's perfectly ordinary. 4 tries. Same as Zebo, Trimble and a tonne of others. Is there a sepcific reason why he is can't score an impressive amount of tries in a tougher competition that won't apply to international level?

Sorry. Just stirring.

Its a valid point.

Visser looks very good but until he plays and delivers at the top level we dont know for sure. We will know a lot more after this tour

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Rennie, Denton and Blair were all absent. Godman was playing!

Nowhere near full strength.

To be honest if Visser was offered to Ulster on a free trade for Trimble, are you seriously saying you would turn the transfer down?

If the answer is yes you are a madman.

Guys, jesus! Talk about over defensive

Are Rennie, Denton and Blair all responsible for Vissers defensive positioning and tackling then? I don't see the relevance to be honest. Geoff is saying he defended poorly against Trimble on that occasion and was well marshalled when he had the ball. It's true, but it's just one game. You look at players over the course of the season. But the point is you can't play the 'Visser outplayed Bowe this season' card and then object when occassions where Visser has been outplayed by other players are pointed out. The fact Visser has been made to look a wee bit foolish by Trimble at times this season is neither here nor there. Visser is still a fine player when his team is on the front foot and I'm sure in the next year with Scotland he'll be given a chance to dispel the doubts surrounding his defensive and kicking game. I really hope he does come through to play for the Lions and I think he will.

I would obviously turn the transfer down, as our policy is to have homegrown players wherever possible. We have depth in the wings now so why would we use one of our NIQ spots in that position? But there isn't much between the two players.

For me, the Lions wings are North and Cuthbert. You'd have Bowe breathing down their necks and then it'll just depend on who is on form in the Autumn tests and Six Nations from Visser, Trimble, Ashton, Halfpenny, Lamont, Fitzgerald etc. etc.

Don Alfonso wrote:Given that Edinburgh were explicitly targeting the HEC, and that it is a step up in intensity and quality and variety of opponents from the Rabo, I'm surprised that more Scottish fans don't point to Visser's try-scoring record in that competition.

Oh wait. It's because it's perfectly ordinary. 4 tries. Same as Zebo, Trimble and a tonne of others. Is there a sepcific reason why he is can't score an impressive amount of tries in a tougher competition that won't apply to international level?

Sorry. Just stirring.

Nah, it's fine, Don, I understand your nerves - the biggest game of your lives awaits you! Good luck

Notch wrote:
Guys, jesus! Talk about over defensive

Oh, aye!

geoff998rugby wrote:Well Trimble has out classed Visser this year so where does that leave him ?

geoff998rugby wrote:The away game in the Pro12. Edinburgh were about 2 players short from their best XV. Trimble gave Visser a lesson in wing play.

geoff998rugby wrote:
On that day Trimble out played Visser ...end of story.

Yawn. Not defensive at all, no. My willy is bigger than your willy!!

Except it's true, he did struggle against Trimble in that one off game. Ulster in general made great gains down his wing. But it's a one off game. The point Geoff is making is that you can't use the argument that Visser outplayed such and such to champion him and then get worked up if it's pointed out he was outplayed by such and such!

It's all a bit silly. The next year of international rugby is what will decide whether he tours or not. Not whether he got the better of Tommy Bowe or was gotten the better of by Andrew Trimble or whatever else in the tin pot Pro12. We'll be looking carefully at players form in the Heineken Cup and international rugby over the next calendar year to see who deserves to tour. Like Geordie says, a year is a long time.

Notch wrote:Except it's true, he did struggle against Trimble in that one off game. Ulster in general made great gains down his wing. But it's a one off game. The point Geoff is making is that you can't use the argument that Visser outplayed such and such to champion him and then get worked up if it's pointed out he was outplayed by such and such!

It's all a bit silly. The next year of international rugby is what will decide whether he tours or not. Not whether he got the better of Tommy Bowe or was gotten the better of by Andrew Trimble or whatever else in the tin pot Pro12. We'll be looking carefully at players form in the Heineken Cup and international rugby over the next calendar year to see who deserves to tour. Like Geordie says, a year is a long time.

Just as it's true that he had Ulster poo-ing their collective pants every time he touched the ball in the semi-final! So, pls, Notch, park your high horse over there, we can continue this over a tomorrow in person

GeordieFalcon wrote:Visser seems to change his allegience by the season....dutch, then would have played for England when at the falcons now "for sure" he's a scot.

Anyway regardless...it will interesting to see his performances...

Can i say...all the discussions at the moment are meaningless...as a year in rugby is a LONG time, with both form...newbies coming through...and the unfortunate one...injury...

He has always refused to play for the dutch despite pressure to do so as he wants to play at the top level. as for

now "for sure" he's a scot.

this is what he actually said

"Having lived here for such a long time now, I've got to know the country and the people very well and I feel very much part of the country," said the 24-year-old.

"I feel really at home here and the people have been great.

"I would love to represent Scotland."

