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Better than the Ashes

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Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler
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Post by sirfredperry Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:56 pm

Was England's win in India better than their 3-1 win over Australia in 2010/11 ? For long-suffering England fans an Ashes win like the last one - three innings victories away from home - was the best feeling ever. So it's unlikely that this latest win in India - itself a tremendous achievement - will FEEL as good.
But perhaps further analysis could show that the India victory was the greater triumph. In Australia, England, playing very well, were up against a comparatively-poor Australian team who -Perth aside - played badly.
OK, India have not been great in this last series. But England lost the toss in each of the first three matches and yet beat the Indians at their own game through sheer hard work and perseverance - and after going one down, too .
The fact that better sides than England had come away empty handed from India before shows just how well Cook's chaps have done. I'd rate this as better than the Ashes 10/11

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Post by gboycottnut Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:13 pm

sirfredperry wrote:Was England's win in India better than their 3-1 win over Australia in 2010/11 ? For long-suffering England fans an Ashes win like the last one - three innings victories away from home - was the best feeling ever. So it's unlikely that this latest win in India - itself a tremendous achievement - will FEEL as good.
But perhaps further analysis could show that the India victory was the greater triumph. In Australia, England, playing very well, were up against a comparatively-poor Australian team who -Perth aside - played badly.
OK, India have not been great in this last series. But England lost the toss in each of the first three matches and yet beat the Indians at their own game through sheer hard work and perseverance - and after going one down, too .
The fact that better sides than England had come away empty handed from India before shows just how well Cook's chaps have done. I'd rate this as better than the Ashes 10/11

The Ashes 3-1 triumph was the better achievement of the two, as against Australia, we had to face better pace bowlers (like Mitchell Johnson, Rhino Harris, Sid Vicious) than what India could send out against us (a very unfit Zaheer Khan and a misfiring unthreatening Ishant Sharma). Also Australia had a more solid looking batting lineup than what India had against us with players like Watson, Katich and Hussey as opposed to 2 great batsmen in the Indian team in Sehwag and Sachin Tendulkar who look like they are well past their great best of their prime years and are also totally out of batting form).

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Post by sirfredperry Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:46 pm

Gbnut - ta for response. Not sure the Aussie bowling in 2010/11 was all that threatening. Perhaps another thing to consider. Was the 2012 India triumph as good an achivement than Gower's 84/85 win in India ? Could be argued that India were stronger then than now.

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Post by Stella Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:50 pm

India are an average team but considering we went 1 down, this makes it a great effort.

I think we peaked in Australia last time out, making it an easy win, albeit against a decent Aussie side.
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Post by gboycottnut Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:53 pm

sirfredperry wrote:Gbnut - ta for response. Not sure the Aussie bowling in 2010/11 was all that threatening. Perhaps another thing to consider. Was the 2012 India triumph as good an achivement than Gower's 84/85 win in India ? Could be argued that India were stronger then than now.

Well to the question of which was greater the 2012 India triumph or the 1985 one. Well I believe that the 1985 one was greater as England back then had a very ordinary side which included the likes of Chris Cowdrey as Ian Botham's replacement and Graeme Fowler as Graham Gooch's replacement, whilst India then a great side with many of them coming up to or in their prime such as Vengsarkar, Azharruddin, Armarnath, Kapil Dev, Maninder Singh. Also the great Indian opener Sunil Gavaskar whilst slightly past his prime was still good enough to make big scores as he proved when India toured and beat England in 1986.

Now to the issue about Australia's bowling in 2010/2011. Yes it was actually threatening enough such that they bowled us out relatively cheaply twice in Perth. The huge difference between the 2 teams I believe was that Australia didn't have a quality spin bowler in their team as they used Xavier Doherty before trying out other guys like Steven Smith and some guy called Michael Beer who was picked as the Aussies felt that Pietersen was the key batsman to get out in the England team.

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Post by Fists of Fury Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:57 pm

Greater performances against Australia perhaps - utter dominance - but this probably ranks alongside it in terms of sheer scale of achievement.

