England Back Row

Current EPS Back Row

C.Robshaw
T.Wood
B.Morgan
T.Waldrom
T.Johnson
P.Dowson
T.Croft

Changes I would make

B.Vunipola (In) T.Waldrom (Out)
J.Haskell (In) P.Dowson (Out)
M.Kvesic (In) T.Croft (Out)

Vunipola is having a storming season, I feel he could make a huge impact now and in future. Waldrom has had a steady season, but is not one for now or the future. Haskell is a much better player than Dowson and I think this is going to be an inevitable change. Whilst Croft steadily makes his comeback from a very dangerous injury, I feel England should bring Kvesic into the squad, the more game time he gets at seven for Worcester the better he looks, he was the stand out player on the pitch against Leicester on Friday night. Will Fraser should definitely be in the Saxons, he's having a great season for Saracens.

Thoughts?

I think one of the seven listed were actually injury cover for Croft so it'll only be 6 back row players in the EPS by my count.

2 LH, 2 Hookers, 2 TH, 4 Locks and 6 back row players usually make up the 16 forwards in the squad I think.

No 8 - Morgan, Vunipola
Flankers - Robshaw, Wood, Haskell, Johnson

With Croft looking unlikely to be ready that would be my choice. I wouldn't be surprised if Vunipola is in the Saxons though - I can see the logic as well given Waldrom being a reliable player and Billy still being pretty raw.

Vunipola could do with learning some control at the base of the scrum, he and Simpson conspired to make a hash of 2-3 good positions today. I would be pulling my hair out of he did that for England.

For the time being, I would keep the starting backrow the same as the NZ game, because I think they've got a definite future as a strong starting combination.

I liked Haskell on the bench too. Covers 6,7, and 8 well, and adds some grunt when he comes on.

Croft's return could be a real head ache. Interesting in the telegraph article that it states he bulked up from 104kg to 110kg.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9778010/England-flanker-Tom-Croft-to-make-Leicester-comeback-after-eight-months-out-with-neck-injury.html

this big lardy vunipula!!!

whats the big deal with him. he has looked pretty average for england so far,,

Croft needs time to get back to fitness. Perhaps a drop to the Saxons, ready for promotion to EPS if needed.

Billy Vaunipola can be lifted to the Saxons - get him some time in the training environment.

Back rowers at risk are - T.Johnston and Dowson.
Waldrom hasnt looked great for Tigers either!
Haskell should be promoted,
and I know its not going to happen - but I wonder if Steff Armitage would be available for call up.

mystrioakey which Vunipola brother are you referring to?

Mako Vunipola is a loosehead prop who plays for Saracens

Billy Vunipola is a no 8 who plays for Wasps.

It's Mako who didn't exactly shine in the AIs.

robshaw4england can't really argue with your recommendations though personally I haven't seen enough of Ksevic.

Still hoping for Armitage, even though Lancaster doesn't seem to rate him for some reason.

With regards to Kvesic its refreshing to see him delay the inevitable move to a bigger club to get regular gametime...somthing i think other youngsters at "smaller clubs" should take note of.

I wouldnt change the starting back row in the 6n.

Im also split with regards to Tom Johnson. I rate him highly at club level....but im just not convinced at international level.

mawhis wrote:Still hoping for Armitage, even though Lancaster doesn't seem to rate him for some reason.

Personally i think people should forget about him...it aint gonna happen.

Especially not with Robshaw in as Captain...and the likes of Kvesic, Wallace, the young Sarries flanker...etc all coming through.

Is it Poff at LI aswell? Isnt he supposed to be a crackin young 7...?

Poff is a Wasp I think. Dude with the massive hair.

Injuries do happen Geordie. And a lot of those mentioned are still young and would benefit from more game time than they are currenly getting.

GeordieFalcon wrote:With regards to Kvesic its refreshing to see him delay the inevitable move to a bigger club to get regular gametime...somthing i think other youngsters at "smaller clubs" should take note of.

I wouldnt change the starting back row in the 6n.

Im also split with regards to Tom Johnson. I rate him highly at club level....but im just not convinced at international level.

