Saracens vs Munster

First topic message reminder :

Date: Sunday, December 16
Kick-off: 15:00
Venue: Vicarage Road
Referee: Pascal Gauzere (France)
Assistant referees: Jérôme Garces (France), Jean-Luc Rebollal (France)
Television match official: Gérard Borreani (France)

Munsters selection hinges on two facts, one the selection of O'Gara at ten and two, not having Keith Earls available. Earls went through the saracens defence last week like a hot knife through butter. He and Downey had a free reign over Farrell and Barritt. Problem was that O'Gara rarely recognised this advantage, kicking away too much attacking ball.

Saracens have moved Owen Farrell from outside centre to fly-half for their Heineken Cup Pool rematch with Munster at Vicarage Road on Sunday.

Both teams are level on match points in Pool 1 and in team news ahead of what will be a near sell-out crowd in Watford, Farrell starts the game at ten, with Joel Tomkins, David Strettle and George Kruis all coming into the starting line-up from the side that faced Munster last weekend.


The teams:

Saracens: 15 Alex Goode, 14 Chris Ashton, 13 Joel Tomkins, 12 Brad Barritt, 11 David Strettle, 10 Owen Farrell, 9 Richard Wigglesworth, 8 Kelly Brown, 7 Will Fraser, 6 George Kruis, 5 Mouritz Botha, 4 Steve Borthwick (capt), 3 Matt Stevens, 2 Schalk Brits, 1 Rhys Gill.
Replacements: 16 John Smit, 17 Mako Vunipola, 18 Petrus du Plessis, 19 Eoin Sheriff, 20 Ernst Joubert, 21 Neil de Kock, 22 Charlie Hodgson, 23 Chris Wyles.

Munster: 15 Felix Jones, 14 Doug Howlett (capt), 13 Casey Laulala, 12 James Downey, 11 Simon Zebo, 10 Ronan O'Gara, 9 Conor Murray, 8 James Coughlan, 7 Peter O'Mahony, 6 Dave O'Callaghan, 5 Donnacha Ryan, 4 Donncha O'Callaghan, 3 BJ Botha, 2 Mike Sherry, 1 David Kilcoyne.
Replacements: 16 Damien Varley, 17 Wian du Preez, 18 Stephen Archer, 19 Billy Holland, 20 Peter Butler, 21 Duncan Williams, 22 Ian Keatley, 23 Luk O'Dea.

valjester wrote:

Thomond wrote:He kicked well, we offered nothing in the backs, we had an extra man for ten minutes and we went backwards he stands too flat offers no running threat and inhibits out backs.

God Thomond, if anything he stands much too deep, there were times this week and last, when Murray had to fling the ball back about 20 yards to find Rog standing way back in the pocket.

Was going to say he needs to stand flatter then decided to change it, obviously had a bit of a brainfart. He stands far too deep, and doesn't attack with any sort of speed at all.

Artful_Dodger wrote:O'Gara actually had an excellent game.

Kicking well and playing well are not the same thing. He is a ball and chain to those outside him.

Thomond wrote:

valjester wrote:

Thomond wrote:He kicked well, we offered nothing in the backs, we had an extra man for ten minutes and we went backwards he stands too flat offers no running threat and inhibits out backs.

God Thomond, if anything he stands much too deep, there were times this week and last, when Murray had to fling the ball back about 20 yards to find Rog standing way back in the pocket.

Was going to say he needs to stand flatter then decided to change it, obviously had a bit of a brainfart. He stands far too deep, and doesn't attack with any sort of speed at all.

Yep, it has been very noticeable in the last two matches before this that Munster had been using Earls at 10 an awful lot and he was coming on to the ball extremely flat and making things happen, I think you missed him an awful lot today.

You also missed Kilcoyne a lot, Munster dont have a lot of carriers and removing one doesn't help at all, especially when the alternative is bringing Horan on the bench.

Well done Saracens, it's been an epic series.

