Marquez, Pacquiao and Mayweather - Where Next?

Lets start with Marquez seeing as he is the man of the moment. Everyone always said he'd have to knock manny out to get a win and last night he did that in spectacular style. He's a magnificent technician with bags of heart and that win should see him finally get the acclaim he deserves. I'm not one for ignoring the record books in favour of my own opinion as such, but it's not unfair to say JMM has now beaten Pacquiao 3 times. Some have already questioned how he could do that without illegal help but I feel that's harsh. He's always been a very accurate puncher, when he moved to lightweight he ko'd Diaz, Casamayor and Katsidas and let us not forget manny recklessly walked straight onto the punch. This was the biggest fight of JMM's career, a potential swan song against his greatest rival and he delivered with aplomb. I've always been a huge fan but I feel now he can take his rightful place among the best ever Mexican fighters. There are still big fights available to him - Bradley who he is quite capable of beating, or a Mayweather rematch - however I feel Floyd has the antidote to everything Marquez can offer stylistically, and although he's grown into the weight since their first fight 3 years ago I can't imagine the result being much different. Perhaps Bradley then retirement for JMM would be the most sensible option now that he's rid himself of the Pacquiao hoo-doo, although with Guerrero establishing himself at 147 that could be a mouth watering prospect for 5th may next year.

As for Manny? Ironically it has to be said he's looked better in 2012 in Marquez IV and Bradley than he did in 2011 vs Mosley and Marquez III. It was a bad KO but it happens in boxing if you neglect your defence. I don't think it should be the end for him - he looked sharp and still has something to offer. We can forget the Floyd fight whilst manny has back to back defeats. I suspect Arum will look to line up Marquez V, but I feel a return with Bradley would be Roaches preferred fight and the most likely path in 2013.

So what of Floyd? Lots of talk of him wanting two big bouts next year. I would not be surprised to hear of him making Marquez an offer on the back of last night knowing he holds the advantages - but as I said its a fight that few would want to see. The Pacquiao fight was the legacy sealer for Floyd, a fight he would always have won - but he let it slide and that black mark is something that'll always be held against him (manny too). Alvarez & Guerrero are the most likely opponents for him now, I suspect he'd prefer RG at welter than a big, powerful LMW like Alvarez having laboured a bit with Cotto, but personally I'd like to see him in with Canelo as I think it'd be a great test for both men at these respective stages of their careers.

These three great fighters don't have much time left, but in 2013 I'd like to see the following from them:

Marquez vs Guerrero
Pacquiao vs Bradley II
Mayweather vs Alvarez

I think both the knockdown an the knockout were due to Manny not having his feet on the floor to absorb the shot. The knockdown he was moving back and the knockout he appeared to tangle his foot and was standing on the toe. Think the combination of tangle footwork - him rushing in, not seeing the shot coming and it landing perfectly caused the knockout.

Marquez has gone big because he has gotten used to the weight - in each fight a gradual improvement in his condtion. Everyones running around pointing fingers - lets wait for some proof shall we?

Pacquaio needs Bradley 2 and to retire. Marquez vs Guerrero and Mayweather vs Alvarez with the winner of each facing each other. I think this is the time when all three should retire

That Said a Mayweather Martinez fight could make up alot of the ill will this farce with pacquaio has caused. Mayweather takes out Martinez and he jumps into the top 10 no questions asked. A real pickem and a big big big event.

The last couple of fights at welter and light middle have really opened things up now I think. Theres plenty of fights on the table.

JMMs performances over Pacquaio and his seemingly improved conditioning at welter I think has put him back in the frame for a rematch with Mayweather. It looked like Guerrero was favoured to be Mayweathers next opponent during the Mexican festival but JMM II might be worth a whole lot more now after that spectacular knock out. Despite the one sided nature of their last fight Im still a bit intrigued as to how JMM might fare in a rematch now.

Pacquaio now has almost certainly lost any hope of a 50/50 fight with Mayweather, and doesnt really have much to lose now so if he could beat a contender then a fight wth Mayweather could also be easier to make now. Wont be nearly as big as it could have been, but will still be a big fight.

Any of Bradley/Guerrero/Mayweather/Marquez/Pacquiao mixing it up with each other would be good contests. I think Mayweather will fancy moving back down to welter. Definately dont see him going near Martinez at middleweight no matter what now. Alvarez at 154 would make a huge fight but I still think its an outside bet. Alvarez v Trout is now also an interesting fight there.

