England's back three

The time has come for Lancaster to bite the bullet and admit that the experiment with Brown as a winger hasn't worked. Not browns fault mind but he is badly being shown up for positional know how and its a disaster waiting to happen.

Personally I can't see why Ben Foden isn't being picked, he's international class and other players with proven pedigree have been rushed back in eg Corbs, Croft,Tuilagi

If Foden gas been in camp he will be up to speed and needs to start if fit. If not fit its time to bring in David Strettle who's been in the eps and playing well!

For me it has to be

11. Foden
14. Ashton
15. Brown

Foden is international class...but i believe his form since injury hasnt been representative of that...Saints fans can confirm.

We have numerous wingers...(Johnny May, Christian Wade, Yarde...)so i dont get this policy of playing FB's on the wing....

Brown must start at FB for me...Goode has been ok...but is in there to be a second playmaker and its not happening...so get rid, get brown in there and try to bring Twelvetrees in sooner over Barritt...who has appalling offensive abilities for a back...

I understand what you are saying about brown being out of position, but i dont think it would be wise to play Foden on the wing either.

An out and out winger should be brought in Strettle/Wade/Varndel/May.
any one of those would be better than playing either Brown or Foden on the wing imo.

I would like to see Varndell on the wing....

11.Varndell
14.Ashton
15.Brown

Clive Woodward say's that he'd play Jonny May at 11 with Brown at 15.

I'm tempted to go with that too.

You never know the lack of time with the squad and little time to dwell on the match and worry may do him a favour and he'll just do what comes naturally.

The back 3 selection is SL's achilles heel - and he won't change that for next week (which is probably just as well with only a few days to train). He appears to have picked 3 good players, that as a combination, just don't do the job well enough. Brown is great on the ball with a boot on him, but positionally is average in defence (on the wing, that is). Goode is a 2nd playmaker that is rarely required to playmake, and his tackling and pace are a bit average. Ashton is not getting/finding the ball like he used to and tackles like Cuthbert/Visser.

So, average pace for attack, and positionally suspect in defence. Not sure what else is expected of a back 3. We desperately need Foden & Ashton to find their test form. Brown to FB. And a 2nd winger, in form, would be nice.

The kicking ability that having two full backs brings is undeniable and did come to the fore against the irish. However Brown's frailties defensively came to the fore yesterday and Goode had a very poor game. This would lead me to put Brown at 15 as his counter attacking ability is superb and then would either have Foden or Strettle on the wing. Especially with Twelvtrees rise in prominence to become the second receiver England need, diluting Goode's importance.

From a Welsh perspective I pray Lancaster retains the same back three. If the ball is spread to the backs Halfpenny, North and Cuthbert have each looked more impressive over the course of the tournament than their respective opposite numbers. Against a stiff Welsh defence I can't see Goode/Brown/Ashton offering much unless their forwards manage to dominate and provide the platform. And looking back on the wings' defence vs Italy and France a couple of blindside one-on-one's might even do it for Wales, though Lancaster might have taken note himself and organised a tighter defensive line come Saturday.

It won't change for the Wales game. But I liked SCW's preferred choice of 11.May 14.Ashton 15.Brown

The supposed defensive solidity of Brown on the wing looked a decent move, but his poor positioning and lack of acceleration to use the touch line as any extra tackler has offset his good front-on tackling. The use of the latter strategy also means less reliance on front-on tackling, so it actually makes little sense picking him there anyway. Needs to play at FB.

It's probably harsh to ask May or Wade to start a GS game there BUT...we've got to try something else. The other option is Foden, who makes more sense to me. Not as good in heavy traffic but he's no pushover, and his pace going forward and defensively is better. Ashton must be near dropping. I like the guy but his form is poor, not helped by the centres admittedly.

With Barritt in we probably have less chance of losing by more than 6. Using his defence as an attack, as we have done to milk penalties, may even give us a better chance of winning. But we can not build a game around that to beat the top teams regularly. And i suspect Wales will just offer a little more power. I'm not convinced 12Trees is the answer for this, but we need to find out sooner rather than later. 12 is a long-standing issue and Barritt only part solves it. We may find this is the best we can get, but we need to try other options to know.

Our back-line with Barritt means zero ball for the back 3. Or poor ball at best. We can't outmuscle the Welsh backs (possibly Tuilagi can). We can't out muscle their pack really. We need to attack with supported runners (at least two of which are genuine ball carriers like Morgan), clear out quickly and go again. Our attempts to shift-one pass in the forwards was spotted by the Italians, who just waited as we shifted it on too early. This needs to be mixed up more - some the first receiver drives, then the next recycle maybe shift it one, then the next dummy first receiver and drive etc etc - it needs variety to fix them on their heels. We need forwards to go forward, suck their guys into contact then off load fractionally before imapct. We need other forwards to run a line that isn't slap bang into an opposition forward for this to work.

To be honest, the more I think about how bad that performance was, the more I think we have very little chance.

Shane Warne (and he did alright) had the daring strategy of "always do what your opponent most dreads".

Lots of names being bandied about but it seems to me Wade is the only selection which would fit the above.

Shane Wayne actually said do what the WIFE most dreads .

I would happily see Wade on the wing..with Asthon and Brown at FB...think that would be potent...

HOWEVER

If we go with that we have to address the Barritt problem. He's been one of Englands best players in the lancaster days...a real battler, and team player...but his presence also hurts the team offensively....especially if we have Farrell at 10 who himself is not a creative attacking 10.
This is the reason Goode has been playing FB...to cover Barritts issue.