He has always appeared quite level headed and realistic about this Obviously wanting to play international rugby but not claiming any false patriotism. Plenty of players have done this over the years.

Right now Bowe is nailed on. He does so much more than just score trys and he scores lots of trys. I would love to see the assist stats for all the contenders as I'd say Bowe gives a scoring pass for every try gets.
As for the contenders right now I'd have North but I think he, Visser, Ashton and Cuthbert will keep improving and it could be two Welshmen on the wings by the time they get to Australia.

Personally, against the Aussie players and the sort of game they play I'd be more inclined to go for Halfpenny, Bowe & Kearney as the back 3.

alcoombe wrote:Personally, against the Aussie players and the sort of game they play I'd be more inclined to go for Halfpenny, Bowe & Kearney as the back 3.

Why? - North and Cuthbert are faster than Halfpenny

The Aussies don't have a huge backline so it will be to the Lions advantage to have big quick wingers to run at them.

wales606 wrote:

alcoombe wrote:Personally, against the Aussie players and the sort of game they play I'd be more inclined to go for Halfpenny, Bowe & Kearney as the back 3.

Why? - North and Cuthbert are faster than Halfpenny

The Aussies don't have a huge backline so it will be to the Lions advantage to have big quick wingers to run at them.

If that is the case it won't be by much and will be over a half-full pitch distance. Halfpenny is the better balanced and quicker accelerating runner, which I feel would be more profitable against the Aussies (backed up by 3 of your 4 tries against the Aussies in your last 2 meetings being scored by Shane & Halfpenny, the other by Priestland). Halfpenny is also the better defender (no tackles missed in the 6N, North & Cuthbert missed 2 each) and less likely to be beaten by back 3 players of Ioane's, AAc's, Beale's & JOC's stepping ability.

If we are basing making Tommy Bowe look silly as a yardstick, then Aled Brew should be a contender too and he has scored a couple of tries in the old Magners/Rabo

I would start North at the minute and probably Bowe. Because I think Kearney is nailed on at 15 though, I wouldn't be too surprised to see Halfpenny on one wing, possibly depending on who the flyhalf or goalkicker is.

alcoombe wrote:

wales606 wrote:

alcoombe wrote:Personally, against the Aussie players and the sort of game they play I'd be more inclined to go for Halfpenny, Bowe & Kearney as the back 3.

Why? - North and Cuthbert are faster than Halfpenny

The Aussies don't have a huge backline so it will be to the Lions advantage to have big quick wingers to run at them.

If that is the case it won't be by much and will be over a half-full pitch distance. Halfpenny is the better balanced and quicker accelerating runner, which I feel would be more profitable against the Aussies (backed up by 3 of your 4 tries against the Aussies in your last 2 meetings being scored by Shane & Halfpenny, the other by Priestland). Halfpenny is also the better defender (no tackles missed in the 6N, North & Cuthbert missed 2 each) and less likely to be beaten by back 3 players of Ioane's, AAc's, Beale's & JOC's stepping ability.

You make some good points. Halfpenny is a superb defender, but I think Cuthberts/North's ability to take on Aus physically in the midfield is more beneficial (just look at what North did to a small Irish backline)

Well, we'll see how things go on the tour this summer, but I just don't think the Aussie backs (apart from Cooper who may or may not still be in favour) are as susceptible to being physically overawed. They have to cope with similar Bok & Kiwi physicality in Super Rugby and the Tri-Nations (Rugby Championship) and do so pretty well. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't remember North making much more notable inroads than Halfpenny during the WC and December meetings.

Firstly, I think it's a bit premature to be talking a definite set of 3 or 4 wings for the Lions now, when we have a year of rugby ahead. This time a year ago the likes of Kearney and Bowe were in terrible form, Ashton was tearing it up and Cuthbert wasn't on anybody's radar!

It is fun though isn't it!

The way I see it is you have the following in the back three, barring injury:

Definites

North
Bowe
Kearney

In possession today but need to show best form in the next year to cement their place

Foden
Halfpenny
Cuthbert
Ashton

Need to show international form/bolters

Byrne
Visser
Hogg
Fitzgerald
Trimble
Zebo
Gilroy
Brown
Wade
May

That isn't a knock to Visser - just a recognition that he needs to show international form before anyone says he's a 'definite' - it's a step up that some players fail to make.

Once the squad is selected, I'd say test places are open to a number of players. It'll be judged on form in the months immediately before the tests, including the games on the tour itself - there are no definites for test places at this stage.

One person who hasn't been mentioned at all but who I think has a great chance of going is Luke Fitzgerald. He's been ignored by Ireland but has been getting back to his best for Leinster and has that mystical versatility that is adored by coaches on these tours.

Killer_B_6 wrote:Firstly, I think it's a bit premature to be talking a definite set of 3 or 4 wings for the Lions now, when we have a year of rugby ahead. This time a year ago the likes of Kearney and Bowe were in terrible form, Ashton was tearing it up and Cuthbert wasn't on anybody's radar!