Plus you have Brook/Alexander which could see another addition to the top welters.

Lots of options out there now so Im looking forward to some good fights next year.

Now Marquez has somehow grew into the weight, a rematch with floyd, at 147, would be a mouth watering prospect.

Marquez was huge last night.

TheMackemMawler wrote:Now Marquez has somehow grew into the weight, a rematch with floyd, at 147, would be a mouth watering prospect.

Marquez was huge last night.

I tend to disagree with this. Floyd is younger, taller, heavier, stronger, faster, has a longer reach and is more skilful, more accurate and better defensively. He holds every advantage over JMM - this was the case in the first fight and I don't think Marquez being better conditioned really alters things much. Their styles don't compliment each other, JMM can pick someone like manny off as he comes forward and tear it up when things get tasty, but against Floyd he'd have to go looking for him and would just get outboxed like before. As good a win as it was for JMM last night he didn't look particularly quick, and Floyd eats up smaller slower fighters for breakfast. Personally hope that one doesn't happen.

Great article, Sugar Boy.

I agree that Bradley would be an excellent fight for Marquez next year, one hundred percent. Mayweather, traditionally, is the 'go to' man for anyone wanting a massive pay day between 140 and 154 lb, but after last night's result Marquez can name his price and opponent right now.

I actually don't think Mayweather would be fussed about the Marquez rematch, to be honest. He's beaten him once at a canter and I imagine he'll be quite happy to remind everyone of that when asked about the possibility of a second encounter (and of course, I can fully understand why there will be a call for it in some quarters). As great and confident as Marquez will be feeling now, I'm pretty sure he'd prefer Bradley ahead of Floyd, too. Moreover, I reckon Bradley will be champing at the bit.

I suspect we might be kept waiting for Floyd's next move. Alvarez is looking set for a May 5 date and there's no way Mayweather will be willing to share the spotlight, and I'm not sure he'd fancy that fight anyway. Floyd always finds the going tougher at Light-Middle and Alvarez will be pushing 170 lb come fight night. Mayweather doesn't need that kind of aggrevation at almost thirty-six and with his mind, seemingly, less and less on boxing as each year passes.

Of the big, viable options right now I'd agree that Guerrero would make reasonable sense but I think Mayweather might do what he's been doing pretty much for the last few years; just bide his time and wait for someone to score a big win and hence become credible and marketable, even if they don't stay that way for a long time.

And so finally, Pacquiao. I can see why the debate about whether he should carry on or not is splitting opinion so much. Despite his recent woes, he'd still beat all but a small handful of Light-Welters and Welters out there, of that I'm sure. Malignaggi, Garcia, Matthyse, Brook, Alexander etc would all be very decent names on his record and fights I'd expect him to come through.

But meaning no disrespect to those guys and with the best will in the world, that'd be a step down for Manny in comparative terms, and I'm not sure if the motivation to be in that second tier of operators would be enough to keep him in the sport. He's a fighter in irreversable decline and with all sorts of things seemingly taking his focus away from fighting.

From a personal point of view, I'd probably prefer to see him call it a day now. But if he decided to carry on I wouldn't voice any serious displeasure as I can understand it. I just don't think he really needs boxing anymore, and I don't think he can hit those peaks which we saw a few years ago. In that respect, carrying on now means there could be a lot to lose and little to gain.

Chris, I'm really not sure, he looked so good in the fight in my view. Much better than he's looked in the past couple of years, so sharp focused and hungry.

I know it sounds a bit cliche, but when they were having the staredown during the final referee's insructions Manny had a look on his face of pure concentration, determination, hunger and desire.

I thought he really did look like the Manny of the Cotto fight and let's not forget, he was really close to knocking Marquez out and was performing far better than he did against Marquez the last time out.

The reason he lost was because, his opponent is a terrific counter puncher and the fact that he was really coming in hard looking to knock Marquez out.

Well as I've said already, Alex, I do think that Pacquiao was boxing well last night, but certainly not as well as he was when he was in his pomp. There seemed to be something indomitable about the Pacquiao of 2008 - 2010. Although he looked well set to improve on his showings against Marquez (III) and Bradley last night, I don't think it was the vintage Manny that we saw.

The knockout is a prime example. Now of course it was one hell of a shot from Marquez, but the fact is that Pacquiao rushed at him with his chin in the air, overextended in to his lunge and was duly flattened. That sort of mistake wasn't common with Pacquiao when he was at his best, and nor was he getting as easily tagged while backing up as he did for the first knockdown. Both excellent shots, but Marquez is no great puncher above 135 lb and I think there's evidence to suggest that maybe Manny can't digest a shot as well as he used to.

