Novak cheated a point enroute to winning the title

First topic message reminder :

For all gamesmanship thingy raised in this forum, let me bring a stat, I guess most of the forum members who watched the match between Del Po and Djoko are aware of it, Djoko cheated a point and the momentum from Del Boy.

Del Po was up a set and a break in 2nd set, in the mid of the 2nd set Del Po played a great drop shot, and it double bounced just before it hit the racket of Djoko, Djoko should be clearly aware of it , yet he claimed the point, poor Del Po could do nothing than carry on with the game, a good sportsmanship would be to either concede the point or go to the umpire and explain that he is unsure whether the ball was double bounce or not, but rather he kept the point enroute to win and the title.

In my view it just shows Nole is desperate for win and wanted to win somehow rather than genuinely beat the opponents out with the skill, I remember the same country men Tipsy concede the point several times in his career to the opponent when the point didn't belong to him, hope in the future Djoko learns something from his close friend. At the end of the day Nole know his win is a bit tainted and didn't come 100% genuine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvaAaDVBBa8

Link added above , it clearly shows DP was furious that nobody accounted the double bounce.

Danny_1982 wrote:

invisiblecoolers wrote:

Danny_1982 wrote:LuvSports - a very similar incident. I think Berdy would have know too, but didn't point it out.

IC - I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic?

Danny chill Bud, I am not a guy who call all these players a saint and some a cheat, my point is everybody makes mistake, its just silly to point every single thing what a player does to defame him, so this thread is just an example thread to explain to some fans boy/girls what they posting.

I did seriously like you post and hence posted my appreciation.

I've never really understood why fans do this (claim an opponent is the devil in disguise and their fave is angelic). All players make mistakes and a vast majority will take advantage of most things to get the W next to their name.

I tell you what, I'll go as far as saying that I like that Roger sat in the wrong chair. I like that Rafa tried and succeeded to stop the FO final in conditions that suited Novak. I even like that Novak called an MTO against Murray in the final in New York, and I dont mind it when Murray turns the air blue on occasions...

If tennis players didn't do everything they could to win it wouldn't be the ultra competitive wonderful sport that it is. Long may it continue in my opinion. The day players aren't trying to get into their opponents head with a bit of gamesmanship is a day I dread.

Danny you mistake my intentions. I don't paint Roger as a devil in disguise far from it. However his fans in particular have made a huge issue about ball bouncing, MTOs, time between points and etc. Not to mention poor sportsmanship of other players yelling out after hitting shots, all manner of criticisms of minor behaviors and quirks of other champions. I think this is more of a response to the federer double standard. I agree all the players make mistakes and none of them are perfect. And in fact my favorite player is connors so I love gamesmanship as well. But what I want to highlight is to what lengths fed fans will go to deny obvious photographic evidence of a fed mind game. Just admit the guy's poop smells like everyone else's and move on, I don't want him prosecuted and I don't care that much. But what I find instructive is that this line of criticism of gamesmanship is used continually for fed's rivals but federer again gets the benefit of the double standard when he does the same thing. I don't think Djokovic is an angel, I don't know any of these guys personally, my point in this whole thread is to again expose this gamesmanship double standard with fed, it is one of many such double standards cut in his favor by the fans and media.

Roger fans never do it, for that sake no fan do it, its some hatred community does it doesn't mean you have to do it as well Socal, imagine this you making me a poster of your caliber now, tommorrow I make somebody of this caliber and some day the complete forum will be mess.

You already drove several members out of the forum with your silly meaningless threads , we all came back thinking the forum would be better but you decided you will be like that only.

Most of your threads have been moaning rather than any sense.

Btw the next replay would be Amrit's in support of you, IMBL where r u?

Yes interestingly I drove you away but you couldn't stay away. You are the only person driven away from something who is always around to complain about being driven away.

socal1976 wrote:Yes interestingly I drove you away but you couldn't stay away. You are the only person driven away from something who is always around to complain about being driven away.

Truth hurts rite

I'm sorry I don't understand. Was the thread itself made just to wind someone else up? There only seems to be bickering

Seems to me the evidence suggests that both towels had Djoker's name on. The key question then is who stole Federer's towel? Was it done to seek to disrupt his preparation? I demand an investigation!

