Having Someones Number

Sometimes in boxing it can be the case that a fighter, no matter how good and no matter who else he has beat, struggles with one particular opponent. This can be put down to an off night perhaps, but we often see a two or three fight series where the same struggle occurs and it becomes obvious that, for whatever reason, one guy just has the others number. 

Muhammed Ali for example, conquerer of every top fighter of his era and arguably the greatest HW of all time had a nightmare with Ken Norton on 3 occasions. Mike Tyson just could not work a way around Evander Holyfield. Manny Pacquiao went life and death with JM Marquez across 23 rounds, yet has barely lost a round in 6 fights since. I think it's safe to say that Norton, Holy and Marquez had their opponents number in the ring, hence the struggles that occurred. When you've got a guys number, you've just got it and that's that. 

What other famous examples of otherwise top fighters having momentous struggles with guys who just seem to have their number spring to mind, and why do you think it occurs?

Pep Saddler
Hearns Barkley

Turpin had Robbo's number imo. Many have said Robbo got lucky as Turpin was winning their rematch.

Think styles is the reason it happens or a fighters ability to adapt to something their opponent does well or poorly.

Pep vs Saddler Saddler is 3-1 against Pep who is probably the greatest defencive fighter of all time and probably top 10 ATG. One of the fights Saddler used dirty tactics to beat Pep he ripped his arm out of it's socket. Taking nothing away from Saddler he was a great fighter but I've never been able to understand how he got the better of Pep on 2 other occasions.

Ayup Sugar Boy, nice article but I reckon we'll be here a while on this one! Even the great Ray Robinson, at the peak of his powers, had two absolute nightmares against the unheralded Henry Brimm, edging a close points decision first time around and then fighting a hard draw next time out, with Robinson (so legend has it) admitting that Brimm deserved the nod in that fight.

I think there's the mental aspect to take in to consideration, too. Thomas Hearns was more than capable of outboxing Barkley (and as we know, he did for a couple of rounds) but once Barkley nailed him, it shattered Hearns' psyche and, as a result, the technically inferior Barkley had his number and claimed a points decision in their second fight to go along with the knockout he scored in their first.

Interesting article, Sugar Boy.

It took Joe Louis two stabs at Bob Pastor to establish his superiority. First time out, not long before Louis won the title, Pastor took him all the way and, in the eyes of some ringside observers, did enough to win. The second fight wasn't completely plain sailing for Louis, either.

I'm tempted to include Dempsey and Willie Meehan, but given the fact that they were short fights, ( they included a couple of four rounders, if memory serves, ) and that Dempsey dropped Meehan in one of the affairs it's probably fair to say that Jack would have had a much better chance to establish himself over ten rounds and would probably have knocked Meehan out.

Robinson's Basilio was Ali's Frazier, and his Turpin was Ali's Norton.

Probably a case for Fighting Harada over Eder Jofre, though Jofre was struggling to make the bantam limit at the time.

Another would be Nino Benvenuti, who managed to get the better end of his trio with Emile Griffith.

Can't believe I forgot to mention Dempsey and 'Fat' Willie, Windy. I do see your point about some of their five fights being over a short distance, but given that Dempsey was such an incredibly explosive and devastating four round fighter I think it's fair to say that Meehan certainly had something which Dempsey just couldn't work around. For him to only beat Meehan once in five attempts is surprising, regardless of the length of the fight.

Good shout on Saddler - Pep. Willie just didn't have an answer for Sandy. Watched the two of them recently speaking together at an event, well i say together but Saddler couldn't get a word in edgeways, was great stuff.

There is a twoi can think of:

Barrera - Junior Jones
Forrest - Mayorga

Could maybe add Forrest Mosley to that soldier.

My wife found some hoochie's number in my trousers. Does that count?

Mayweather had Mannys number until Manny realised this and walked away........................:-p sorry Windy

Barrera - Naseem.

Skinny little runt new his @rse from his elbow then!!!!

How about Foreman vs Frazer? Frazer could give Ali hell in the ring, but was destroyed by Foreman.

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Mayweather had Mannys number until Manny realised this and walked away........................:-p sorry Windy

Our Father, who art in Heaven
Hallowed be thy name
Thy kingdom.......................

The Galveston Giant wrote:Could maybe add Forrest Mosley to that soldier.

True

With Mosley though its was tall boxers or boxers with a good jab

Forrest
Wright
Mora

Hopkins - Taylor
Taylor - Pavlik

Soldier_Of _Fortune wrote:

The Galveston Giant wrote:Could maybe add Forrest Mosley to that soldier.