Did a Munster on munster

Good game to watch, think Munster were lucky to get a LBP IMO. Lived off scraps and was more down to Sarries poor attacking display and accuracy in the 22. Sarries dominated scrum and the majority of set piece and the break down was even the forwards really won that game for them. Thought ROG played well despite the criticism but havent seen enough of Munster to comment on how he might be impeding Penney's attempt to have a wider attacking game which does seem highly plausible. Good Sunday afternoon watch and both should make it to the QF's I think.

ROG has been a burden to the Munster backline for a very long time. Without a world class pack ROG was nothing, he never realised that. I think he is one of the more overrated players in Irish history. Very good at what he did but we had enough talent outside him and a suitable gameplan to mask some of his deficiencies.

David Wallace could have been one of the best 7s in the World if he didn't have to look after ROG in my opinion

Thomond wrote:ROG has been a burden to the Munster backline for a very long time. Without a world class pack ROG was nothing, he never realised that. I think he is one of the more overrated players in Irish history. Very good at what he did but we had enough talent outside him and a suitable gameplan to mask some of his deficiencies.

David Wallace could have been one of the best 7s in the World if he didn't have to look after ROG in my opinion

Ara, I'd still say that Wally was one of the best 7s in the world, but it was a bit ridiculous that he spent his career having to tackle for two people.

He was imagine how good he could have been though.

Thomond wrote:He was imagine how good he could have been though.

The important thing for Irish rugby is that we aren't having this discussion next year. The annoying thing is that lots of people seem to think that ROG is still playing at an acceptable level. All the comments last week were about his impeccable place kicking and 'perfect 10' crap, but nobody mentions the fact that it was his stupidity that led to Saracens getting a bonus point which could prove crucial in winning the group. Every match he has played this season has seen him make one big mistake, which is really not acceptable.

Never been the biggest ROG fan good kicker, but little else and his defence is lacking is well. Behind a big pack he does the job but the Munster one is not as good as it was, still tenacious but nowhere near as dominant.

David Wallace is my favourite 7 to play rugby ever. I think he has been sorely missed for both Munster and Ireland.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:David Wallace is my favourite 7 to play rugby ever. I think he has been sorely missed for both Munster and Ireland.

Yes, see Munster going 2o something phases without actually going forward. Somehow I don't think Wally would have allowed that to happen.

Yes, see Munster going 2o something phases without actually going forward. Somehow I don't think Wally would have allowed that to happen.

To be fair the Sarries defence is reknownedly brutal. Not quite at its best at the minute without Burger and today they had a lock at 6 but the way they hunt the opposition is suppressive. Last weekend it all went to hell but that defence is what they've based their recent success on (it does work a lot better when Farrell isn't at 13).

I was at the game, which Sarries deserved the win in. But, and I'm not a Sarries hater, the way the ground played their irredeemably awful Stand Up song every bloody break in play and specifically used it to drown out Munster fans (of whom there were more than Saracens fans) was disgraceful. As a neutral it made me cheer for Munster and I think it's one of the things I've seen that was most offensive to the spirit of rugby. It ruined my experience of what was a pretty good game otherwise.

Watched this i hope for the sake of Munster and Ireland that Munster don't make it out of the group. THen Hopefully he will get the message and ROG will retire legend that he is. He should of quit after the world cup. I feel sorry for Keatley.

Some of the criticism of ROG is way over the top. It was lashing down with rain and people here wanted him to have running back moves. He played the conditions as best as you could expect with some brilliant torpedo kicks and some great up and unders.

We lost because we didnt have enough ball carriers and the Sarried defence was brilliant. Having said all that I do feel sorry for Keatley who has been impressive every game this year.

I thought the rain made a big impact on the match. It played right into Saracens hands.

That was weird. I have never seen music being piped through to drown out away fans singing.

If you are looking for a reason why no one likes them.... absolutely disgraceful sportsmanship.

Well done Munster BTW. 10 points should see you through and I hope you make it.

Saracens and their business model is a strange animal Boyne. They do like the dancing girls, promos and American-style razzmatazz.

valjester wrote:

Thomond wrote:He was imagine how good he could have been though.

The important thing for Irish rugby is that we aren't having this discussion next year. The annoying thing is that lots of people seem to think that ROG is still playing at an acceptable level. All the comments last week were about his impeccable place kicking and 'perfect 10' crap, but nobody mentions the fact that it was his stupidity that led to Saracens getting a bonus point which could prove crucial in winning the group. Every match he has played this season has seen him make one big mistake, which is really not acceptable.

