Two new H Cup structures to be considered

First topic message reminder :

Following a meeting held in ERC offices today, the ERC has undertaken to examine two new proposals for change to the current comp structures.

The English and French have proposed a 20 team H Cup, 20 team Challenge Cup, and an undefined third tier comp.

The Irish, Welsh, Scottish and Italians have proposed a 32 team comp, comprising 10 teams from Pro 12 and Premiership, and 12 teams from the Top 14. There appears to be no other comp in their proposals. Some media reports say that this proposal was turned down by the French at a meeting last week in Paris, where there was also seeming agreement on the French proposal to move the completion of the comp to earlier in the season.

These proposals will be evaluated along with the current two competitions for discussion at the next meeting.

Each union has been asked to present its proposals/suggested re-structuring for the next meeting - apparently.

No discussions on commercial arrangements until the rugby structure is agreed.

Next meeting to be held in December. Still all to play for.

I remember the debacle well Kingshu. The SRU response was partly because they had already put all their eggs in a couple of baskets and had no choice but to re-nationlise the team.
The success of the HC has been the levelling of the playing field in terms of the acceptance of some Unions taking a short cut consolidating elite players into fewer franchise sides rather than clubs with the resultant financial incentive of lower structural cost that Unions then attempt to fund. Business will only ever be a charity for so long and hence the challenge from the English clubs and to a lesser extent the French.

It brings me no pleasure that that model has had its day and covers over the cracks in the way the Unions have been run over the last decade.

It will be fascinating to see in Ireland when the current senior generation retire what happens if ( as I suspect ) when the next generation of international players do not generate the same level of respect leading to less success in the R12 and HC. The IRFU will have nowhere to hide, just like the WRU now.

I don't think it wil be a problem for the IRFU, Leinster and Muster get some of the biggest crowds in Europe and even if the standard drops (like Munster now) there is still good support and I don't see Munster ever falling to lower than they are now (while rebuilding) Ulster in our poor seasons, were still getting decent crowds by the standard of the day.

When the current Generation retires, ok there will be No more BOD (a player that would be irreplaceable in most countries), POC and ROG, but we still have
Rob Kearney ERC palyer of the year 2012
Sean O'Brien ERC player of the year 2011
Tommy Bowe
Sexton

coming through also
Craig Gilroy
Simon Zebo
Iain Henderson
JJ Hanrahan
Patrick Jackson
Tiernan O'Halloran
Kieran Marmion
Eoin Griffin

all already there or about to come through and thats not including anyone from the Leinster acamady which is prob the best acamady in Europe.

The structures in the IRFU seam to be robust and the model is like a well oiled machine, a production line of talent, that we cannot even keep all of them in Ireland.

I'd doubt that the IRFU will have no where to hid, like you say, but will not want to hid and instead remain in the limelight basking in the appaulse of another H-cup coming to these shores.

Fair enough Kingshu!

Meanwhile the RFU seem completely blameless for no English clubs winning the thing and letting them fend for themselves - as it should be.

TJ wrote:fine - walk away then. We willplay a european cup without you while you look on from the sidelines. Its fairly likely to happen and we all know what would follow - in a year or two you would be begging to be allowed in again. Its happened in the past.

Bullies must be stood up to and the PRL are attempting to bully the rabo unions.

I can't think of any reason the French would want a compeition without the English. Not only would it deprive the tournament of singificant income but it would also rob the French of their natural allies - the only other nation where independent clubs hold the power - and leave them facing a load of unions. I believe there was a quote further up the thread making it clear that the French had no interest in a tournament without the English.

So, no English probably means no French. And no English and no French means RaboMkII and financial disaster for everyone in the Rabo with the possible exception of the Irish (who may lose many of their best players). Therefore if the French do stick with the English then the PRL and the French league hold almost all the cards.

TJ wrote:Thats my point. If the PRL insist on " its this or nothing" I expect them to be given short shrift. This has happened a couple of times before and who had to back down - the english.

The PRL want the major changes, they simply cannot attempt to use their muscle to get their way at the expense of others. Why must it change? No reason at all. the PRL want change and want to control the competition. Well its simply not going to happen the way they want as they do not have the votes and if they try to say - "its my way or the highway" then should be shown the door.

the alternative is that we end up with the whole of european rugby being run to suit not even the englsish clubs but he english club owners.

Simply pout why should the PRL do all the taking and the Rabo teams all the giving?

Where's that quote from? I'm assuming it's a quote as it's in quotation marks. Or are you not providing any evidence for your repeated comments?