That's the advantage "smaller" clubs have -potential for more 1st team starts.

Game time is what players need to prove themselves plus it's what they are paid to do and what they want.

I expect players like Jamie George and George Ford are looking at these "smaller" clubs for that very reason.

Then again which are the big clubs and which are the small ones?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

mawhis wrote:Still hoping for Armitage, even though Lancaster doesn't seem to rate him for some reason.

Personally i think people should forget about him...it aint gonna happen.

Especially not with Robshaw in as Captain...and the likes of Kvesic, Wallace, the young Sarries flanker...etc all coming through.

Is it Poff at LI aswell? Isnt he supposed to be a crackin young 7...?

Poff's the specialist openside at Wasps. He's New Zealand born and bred, and 29 years old. Think he was McCaw's understudy while at Crusaders, and decided to come over and ply his trade here? From what I've seen, he's a very good 7, but seems to be losing match time because Wasps are going for the larger starting backrows of recent. Seems to be working nicely for them, no complaints!

Players presumably need to look at squad composition and size.
An academy forward may struggle to break into the 1st team at Leicester or Sarries.
An academy wing may struggle for 1st team selection at Quins or Bath with plenty of wing options (either specialist or good quality versatility cover).

Big Club - Small Club makes no difference.
Possibly the only other thing to consider may be H-Cup vs Amlin!

beshocked wrote:mystrioakey which Vunipola brother are you referring to?

Mako Vunipola is a loosehead prop who plays for Saracens

Billy Vunipola is a no 8 who plays for Wasps.

It's Mako who didn't exactly shine in the AIs.

robshaw4england can't really argue with your recommendations though personally I haven't seen enough of Ksevic.

ta

I agree to a certain extent propdavid london but not entirely.

Saracens have Ashton,Strettle,Wyles and Short as wing options. That would be pretty tough to break into.

Equally Quins have very decent backrow options. Robshaw and Easter are two lynchpins of the Quins pack for example. Didn't one of your backrowers move because he struggled to get in?

I agree some areas are easier to break into but at some clubs it gets much harder.

Plus it's also to do with the culture of the club - Quins focus almost solely on their academy prospects whereas Saracens and Leicester have what I would call a healthy mix of new signings and academy.

it's generally injuries and call ups which give the opportunities.

On the other hand sometimes a bit of competition for your position is good.

I feel that some players particularly for England have suffered due to lack of competition for their position - Hartley,Ashton,Easter. Two of them have now lost their England spot and Ashton could be next.

Can't really say HC vs Amlin with Sale!

Prop David

I think the way i look at it..is that with a smaller squad a club may have to rely on putting some of their youngsters into games they'd maybe prefer not to but have no choice due to numbers. Whereas larger clubs should be able to manage their players better...selecting which games the youngsters get exposed to.

Geordie and Beshocked.
Yup, I agree with all points - was just using those as examples.
Competition is good - ideally you want 2 very good options fighting it out for a starting spot.

Think it was a guy called York that left Quins - cant remember where he went though.

Came to us mate..Chris York. Coming along nicely learning off Ally Hogg, Tuifua etc..playing a bit at 6 actually...when Mark Wilson aint there...

It's just too early days for the Vunipola brothers I think. Mako had only really kicked off this season for Sarries and did very well. His showings in the AI's weren't spectacular but he's one to start a game on the Argie tour I would say.

Billy Vunipola is a unit and has been going well for Wasps but again he's only really had about a season in the Jeff and he's only 19. Get him in the Saxons by all means, but he needs a fair bit more experience yet I feel. I'd perhaps like to see how he goes this season and if he maintains form see him some time during the AI's.

Let's not forget Ben Morgan is an excellent carrier and is only 23 himself with not even a full years international rugby under his belt yet. He also needs time to develop.

Guys like Joe Launchbury are exceptional in my view. To be able to come in at 21 having had a season or so in the Prem and perform to that level in internationals against the SH is frankly outstanding. Others like Morgan and the Vunipolas require more feed in time.

As a side note I did think Matt Kvesic was exceptional against Tigers and he was the best back rower on the pitch by a stretch. He can also play across the back row and i'd like to see him at 7 for England in the summer.