Danny_1982 wrote:

invisiblecoolers wrote:

Danny_1982 wrote:LuvSports - a very similar incident. I think Berdy would have know too, but didn't point it out.

IC - I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic?

Danny chill Bud, I am not a guy who call all these players a saint and some a cheat, my point is everybody makes mistake, its just silly to point every single thing what a player does to defame him, so this thread is just an example thread to explain to some fans boy/girls what they posting.

I did seriously like you post and hence posted my appreciation.

I've never really understood why fans do this (claim an opponent is the devil in disguise and their fave is angelic). All players make mistakes and a vast majority will take advantage of most things to get the W next to their name.

I tell you what, I'll go as far as saying that I like that Roger sat in the wrong chair. I like that Rafa tried and succeeded to stop the FO final in conditions that suited Novak. I even like that Novak called an MTO against Murray in the final in New York, and I dont mind it when Murray turns the air blue on occasions...

If tennis players didn't do everything they could to win it wouldn't be the ultra competitive wonderful sport that it is. Long may it continue in my opinion. The day players aren't trying to get into their opponents head with a bit of gamesmanship is a day I dread.

Exactly Danny, a bit of gamesmanship adds to the match, there was loads in the old days of Connors, McEnroe et al. Murray does seem to be lagging behind in the gamesmanship though. They all swear in various languages, his outbursts are more noticeable because they are in English. He needs to step it up

carrieg4 wrote: Murray does seem to be lagging behind in the gamesmanship though. They all swear in various languages, his outbursts are more noticeable because they are in English. He needs to step it up

It's only a matter of time before he starts hitting the ball at his opponent at the net. I'd bet that Lendl has already told him to do it, he's just trying to get psyched up to actually doing it!

HM Murdoch wrote:

carrieg4 wrote: Murray does seem to be lagging behind in the gamesmanship though. They all swear in various languages, his outbursts are more noticeable because they are in English. He needs to step it up

It's only a matter of time before he starts hitting the ball at his opponent at the net. I'd bet that Lendl has already told him to do it, he's just trying to get psyched up to actually doing it!

It could be a new feature for 2013!

Socal - my post wasn't aimed at you specifically. There are a number of posters on here who complain at players conduct when their own favourite is no different.

HM Murdoch wrote:

carrieg4 wrote: Murray does seem to be lagging behind in the gamesmanship though. They all swear in various languages, his outbursts are more noticeable because they are in English. He needs to step it up

It's only a matter of time before he starts hitting the ball at his opponent at the net. I'd bet that Lendl has already told him to do it, he's just trying to get psyched up to actually doing it!

What are you talking about Murray is an expert at gamesmanship! He has also often resorted to hitting the ball at his opponent. He even tried to hit Roger on the head at Wimbledon. Ha ha! though because Rogers reactions are far too quick he couldn't manage it. I don't think you've been watching or maybe you've been taken in by Neil Harman insisting that Murray is nice and all the other players are desperate for him to win?

Also swearing isn't gamesmanship its just ugly.

What is wrong with hitting a ball directly at an opponent HE? It's a useful tactic as its difficult to adjust in time, certainly more tough than moving either side. If the opponent doesn't like it, tough.

Is Murray a master at gamesmanship? I don't think so... But I wish he was. Anything that helps get the W next to the name and is within the rules is fine by me. I think you need to get off your moral horse, everyone employs a bit if gamesmanship - especially Rafa.

And I for one think fair play to him, I like that Rafa is so focussed on winning. No doubt you will deny it and try to paint Rafa as a wide eyed innocent angel... But guess what, none of them are... And that's just how I like it.

Danny_1982 wrote:What is wrong with hitting a ball directly at an opponent HE? It's a useful tactic as its difficult to adjust in time, certainly more tough than moving either side. If the opponent doesn't like it, tough.

Is Murray a master at gamesmanship? I don't think so... But I wish he was. Anything that helps get the W next to the name and is within the rules is fine by me. I think you need to get off your moral horse, everyone employs a bit if gamesmanship - especially Rafa.