Couldn't agree more

Good win for Saracens but they need to be worried about the amount of possession that they had and the lack of points.

They really can't just rely on Farrel kicking everything as he's proved these last two games that he is only a 75% kicker. Need to work out an attacking game that will trouble top sides and a way to take points other then in multiples of three.

He actually showed some nice passing skills in that game when he played by instinct, the problem was you could almost see him thinking too much and then just going for the kick or telegraphed pass.

A 9 who is actually a threat to defences would help as well. Micky Young maybe?

If he has a 75% rate its not bad.... how many kickers have a better rate.... maybe a handful???

In SR this season Peter Grant led the way with 85% but he was quite far ahead... and he doesn't take long range kicks (responsibility goes to Joe Pietersen).

You want something along the lines of 5 in 6 but the guy is still 21 still learning his craft. Munster away is a difficult place to kick if I recall.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:David Wallace is my favourite 7 to play rugby ever. I think he has been sorely missed for both Munster and Ireland.

Couldn't agree more- a brilliant brilliant player, no matter where he played along the backrow. Never took a backwards step and did his job to the highest standard if understated. In the WC warm-up game against England where he damaged his knee ligaments, the play leading up to it was all the work of one of his typical surging runs which we all loved him for. Really really missed.

A 9 who is actually a threat to defences would help as well. Micky Young maybe?

Mickey Young looks likely to leave Tigers this summer. Set to be replaced by Perpignan 9/10 David Mele.

I think he would do well at Sarries, he'd be a good foil to Wigglesworth and isn't their Saffa 9 retiring this season anyhows?

What's Mele like? Tigers were pretty good with their last French 9...

Fa0019, 75% isn't too bad but that was just a guess his actual kicking stats are probably a fair bit worse. And that's compounded by the fact kicking is his only real strength, he's pretty similar to M Steyn in his gameplan.

What's Mele like? Tigers were pretty good with their last French 9...

Fairly similar which I assume is the attraction. Mid twenties, versatile play maker, good basics, reliable points kicker, got HEC experience but not a star type that will be grabbing a call up (though that changed for Dupuy when he came).

Is assume he will be there to guide the younger scrum halfs a little and force them to imrpove their skills. Could be a very good foil for Ford and with neither Cornwall or Bowden impressing will cover 10. Bowden will be seen as a centre only (currently very much a second choice centre).

Young could work well at Sarries. Could also be a good addition for Bath with Classens maybe heading home.

Yea I guess Sarries do have the youngster Spencer to bring on as well. Bath could potentially out bid them as well.

Sounds like a good purchase then for Tigers then, still very quiet for Quins, but then I get the feeling the coaches are more interested in keeping currant players then bringing in new guys. We'll probably go and pillage the Championship as standard.

Currently a lot of the talk around Tigers is around the contract renewals of Salvi, Mafi, Ford and Parling. The Mele thing was obviously a reaction to discussions with Young.

profitius wrote:I thought the rain made a big impact on the match. It played right into Saracens hands.

I hope that's a tongue in cheek comment!!



However, if you're serious...



I didn't see the game but from what I've read it was bad sportsmanship from Sarries using the PA to drown out the Munster fams with that awful Stand Up for the Saracens ditty. When we played them at Wembley a couple of seasons back we left early because of it. Absolutely mind numbing.

Sarries need to be promoting the game, not giving people a reason to leave the ground

As I said earlier I went from being neutral/in favour slightly of Sarries as they are English to supporting Munster fully because I found their PA tactics so obnoxious

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

valjester wrote:

Thomond wrote:He was imagine how good he could have been though.

The important thing for Irish rugby is that we aren't having this discussion next year. The annoying thing is that lots of people seem to think that ROG is still playing at an acceptable level. All the comments last week were about his impeccable place kicking and 'perfect 10' crap, but nobody mentions the fact that it was his stupidity that led to Saracens getting a bonus point which could prove crucial in winning the group. Every match he has played this season has seen him make one big mistake, which is really not acceptable.