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Post by GSC Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:09 pm

Australia was much bigger for me.
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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:46 pm

This may historcialy have been a rarer event but the Ashes was far more special, even given how vile many of the Indian fans are and how "spikey" some of their players can be its nothing compared to the Aussies.

Nor have England been spanked home and away by these guys, nor have they dominated world cricket for over a decade.

Huge win, espeically off the back of the last 12 months ...but no "Collingwood" MBE for Samit Patel.

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Post by alfie Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:22 am

Don't really like these comparisons of famous victories , bit like trying to rank your children in order Smile

But : this was a huge achievement , coming off the back of a rather troubled year , some serious disharmony in the dressing room - now thankfully healed , it would seem - and the retirement of a very effective leader...add in the reputation of England teams recently in Asia , the odd injury setback and not much luck with the toss , and it can be seen as a triumph for determination in the face of adversity.

Can't put it ahead of 2010/11 though . First , this Indian team frankly isn't very good , which is why I for one thought England was a strong chance to win the series even in the beginning. They have lost the core of their batting in Dravid and VVS , and Tendulkar is just hanging on , and the new stars are not yet able to make up for that , plus the bowling is ordinary. Granted Australia was not particularly strong either - in fact they were arguably in a very similar state - but the manner of the Ashrs win (3 innings wins !) was quite overwhelming.

And perhaps the main issue is that the Ashes win followed no less than five previous tours in which the scores were 0-3 , 1-3, 1-3, 1-4,and 0-5 ...
While although this was the first win in India for 28 years , we should note that only one tour took place in the fifteen years after the 1985 win , for political reasons , and although that tour was a 0-3 humiliation the three tours in this century have produced two 0-1 defeats and a 1-1 draw. So the distance to a win never seemed quite as far as in Australia.

Plus I live in Melbourne so I had a lot more unanswerable mocking to return with interest Smile

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Post by Pal Joey Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:00 pm

alfie wrote:Don't really like these comparisons of famous victories , bit like trying to rank your children in order Smile

But : this was a huge achievement , coming off the back of a rather troubled year , some serious disharmony in the dressing room - now thankfully healed , it would seem - and the retirement of a very effective leader...add in the reputation of England teams recently in Asia , the odd injury setback and not much luck with the toss , and it can be seen as a triumph for determination in the face of adversity.

Can't put it ahead of 2010/11 though . First , this Indian team frankly isn't very good , which is why I for one thought England was a strong chance to win the series even in the beginning. They have lost the core of their batting in Dravid and VVS , and Tendulkar is just hanging on , and the new stars are not yet able to make up for that , plus the bowling is ordinary. Granted Australia was not particularly strong either - in fact they were arguably in a very similar state - but the manner of the Ashrs win (3 innings wins !) was quite overwhelming.

And perhaps the main issue is that the Ashes win followed no less than five previous tours in which the scores were 0-3 , 1-3, 1-3, 1-4,and 0-5 ...
While although this was the first win in India for 28 years , we should note that only one tour took place in the fifteen years after the 1985 win , for political reasons , and although that tour was a 0-3 humiliation the three tours in this century have produced two 0-1 defeats and a 1-1 draw. So the distance to a win never seemed quite as far as in Australia.

Plus I live in Melbourne so I had a lot more unanswerable mocking to return with interest Smile

Make hay while the sun shines... Smile

I still prefer to look at it as an 8 series winning streak (home & away) Alfie.

0-4, 0-3, 1-4, 1-3, 2-3, 1-3, 1-4, 1-4. .... or 7-28 from June 8, 1989 until November 7, 2002.

So yes, the Ashes win in 2005 over the No.1 side was the biggest ever achievement from England by a long way.
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Post by Corporalhumblebucket Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:19 pm

Linebreaker - agree that that the earlier Ashes win was the really big one. Quality of the opposition much better than the more recent Ashes win or this Indian series.

Having said that it was still a remarkable performance to beat India away.

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Post by Hibbz Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:02 pm

I likewise think the 2005 triumph was the most impressive. That was a fantastic Australia side and I'm still not convinced England would have done it with out the McGrath injury.

Then again without the Jones injury they might have done it even more impressively!!

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