And I for one think fair play to him, I like that Rafa is so focussed on winning. No doubt you will deny it and try to paint Rafa as a wide eyed innocent angel... But guess what, none of them are... And that's just how I like it.

Well put Danny

Carrie

get a room

Whatever LS.

Danny_1982 wrote:What is wrong with hitting a ball directly at an opponent HE? It's a useful tactic as its difficult to adjust in time, certainly more tough than moving either side. If the opponent doesn't like it, tough.

Is Murray a master at gamesmanship? I don't think so... But I wish he was. Anything that helps get the W next to the name and is within the rules is fine by me. I think you need to get off your moral horse, everyone employs a bit if gamesmanship - especially Rafa.

And I for one think fair play to him, I like that Rafa is so focussed on winning. No doubt you will deny it and try to paint Rafa as a wide eyed innocent angel... But guess what, none of them are... And that's just how I like it.

Maybe it's because you don't mind gamesmanship that you like Murray? Being focused on winning doesn't mean you resort to gamesmanship. The way I look at it gamesmanship is only used when a player can't win with backhands and forehands. I like to see matches decided by backhands and forehands and not by players exaggerating injuries, hitting balls directly at opponents, celebrating opponents errors, changing equipment to stall play at crucial points of the match etc. Even if these tactics work... and I admit they do sometimes to me it taints the victory. Personally if I'm playing it's fun to win with good play but I would get no pleasure at all from winning in any other way. Each to their own.

Oh and no I don't think Rafa (or Roger, or Novak) employ gamesmanship. My only criticism of any of these players on court behavior is Novak when he wins. I wish he would tone it down a bit. But that doesn't mean I think they are saints. They are all human and sometimes get upset or emotional but none of it looks to me as a deliberate "tactic".

objective as ever HE!

Only Murray of the top 4 display gamesmanship? Good grief...

LuvSports! wrote:objective as ever HE!

Says it all.

maybe you should change your name from a sophisticated, complex computer system that determines the trajectory of a ball that is based on a system of triangulation to something like.....

'out'? 'you cannot be serious' 'wrong'? :O

Ha ha! No... you may not like the result but IMHO it is always correct. I've never seen Federer, Nadal or Djokovic resort to some of the tactics I've seen Murray use.

hold that thought!

federer showed gamesmanship against murray in the shanghai semi final. I believe he stopped play to stem murrays momentum.
around 10mins https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSJ_aEBjsYE.

rafa for me has done this on numerous occasions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHELzd4sNPg

medical time outs against petzschner in the 4th set when 2-1 down i believe at wimby 2010, stopping their momentum and rafa comes out even faster and better than before.
I dont buy the fact he had a leg injury at that time in the match and it just happened to be at its worst point right then and miraculously disappeared for the rest of the match.
Look at his post match words and p, mcenroes comments on nadal.
http://anygivensurface.wordpress.com/2010/06/27/petzschner-unhappy-with-nadals-medical-time-out/

del potro for me is the worst with long challenges but i guess he isn't in the top 4.

i think novak too a mto when murray served for the US open title as well.
none of them are good but for me nadal is the worst

HE - you cannot be serious!

also you single out murray for 'not by players exaggerating injuries, hitting balls directly at opponents, celebrating opponents errors, changing equipment to stall play at crucial points of the match'.

Federer and nadal have gone straight at the opponent on numerous occasions. I just watched nadal soderling 09 and he did it 2 or 3 times, so that point is void.
isn;t a medical timeout to stall your opponents momentum exaggerating an injury??
If it is a big, important point sooo many times i have seen players do fist pumps or yell 'come on', deffo not just murray.
Please elaborate on the final bit, changing rackets to stall play at crucial moments.

I honestly cannot understand how biased you are against murray and towards nadal, please just take your head out of the sand and stop with all this murray pleonasm.

All these players are human and competitive and want to win, typically within the rules.

Most people I know try and find all potential areas to reduce their tax liability while filing their taxes.

There are many incidents like this. One I recall is, the Gonzalez-Blake incident at Beijing 2008.

Specifically, for such incidents, as technology becomes prevalent, and hawkeye challenge system exhibits, perhaps such incidents can be referred to a video umpire, without a lot of time being wasted in the process, to not stall the sport completely.