Guys like Joe Launchbury are exceptional in my view. To be able to come in at 21 having had a season or so in the Prem and perform to that level in internationals against the SH is frankly outstanding. Others like Morgan and the Vunipolas require more feed in time

I agree with this...and id add (the older at 25 but equally raw) Tom Youngs to that...thought he was seriously good especially the last two games when he got used to it.

Anyone know when fearns will be playing again.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Guys like Joe Launchbury are exceptional in my view. To be able to come in at 21 having had a season or so in the Prem and perform to that level in internationals against the SH is frankly outstanding. Others like Morgan and the Vunipolas require more feed in time

I agree with this...and id add (the older at 25 but equally raw) Tom Youngs to that...thought he was seriously good especially the last two games when he got used to it.

Absolutely GF. Quite apart from the fact that everyone said he would go to pieces in the line-out (of which I think 3 went awry the whole of the AIs) he added so much in the loose with his carrying at pace right into the opposition. Hartley always used to ease up and drop his shoulder going into contact. He was excellent and I would start him for the Scotland game with Hartley on the bench.

Kvesic played extremely well on the w/end and i'd like to see him at 7 at some point. Fearns is another who was starting to put a marker down but he's injured again.

Chjw131 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Guys like Joe Launchbury are exceptional in my view. To be able to come in at 21 having had a season or so in the Prem and perform to that level in internationals against the SH is frankly outstanding. Others like Morgan and the Vunipolas require more feed in time

I agree with this...and id add (the older at 25 but equally raw) Tom Youngs to that...thought he was seriously good especially the last two games when he got used to it.

Absolutely GF. Quite apart from the fact that everyone said he would go to pieces in the line-out (of which I think 3 went awry the whole of the AIs) he added so much in the loose with his carrying at pace right into the opposition. Hartley always used to ease up and drop his shoulder going into contact. He was excellent and I would start him for the Scotland game with Hartley on the bench.

Kvesic played extremely well on the w/end and i'd like to see him at 7 at some point. Fearns is another who was starting to put a marker down but he's injured again.

Err T.Youngs did go to pieces in the lineout at least in one match. I think it was vs South Africa the lineout was totally shocking. Other than that horror show - yes his throwing was pretty good.

The rest of his game was pretty good but I think he missed at least one tackle that resulted in a try.

I would start T.Youngs at hooker but not because of his throwing! He carried well and was solid at scrum time.

It was overall a good debut series for T.Youngs though his lineout needs work still.

Fearns' injury is a disappointment, but Kvesic rise is encouraging. Putting in a big performance against Tigers was much needed, and he got it done.

Tom Youngs was an animal at the latter stages of a the AIs. Hit the ball at pace, and he's so dense that he smashed the gain line. Great stuff- and missing from England's game for a while.

Launchbury I agree, was sublime, and I can't wait for the 6 Nations.

The young age of many players in the squad is one of it's real strengths though. The below is a list from players ages who were in/around the squad for the AI's and those being touted for the 6N. Apologies if I missed any names or any of the ages are slightly out - differing sources!

20 - B Vunipola
21 - Launcherry, Farrell, Tuilagi, Joseph, M Vunipola, Wade
22 - Burns, Marler
23 - Morgan, Youngs, Sharples
24 - Corbs, Lawes, Goode, Twelvetrees
25 - T Youngs, Cole, Ashton
26 - Robshaw, T Wood, Care, Barritt, Hartley, Allen

Players younger than 30 - Wilson (27), Haskell (27), Flood (27), Brown (27), Foden (27), Biggs (28), Parling (29), Waldrom (29), Monye (29), N Wood (29)

It's not just guys like Youngs and Launchberry who have been very impressive for guys their age. 26 is still very young for a captain in Robshaw for instance. It's very good to see for English rugby.

That list is also interesting reading for people who argue JSD is too old for Int rugby as he's mere months older than Parling for instance who is now looking like a back bone to the team going into the next WC.

Come the 6ns i believe that if no injuries, England back row starting the 6ns will be.

Robshaw

Wood

Morgan.