As I said, he's still one of the best Welters in the world and could certainly put a whooping on the pretenders a tier below, but why? The guy has been pound for pound number one and has carved out a place amongst the greats. Had Hatton returned immediately after the Pacquiao thrashing I think he could have been a dominant European champion and maybe picked up a so-called 'world title' somewhere along the line, but would that have been enough after a career of superstardom and Vegas headliners? Similar thing here with Manny, I think. This is the fourth fight on the trot where he's failed, as harsh as that may sound, to show the same form which made him the world's best at one stage.

That's just too long a period for me to believe that he hasn't declined significantly. He's certainly not the Pacquiao who blitzed Cotto anymore.

I honestly think that Manny looked fantastic, I think the mistakes happened not because of Manny not being right, but because of Marquez. Manny feeling he had to go for the knockout and also feeling as though he had him on the run led to Manny coming in at him like that. Also factor in Marquez fantastic countering.

As for the knockout itself, I think Manny would have been KO'ed back in 2009, 1999, 2006, 2032, 2201, it really doesn't matter, Marquez may not be known as a big one punch KO artist, but a guy who throws with such great technique and with considerable power, landing absolutely perfect without the opponent realising it's coming, thus not bracing himself properly for it, it's probably gonna end up with that being a knockout.

I think both the knockdown an the knockout were due to Manny not having his feet on the floor to absorb the shot

I think getting nailed by a massive, massive punch that he didn't see coming is the main and probably only reason.

coxy0001 wrote:

I think both the knockdown an the knockout were due to Manny not having his feet on the floor to absorb the shot

I think getting nailed by a massive, massive punch that he didn't see coming is the main and probably only reason.

I think both the knockdown an the knockout were due to Manny not having his feet on the floor to absorb the shot. The knockdown he was moving back and the knockout he appeared to tangle his foot and was standing on the toe. Think the combination of tangle footwork - him rushing in, not seeing the shot coming and it landing perfectly caused the knockout.

Above is the full quote. Although your tunnel vision explains most of the Love sacks you come out with.

Again, I'm not saying that Pacquiao looked poor. He was looking good, if quite open. I'm saying that he's a fighter who has declined from that remarkable peak he hit about three years ago. Perhaps you think Marquez could have done that to a 2009 version of Pacquiao, but it's simply my contention that he couldn't have done.

My basic argument is that Pacquiao took his career to its greatest heights by earning acclaim as the greatest fighter on the planet. He can have absolutely zero claim of any kind to that title now. Not even close, in fact. Whether people want to rate him as a greater fighter across history than Mayweather and Marquez is open to debate, perhaps, but right now there's no debate that he's a lesser fighter than the pair of them.

The 2008 version of Pacquiao was capable of beating Marquez perfectly legitimately, as their second fight demonstrated. On the basis of their last two fights, that's probably beyond him now. Before last night it'd had been God knows how long since Pacquiao had hit the deck, if we discount the silly call in the Mosley fight - and this has been despite taking on Marquez himself as well as the likes of Hatton, Cotto, Bradley etc. Yet last night, he was put over heavily twice by a man who'd previously been unable to deck him in thirty-six rounds.

I just can't see how anyone could argue that he's not a lesser fighter and / or past his best. Not shot, not washed up, not totally finished, but still past his best all the same.

Understand what you're saying Chris, but tend to disagree a bit.

For me he was starting to pull away in the fight following the knockdown and was landing some pretty big shots. He was actually outlanding Marquez in a pretty significant way, something he wasn't able to consistently do and string rounds together against him in the past.

His hand and foot speed looked back to what it was around the time of the Cotto fight. Both men looked seriously sharp but Pacmans speed was (as was the case 3 years ago) insane.

I think the main reason he lost is that they spent a fair bit of time trying to get Marquez to abandon his counter punching approach and were setting themselves up for the knockout. Manny had had a great round and simply got over eager in his approach and got nailed.

It's all ifs and buts, but if Pac had avoided the right hand he may have gone on to beat Marquez by a margin of a few rounds and actually come out of the fight with no questions about who won. From memory I gave Marquez the 10-8, one 10-10 and the other 4 (was just about to write down the score when wwwwwwwammmmo happened) for Pacquiao.