Respective fans need to be less emotional and enjoy the sport a bit more, with such nuances in place.

Imagine if there was no ultra slow-mo, human eye would have to reach a decision, which would include players, umpire, spectators, etc.

it doesn't matter hawkeye just needs to realise it isn't just murray and her beloved rafa is far from innocent of gamesmanship.

hawkeye wrote:

Danny_1982 wrote:What is wrong with hitting a ball directly at an opponent HE? It's a useful tactic as its difficult to adjust in time, certainly more tough than moving either side. If the opponent doesn't like it, tough.

Is Murray a master at gamesmanship? I don't think so... But I wish he was. Anything that helps get the W next to the name and is within the rules is fine by me. I think you need to get off your moral horse, everyone employs a bit if gamesmanship - especially Rafa.

And I for one think fair play to him, I like that Rafa is so focussed on winning. No doubt you will deny it and try to paint Rafa as a wide eyed innocent angel... But guess what, none of them are... And that's just how I like it.

Maybe it's because you don't mind gamesmanship that you like Murray? Being focused on winning doesn't mean you resort to gamesmanship. The way I look at it gamesmanship is only used when a player can't win with backhands and forehands. I like to see matches decided by backhands and forehands and not by players exaggerating injuries, hitting balls directly at opponents, celebrating opponents errors, changing equipment to stall play at crucial points of the match etc. Even if these tactics work... and I admit they do sometimes to me it taints the victory. Personally if I'm playing it's fun to win with good play but I would get no pleasure at all from winning in any other way. Each to their own.

Oh and no I don't think Rafa (or Roger, or Novak) employ gamesmanship. My only criticism of any of these players on court behavior is Novak when he wins. I wish he would tone it down a bit. But that doesn't mean I think they are saints. They are all human and sometimes get upset or emotional but none of it looks to me as a deliberate "tactic".

Actually well said HE , pretty well unbiased view.

Is it time for thread to discuss the ban on body serves as well?

BTW, how many posters watch doubles here? The Almagro-Berdych incident is repeated very frequently and palms are raised in apologies, if a body is hit.

If posters have experience with Hockey (Field or Ice), the sticks used can and are wielded as weapons almost brutally.

laverfan

I don't think you can "ban" body serves just like you can't "ban" kicking over someones water bottles or choosing to spend 5 minutes changing your wristband when serving at break point down in a GS semi. The way to deal with this sort of behavior IMO is for the audience to loudly boo and jeer!

However I do think the use of tennis racquets as weapons should be banned...

still not addressing what i said before about players other than murray using gamesmanship hawkeye....

Luvsports

I am against gamesmanship when it is used by any player not just Murray. As I have already said I don't think Federer, Nadal or Djokovic use gamesmanship as a tactic.

did you not see my examples above??? examples of all 3 of the big 4 with nadal being the worst!

Luvsports

I just don't agree with you about Federer, Nadal or Djokovic resorting to deliberate gamesmanship.

The racquet change I was referring to was the one where Murray had conceded two set points in the WTF semi's and got booed. If it makes you happy unlike the crowd I will give Murray the benefit of the doubt here. But I won't do so for that change of wrist band against Nadal when serving at break point down in the semi's of the US Open last year... that was obviously deliberate.

medical timeouts when you are losing and the other player is about to serve is not gamesmanship?
Going for a toilet break right before the opponent serves for the match.

how is that not gamesmanship. If you associated gamesmanship with any player, the most feedback, results, hits online would be related to rafa!

LuvSports - of course Rafa, Roger and Novak resort to gamesmanship. The examples you list are clear examples of it, and personally I have no issue with them whatsoever.

But Hawkeye has an agenda, and she will peruse it even when provided with clear evidence like you've provided. She is so blinkered with her desire to accuse Murray of any wrongdoing that all you can do is laugh.

She likes the British female players, so I can only assume she has a thing against Scottish? Maybe Hawkeye can clear that up by stating whether that is correct?

You may be right Danny. HE will not clear anything up though. What she will do is not respond to your direct questions then start up the same old nonsense on another thread. Feel free to prove me wrong HE

I've never heard HE say anything bad about Scottish people in general, so that's a disappointing accusation.