Couldn't agree more

On the other hand if ROG hadnt played in both games we wouldnt have got close to near 5 points out of them Keatley is just not good enough and would not have been able to control the game in large parts as ROG did. But sure if you like losing keep it up

ChequeredJersey wrote:As I said earlier I went from being neutral/in favour slightly of Sarries as they are English to supporting Munster fully because I found their PA tactics so obnoxious

100% agreed.

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:

profitius wrote:I thought the rain made a big impact on the match. It played right into Saracens hands.

I hope that's a tongue in cheek comment!!



However, if you're serious...

I am serious. Munster have been diabolical in the rain this season. The Racing Metro match where they did everything in their power to lose and more recently losing at home to the Scarlets in the rain. Munster were 1/6 to win that match.

Munster fans may go through a rough patch with Keatley there but they have to be willing to stick it through, ROG has been in decline for a while now.

We haven't orechestrated a single try through backplay with ROG at the helm in the HC this year (intercept v Sarries, Zebo's try was broken play began by one named Keatley). Sunday wasn't a day to be flinging it out all day but the fact was we couldn't do it be cause we weren't able to with an outhalf who stands so deep and offers no running threat. I'm beginning to think we vastly overrated him, he couldn't do two of the four key componets to outhalf play throughout his career, run or tackle.

We need ROG if we want to go anywhere in the next while.

Hanrahan needs to be fast tracked. We know he's a special talent, so why is he being held back.

I think you should ask the IRFU

I watched the Munster Saracens game last night- good game with some very good individual performances. Music over the PA was a let down to the game of Rugby Union. Poor show.

Personal highlight was O'Gara's cheeky little shoulder barge on Fraser as they went into the tunnel!

bluestonevedder wrote:I watched the Munster Saracens game last night- good game with some very good individual performances. Music over the PA was a let down to the game of Rugby Union. Poor show.

Personal highlight was O'Gara's cheeky little shoulder barge on Fraser as they went into the tunnel!

It's awful isn't it. I went to a couple of Sarries games this year and if I hear the moronic 'The big bad wolf!' one more time I will hurt somebody. If your fans can't sing loud enough, you shouldn't try and mask it with the PA.

Thomond wrote:Munster fans may go through a rough patch with Keatley there but they have to be willing to stick it through, ROG has been in decline for a while now.

We haven't orechestrated a single try through backplay with ROG at the helm in the HC this year (intercept v Sarries, Zebo's try was broken play began by one named Keatley). Sunday wasn't a day to be flinging it out all day but the fact was we couldn't do it be cause we weren't able to with an outhalf who stands so deep and offers no running threat. I'm beginning to think we vastly overrated him, he couldn't do two of the four key componets to outhalf play throughout his career, run or tackle.

We need ROG if we want to go anywhere in the next while.

Munster scored lots of tries against similar opposition to Edinburgh in the Rabo.

Saracens have by far the best defence in the English Premiership. Quins only managed to score one try against them and they are one of the top try scorers in the Premiership.

Hating O'Gara as much as you do isn't going to turn Keatley into an outhalf good enough to be Munster's starting outhalf. He has been continually ignored by both Penney & Ireland in case you haven't noticed over the years (Sexton was playing AIL when he got picked over Humphreys & Keatley to play for the Wolfhounds).

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Hanrahan needs to be fast tracked. We know he's a special talent, so why is he being held back.

Seems to be doing exams lately, so they may be giving him time to finish college so that could be why he isn't fastracked. From all accounts as well, he was poor in the last B&I Cup game.

(Bit of character - on twitter, he is offering a date with Felix Jones to any girls doing their leaving cert who get over 600 pts as an incentive to study hard - lots of young wans looking for a retweet while they are studying!).

Sin é, I don't hate O'Gara I'm just not blinded to the obvious facts. Is Keatley goign to be as good as him? Probably not. Is he better than ROG at the moment? For the game Munster want to play and in general yes he is.


Some guys mature at an older age, Keatley is playing better than ROG at the moment and deserves to be involved in the team. ROG is not the guy to bring this team forward and hasn't been for some time.