It is fun though isn't it!

The way I see it is you have the following in the back three, barring injury:

Definites

North
Bowe
Kearney

In possession today but need to show best form in the next year to cement their place

Foden
Halfpenny
Cuthbert
Ashton

Need to show international form/bolters

Byrne
Visser
Hogg
Fitzgerald
Trimble
Zebo
Gilroy
Brown
Wade
May

That isn't a knock to Visser - just a recognition that he needs to show international form before anyone says he's a 'definite' - it's a step up that some players fail to make.

Once the squad is selected, I'd say test places are open to a number of players. It'll be judged on form in the months immediately before the tests, including the games on the tour itself - there are no definites for test places at this stage.

One person who hasn't been mentioned at all but who I think has a great chance of going is Luke Fitzgerald. He's been ignored by Ireland but has been getting back to his best for Leinster and has that mystical versatility that is adored by coaches on these tours.

Pretty much agree, although I think Hogg is more likely to travel than Ashton

We have some class backs. I genuinely believe we should get a series win v the Aussies. Defo better forwards and similar backs.

[quote="wales606"]

Killer_B_6 wrote:
Pretty much agree, although I think Hogg is more likely to travel than Ashton

I suppose I'm inherently biased as I'm an English fan who watches far more AP than watch Rabo.

I just think the contention that Ashton is massively out of form has been built up more on forums such as this than it is actually true.

I agree that he hasn't been in the vintage form of 2010/11 but:

- During the 6 Nations he barely saw the ball in space - he was still making good tracking runs but was unlucky (he was on Croft's shoulder when he made the terrible spill v Ireland, for example). He also put in some decent shifts in defence, notably against France.
- He's still scored 6 tries in 10 games in the AP this year. Not a terrible strike rate. He's also made c. 50m, 1 clean break and beaten 1 defender per game. Not amazing but not terrible attacking stats in a season which has been disrupted by injury, suspension and international duty.
- He was top scorer at the World Cup and in the 2011 6 Nations. This gives him a fair bit of 'credit' in the bank.

If he finds something similar to his 2010/11 form, he'll be on the plane imo.

leinsterbaby wrote:We have some class backs. I genuinely believe we should get a series win v the Aussies. Defo better forwards and similar backs.

I agree. The only danger is that they are a cohesive unit whereas we will be coming together for the first time (that's why I'd consider looking at 'units' where the competition is close).

The thing is we have is extraordinary depth. Look at this debate as to the depth we have on the wings. Look at the the depth in the centres. Look at the depth in the back row.

The competition should be fierce and hopefully players will raise their game rather than go 'off tour'.

For the love of God Ashton will definitely be going.

Why will he definitely be going? He has some stiff competition and is out of form. Plus it is a year away, who knows what will happen.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:For the love of God Ashton will definitely be going.

Why will Ashton go?

He is surely the only winger who hasn't scored a try in eight months who still plays international rugby.

For a start I can see a year into the future as well as the next man. Also Ashton was top scorer in the RWC despite Eng only getting to the QFs. In the 6N Farrell forgot he had a back 3 so poor old Splash never saw the ball (Flood will/has sort that). And Ashton is a class act, every bit as good as the other possibilities (apart maybe Bowe). You heard it here first.

Flood isnt going to SA he's injured.

Doesn't matter who he plays outside Ashton can't score. Looked good for a couple of games but all gone a bit pear shaped for him.

Be lucky to get a spot for England let alone the lions ..!

So many wummers on this site. Disappointing.

maestegmafia wrote:Flood isnt going to SA he's injured.

Doesn't matter who he plays outside Ashton can't score. Looked good for a couple of games but all gone a bit pear shaped for him.

Be lucky to get a spot for England let alone the lions ..!

So wrong not worth a decent reply

Gatland's on a hiding to nothing, Wales are off down to Oz on tour and he needs to see some solid performances from his potential "first choice" wingers, i.e. North & Cuthbert.

If neither of them perform, how is he:

A - going to tell them one or neither is his first choice for the Lions?

or

B - going to select one or both of them anyway and justify the selection?


Personally, I hope they both play without fear and do some serious damage, but if I were Gatland I'd be swerving the Lions appointment as a poisoned chalice, a la Graham Henry experience.

He has Wales on the up and up, if they fail in Oz he can blame Howley and if he dodges the Lions gig he can start again in the Autumn - at home, with everything to play for...

maestegmafia wrote:
Doesn't matter who he plays outside Ashton can't score.

Is North really doing much better in that regard? Only 3 tries in the WC (against Namibia & Fiji), just the 1 try in the 6N and not a single try in any competition (12 appearances) for Scarlets this season.

I wouldn't start either on current form, but then they've got a year to prove themselves.

PJHolybloke wrote:

He has Wales on the up and up, if they fail in Oz he can blame Howley and if he dodges the Lions gig he can start again in the Autumn - at home, with everything to play for...

Lions is next year...