It's not an accusation, it's a question.

If Hawkeye says 'no that's not the case' I'm not going to accuse her of lying!

Let me just say that if HE takes that as an accusation then I apologise.

But you've already assumed she has a thing against the Scottish - for no reason.

I agree that there is no particular reason to assume that the anti-Murray thing is an anti Scots thing and I agree that Danny was asking a question rather than making an accusation. I would like to know the reason for such a passionate hatred though and am fed up of my direct queries being ignored. I can understand ambivalence towards a player but not the all encompassing hatred that is demonstrated. A greater understanding re the source of these extreme emotions would be helpful in understanding them.

If I were to ever to return to studying psychology (my degree, a looong time ago), then the psychology of internet forums would be my field of study.
There is certainly appears to be a lot of irrational hatred towards players. Is it genuine though? Does the internet allow an outlet for real emotions, or does it magnify them in a way that would otherwise not occur. Certainly the anonymity allows more extremes, not just our own anonymity, but that of the other people we address - we don't have to see them as 'real' people. Also we can just ignore arguments and questions in a way we couldn't during a conversation or in a traditional debating hall.
Does the internet environment create the emotions or just allow them to be more forcefully expressed with less fear of actual retribution?

I might have to move the rest of this thread to the General Discussion forum

Just to clarify. Murray is far from my favorite player because of his gamemanship (unlike others I prefer tennis to be decided by backhands and forehands), his ugly behavior on the court, his boring game and his arrogant personality. Also (and this is no fault of his) I dislike the bias press that he receives. Of course I don't "hate" him (why should I?) in fact I sometimes find myself feeling sorry for him because he appears so miserable... still he is not someone I would want to watch for entertainment.

As far as him being born in Scotland. Whats that got to do with it? Pfft! Unlike others I don't base who I enjoy watching based on something like that.

JuliusHMarx

I would be quite interested in doing a little research into why so many of us care about why millionaire sports stars win or lose a match. It doesn't affect us personally (unless we gamble) so rationally it makes little sense.

So just to quantify, his gamesmanship, ugly behaviour, boring game, arrogant personality. You also state he receives biased press coverage, and is miserable.... And you feel sorry for him. Oh, and it's not hatred....

.... I'd hate to hear you talk about someone you did hate.

hawkeye wrote:JuliusHMarx

I would be quite interested in doing a little research into why so many of us care about why millionaire sports stars win or lose a match. It doesn't affect us personally (unless we gamble) so rationally it makes little sense.

It's a vicarious thrill (or disappointment), of course, but even after the best of Henman's wins or the worst of his losses, once the match was over, I quickly forgot about it - within minutes usually, a hour at most. It doesn't, and shouldn't, have any real bearing on our 'real' lives or state of mind.

The point being that Murray has demonstrated a far lower degree of gamesmanship (by any objective standard) than any of the other three top players. This is a fact that I am happy to defend. I actually think that Murray needs to step up the gamesmanship a bit though rather than the others reducing it.

In addition, them being millionaire sportsmen is largely irrelevant. Once we accept them as people with the same hopes and desires as the rest of us they become like us in a way and we, in a very small way, share their success and failures. This is why I find some of the vitriolic hatred spouted against ANY of these players distasteful and unworthy of any posters.

hawkeye wrote:Luvsports

I just don't agree with you about Federer, Nadal or Djokovic resorting to deliberate gamesmanship.

The racquet change I was referring to was the one where Murray had conceded two set points in the WTF semi's and got booed. If it makes you happy unlike the crowd I will give Murray the benefit of the doubt here. But I won't do so for that change of wrist band against Nadal when serving at break point down in the semi's of the US Open last year... that was obviously deliberate.

HE... do you remember Nadal taking a toilet break at IW 2012 when Federer was serving for the match. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XclgoAIq_9I (1:36+) or the Nishikori Nadal hand washing incident, or the Federer v Murray in Shanghai rain drops incident.

There is a litany of such and quite a few well known players, without exception, are involved.

None of these players are saints, and never will be, no matter what their respective fans want them to be.

djoko 1.0 received a lot of stick from some players for showing gamesmanship e.g. robredo and monfils.