True

With Mosley though its was tall boxers or boxers with a good jab

Forrest
Wright
Mora

Yeah good points mate, never thought about it before.

Roy Jones Jnr and Antonio Tarver.

Jones was past it when Tarver beat him though.

2nd fight he wasn't,3rd fight maybe.

TBH I thought Jones was past his best for all 3 and he won one of them. I thought Jones was past it abut the time he fought John Ruiz which I think was the fight before the first Tarver one.

After the Glen Johnson thats when I thought he was starting to fade away.He showed glimpses of his best against Felix Trinidad but Trinidad was old so I can't really base it on that.IMO RJJ never recovered from the Tarver knockout.

HumanWindmill wrote:

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Mayweather had Mannys number until Manny realised this and walked away........................:-p sorry Windy

Our Father, who art in Heaven
Hallowed be thy name
Thy kingdom.......................

Also Shane Mosley had Fernando Vargas' number.

Liam_Main4 wrote:Also Shane Mosley had Fernando Vargas' number.

Think that's a bit harsh on Mosley he was an elite fighter in his prime. Vargas had only lost to Trinidad and De La Hoya before Mosley. IMO the Mosley are down to Mosley being an elite fighter rather than having Vargas' number. He was a better fighter than Vargas.

The Galveston Giant wrote:

Soldier_Of _Fortune wrote:

The Galveston Giant wrote:Could maybe add Forrest Mosley to that soldier.

True

With Mosley though its was tall boxers or boxers with a good jab

Forrest
Wright
Mora

Yeah good points mate, never thought about it before.

You can add Cotto that aswell. Forgot about him

azania wrote:Turpin had Robbo's number imo. Many have said Robbo got lucky as Turpin was winning their rematch.

Not strictly true, Robinson was on his way to a majority decision but was at risk of being stopped due to a cut I believe

Yeah if memory serves me correct he was ahead in the fight but received a bad cut. He then went out and stopped Turpin. I was always in the belief that Turpin got Robinson at the right time, which was right at the end of his european tour, where he fought seven fight in less than two months, not that it was uncommon to be fighing so frequently in those days and still the best win for a british fighter in my view.

Liam_Main4 wrote:Also Shane Mosley had Fernando Vargas' number.

I think it was more to do with Vargas being shot once Trinidad and ODLH had got through with him. He was struggling more and more with weight making as he got older as well.

I don't agree with Hearns Barkley, it was on the verge of being stopped when Barkley found some luck. Have you seen the second fight? Hearns was a shadow, his legs were gone. Anybody who could take some punishment should've beaten him that night Barkley just about scraped a SD.

Charles had Burley and Moore's number, but nobody had Charles' as far as I know.

Brilliant one there JBW, Charles over Moore, never seen a fellow all time great struggle so much with an opponent. In this case can't use Moores age or peak ability as an argument, Charles just knew how to beat him.

Especially if you see the description of their final fight on boxrec, it sounds like a real tear up with both guys on the verge of going at the end.

Yeah Burley was well beaten by Charles on both occasions and was man enough to admit he had no chance.

holyfield-bowe

Bowe - Golota. In a weird way as he lost both fights

eddyfightfan wrote:holyfield-bowe

I believe Bowe was just too good for Mr Field. Too good in every department. I dont think its a case of having his number.

azania wrote:

eddyfightfan wrote:holyfield-bowe

I believe Bowe was just too good for Mr Field. Too good in every department. I dont think its a case of having his number.

Balco did, though.

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:

eddyfightfan wrote:holyfield-bowe

I believe Bowe was just too good for Mr Field. Too good in every department. I dont think its a case of having his number.

Balco did, though.

Are you suggesting that the G-d fearing Mr (Holy)Field taking ultra modern nutritional aids?

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:

eddyfightfan wrote:holyfield-bowe

I believe Bowe was just too good for Mr Field. Too good in every department. I dont think its a case of having his number.

Balco did, though.

Are you suggesting that the G-d fearing Mr (Holy)Field taking ultra modern nutritional aids?

Moi ? Mais non, Monsieur !

The Tarver one against RJJ was the beginning of the end for RJJ, ended him that night as a fighter, he came back after being knocked out to get put to sleep again straight after, game over for him, as for Tyson - Holyfield, well... tyson well past his best and not the same fighter, this was post-prison, but yeah Tyson couldn't get to him.

Hearns had Durans number and both knew it
Mr Fields certainly had Balcos number and they had his address