Regarding TV rights. Unions sell the rights to broadcast their home games. They are not involved in selling rugby rights in their country. The IRFU have no control over the sale of English Premiership TV rights in Ireland. The RFU have no say in the sale of S15 TV rights in England (or the UK). If England left then the SRU could sell their home games to Sky. If England were still in the SRU could sell their TV rights to Sky. The fact the UK rights are dealt with as one makes no difference whatsoever.

If Angela Merkkel and the German Parliament really got fed up with propping up the Euro Zone and pressed for fiscal harmonisation, what could the Irish do?

They could stamp their feet and cry 'foul' all they liked but it is unlikely make any significant difference.

At least the Franglos are offering a sugar-coated pill in the form of more (not less) wonga for the Rabo.

greytiger wrote:If Angela Merkkel and the German Parliament really got fed up with propping up the Euro Zone and pressed for fiscal harmonisation, what could the Irish do?

They could stamp their feet and cry 'foul' all they liked but it is unlikely make any significant difference.

At least the Franglos are offering a sugar-coated pill in the form of more (not less) wonga for the Rabo.

Portnoy???? Is that you???

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:

greytiger wrote:If Angela Merkkel and the German Parliament really got fed up with propping up the Euro Zone and pressed for fiscal harmonisation, what could the Irish do?

They could stamp their feet and cry 'foul' all they liked but it is unlikely make any significant difference.

At least the Franglos are offering a sugar-coated pill in the form of more (not less) wonga for the Rabo.

Portnoy???? Is that you???

Father. I cannot tell a lie. I cut down that apple tree.

greytiger wrote:

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:

greytiger wrote:If Angela Merkkel and the German Parliament really got fed up with propping up the Euro Zone and pressed for fiscal harmonisation, what could the Irish do?

They could stamp their feet and cry 'foul' all they liked but it is unlikely make any significant difference.

At least the Franglos are offering a sugar-coated pill in the form of more (not less) wonga for the Rabo.

Portnoy???? Is that you???

Father. I cannot tell a lie. I cut down that apple tree.

why did you cut down the apple tree??? where we going to get our apples from now.

From the cherry tree. I wish Portnoy was here. He'd at least have cut the right one down .

The Cherries are producing the choicest English fruit.

Precisely. This is v2 and therefore all English fruit must be discouraged as they are proven to be poisonous.
It's an ERC regulation.

It seasm we're going round and round with, "you'll be left out" "no we won't" "France will see our side"" France will stick with us" bla blah blah

as say earlier, all the Unions agree that the H-cup will have all Unions in it, and all Unions have agreed on that (only thing they have agreed on so far).

Everyone will be involved, and no one will be kicked out.

SL keeps sending back his cherries as unfit or something

That, Kingshu is the umptieth statement of the bleedin' obvious that anyone with a brain cell has been repeating in all these threads.

But the passion - and that's at the heart of it - the passion that keeps the vibrancy of we fans interested.

That's why I keep on dipping in and out of the various conversations.

gregortree wrote:SL keeps sending back his cherries as unfit or something

Don't worry gregor. You've got rootstock twelve trees from a prime nursery on which to graft new stock.

At lease we have 12 trees. Last owner was a bit careless with them.
Makes it unlikley to accidentally cut them all down at once.
And we can use the 12 trees to train the younger cherry saplings.

Good luck with the orchard Gregor.

Best keep it fenced and the fruit netted or the crows will get 'em.

Kingshu wrote:It seasm we're going round and round with, "you'll be left out" "no we won't" "France will see our side"" France will stick with us" bla blah blah

as say earlier, all the Unions agree that the H-cup will have all Unions in it, and all Unions have agreed on that (only thing they have agreed on so far).

Everyone will be involved, and no one will be kicked out.

The French and English Unions can't just instruct their clubs as to what competitions they play in, so you need more than just the Unions' agreement.

Anyway TJ thinks the English may be left out, I'm just pointing out the French clubs are very unlikely to let that happen.

greytiger wrote:If Angela Merkkel and the German Parliament really got fed up with propping up the Euro Zone and pressed for fiscal harmonisation, what could the Irish do?

They could stamp their feet and cry 'foul' all they liked but it is unlikely make any significant difference.

At least the Franglos are offering a sugar-coated pill in the form of more (not less) wonga for the Rabo.

Stop paying off the debt of German bankers (they own Irish banks) instead of borrowing off them to pay their own debt.

profitius wrote:

greytiger wrote:If Angela Merkkel and the German Parliament really got fed up with propping up the Euro Zone and pressed for fiscal harmonisation, what could the Irish do?

They could stamp their feet and cry 'foul' all they liked but it is unlikely make any significant difference.

At least the Franglos are offering a sugar-coated pill in the form of more (not less) wonga for the Rabo.

Stop paying off the debt of German bankers (they own Irish banks) instead of borrowing off them to pay their own debt.

In your dreams.