Yes, all ifs and buts.. just saying it wasn't like he looked poor. He was outboxing JMM, stretching in to a lead and then got caught.

coxy0001 wrote:Yes, all ifs and buts.. just saying it wasn't like he looked poor.

And yet again (!), I'll stress that I never said that either.

He outboxed Marquez for a couple of rounds after the third last night, yes. He also outboxed him for periods in their first two fights as well. There has always been ebb and flow when these two meet and I'm sure that last night's encounter would have been the same had it gone past the sixth. The fact that it didn't, however, means it's perfectly valid to wonder if Pacquiao's ability to take shots has waned slightly. As I've already said, there seemed to be an indomitable spirit about Pacquiao when at his best. He's fought opposition of the highest rank time and time again without being put over. Now Marquez, having failed to do so in thirty-six previous rounds, has him over twice in half a dozen stanzas. I don't think it's a coincidence. Pacquiao's defence has never been his USP but he wasn't getting tagged as easily three years ago as he was last night.

Also, it seems to be lost on some that I'm not basing my judgement on Pacquiao's current standing solely on last night. There's been a gradual decline since the Margarito fight two years ago; could Mosley have gone the full twelve and emerged from the fight with so few wounds to tell the story had the fought like that against a 2009 Pacquiao? Even allowing for the slightly questionable decision (which I still maintain was not the blatant robbery most others claim), does anyone think that Bradley, fighting as gung-ho and open as we saw, could have seen the final bell against Manny at his best or even hoped to have made it anything approaching close on the scorecards after twelve rounds had he been faced with a peak Pacquiao?

To me, the answer is a resounding 'no' to both.

I'm not disputing that there's a valid claim for Pacquiao to continue his career. He's still a cut above most guys out there and there's still big money to be made for whoever gets him as an opponent. I'll put it in these simplest of terms, if everyone continues to insist on missing my point or taking it out of context; Pacquiao was once the world's greatest fighter. Now he's not even close and it's looking unlikely he'll ever challenge for that status again. When you've sat at the top of the pile, why go back to the rung just below that, especially when you've got nothing left to prove and have so many other elements forcing your focus away from boxing, namely his career in politics?

I think the seemingly gradual decline has been down to his opponents and Manny just not being as sharp and underestimating his opponents, Manny doesn't know and probably will never know how to cut off the ring successfully, that's why Marquez and Mosley were able to circle around the ring and survive, the former manging to throw punches to make it a hard fought affair.

Bradley went in with a very good plan and no doubt he didn't get ripped apart as would have been the case with the same Manny that fought Cotto, but I think he massively underestimated Bradley and felt he was winning so never pushed further, the Manny that we saw was not the passive, oh, I'll just nick this round, type Manny. He was the same fired up Manny that we saw against Cotto, the only problem was that his gameplan involved him taking risks, which I saw as necessary, and he was winning in my eyes at least, but then Marquez literally just came out with "that shot". Anything can happen when these two fight, Manny could fight Marquez again and win on points, or probably knock him out with it going the same way just never walking into that punch, just because he lost doesn't mean he wasn't as good as he was in 2009 in my view. I think he has been putting on lacksadaisical performances due to the opposition not really testing him to the max and him underestimating his opponents. Tonight we saw the real Manny, however, that Manny is still human and can still get beat.

My view on it anywho.

Mayweather against Pacquiao was the fight evryone wanted to see so it now that Marquez knocked Pacquiao out it would make sense for Marquez to fight Mayweather.

Gordy wrote:Mayweather against Pacquiao was the fight evryone wanted to see so it now that Marquez knocked Pacquiao out it would make sense for Marquez to fight Mayweather.

They've already fought, Mayweather shut him out for 12 rounds. Do you really think Marquez with a few more muscles but an extra 3 years on the clock will have any more success?

Massive Marquez fan and respect his talents....but something doesnt sit right with me about this fight.

Where did this one punch power come from?! Pacquiao has been hit on the chin by big hitters for as long as i've watched him and he has a GRANITE chin. Dont think many will argue with that.

Marquez came in with the body of a 25 year old body builder. As much as i respect the man and admire his skills, having watched the sport for many years and seeing him at his best, i find it very hard to belive that this win is above board.

Yes, Manny jumped in and yes, Marquez is arguably the best counter puncher of his generation, but, Manny ALWAYS jumps in and has been caught with big punches and just walked through them.

For Marquez to drop him early and then send him to the moon with the KO punch.....nah, not for me, not at all.