Is this the game to change / switch so many critical positions? Im not sure. But in the Summer in Argentina that fulcrum position must be looked at...

I dont think North or Cuthbert would dread facing Wade - The Dragons seemed to do well against him

That's the problem if we change our wingers,gain in attack but not in defence.If goode is dropped strettle will come in.

Barritt always gets the blame on these boards for our back 3 not getting any ball and for me it seems to be another one of those preconceptions that some people on here carry irrespective of what actually occurs in games. One example of a player doing something people have preconceived gets banked away and magnified to happening constantly (with the numerous other examples of the opposite not registering), whereas other players doing exactly the same and in a similar or greater frequency are easily forgotten.

Last week someone was addressing this issue of Barritt supposedly giving no or poor ball with the example of the match against Scotland. The back 3 saw loads of good ball in that game. Due to Twelvetrees some might say, but he only passed/offloaded the ball 7 times (none of which were his fizzing miss passes that he is so capable of, what he principally offered of note was his running game, which he did 16 times), Barritt passed/offloaded 18 times at OC, his play there was the main reason the ball was getting out wide so often. This week Tuilagi at OC ran the ball 9 times and passed/offloaded just once (things we know he is more than capable of). Now I'm not advocating dropping Tuilagi, he's one of our best attacking weapons, but if the gameplan is to use him as such people shouldn't be surprised that ball doesn't get beyond him too often and it shouldn't always be up to the players inside him giving miss passes to make sure it does.

I've said numerous times on here that I think Twelvetrees is the more talented player and long term option at IC, but I also think that much of the criticism thrown at Barritt is just plain wrong. What they are raising is the function of a number of things and I can concerningly see the same people complaining that Twelevtrees wasn't all he was cracked up to be when things don't suddenly change when he comes in (or ignoring that they are still happening because it's not inline with their preconceptions).

sickofwendy wrote:That's the problem if we change our wingers,gain in attack but not in defence.If goode is dropped strettle will come in.

I'm not sure how the defencive capabilities of the wings could get much worse tbh.

If I were picking Englands back 3 I would go for Ap form mixed with int class...

15. Foden
14. Monye
11. Varndell

Granted what you give away in natural talent you more than make up for in attacking threat, Foden hasn't been top from but he is a proven int class FB and offers far more going forward than Goode.

Monye and Varndell aren't particularly talented, or agile, or good defencively but they are a better option than Brown and Ashton IMHO, they will at least get stuck in, and look to break the line.

^^^ Wouldn't do that against Wales though!!

Brown is obviously the form player/full back and should be selected there without question, unless you're sl ofcourse.
The wing situation is a conundrum and the eps agreement dosn't really help when you're only form options are bolters from outside the squad.
May could very well be the future with Wade the obvious choice/talent on the right.
For next Saturday I'd pick Foden on the wing for his experience and pace (Strettle just is not international class and May and Wade who has been injured are outside the eps) Brown and Ashton.

36 at 12 Barritt at 13 Tuilagi at 14
Brown 15.
May at 11.

Could be great - could be average - don't think it would be a disaster.

Mbernz

Barritt also gets a huge amount of credit on these boards aswell...as i have done above. He has been one of the key players in this team since lancs came in...and i think it was Dalaglio who said Barritt is probably the 2nd name on the teamsheet...

But i just think having him AND farrell are highly restrictive as an attacking combo (at the moment)...people are free to disagree with that. Farrell is improving..we have seen signs of that, but its slow steady progress...which reflects the team as a whole i guess.

Maybe we are lacking that big ball carrier to get punching holes again like Morgan was doing...and Bill V could potentially do.

Barritt is a dilema thats for sure....

Wi11 wrote:Shane Warne (and he did alright) had the daring strategy of "always do what your opponent most dreads".

Sounds like what Richie Benaud used to say: I can't find the exact quotation, but it's along the lines of, 'do whatever it is your opponent doesn't want you to do'.

With Farrell coming back I don't think you can drop Goode... Farrell is a little limited in his distribution play and Goode works well off him.

If they were to bring in Twelvetrees then that issue would go away... however Lancaster is unlikely to do that given that Barritt will be needed in defence against Wales' large backline.

Sort of limits what Lancaster can do....

the smart thing to do would have been to change 1 or 2 against Italy... to test combinations. Say test Twelvetrees and Tuilagi together, put Brown to 15 and bring in an actual winger.

Too late now though.

Attacking wise I don't think Brown's lack of outright pace will be too much of a problem. Cuthbert is direct in attack and Brown is a good tackler. On attack Brown never beats guys for pace either rather guile, something Cuthbert may have a problem dealing with.

Ashton's covering of North should be a worry for England.

MBernz I agree with most of that.

Why all the hype surrounding May? Wade and Varndell I can understand but May? Seriously?

At least Strettle has 5 tries in 5 games in the AP.

May has scored less tries than Biggs,Brown,Varndell,Wade,Strettle,Thompstone and Monye in the AP.


I think if changes are needed to be made there are only two options IMO.

15.Brown
14.Ashton
11.Strettle

or

15.Brown
14.Wade
11.Strettle



Varndell has scored a lot more tries than Strettle in the AP this season but in the last 5 games Strettle has been in better form - 5 tries in 5 games compared to 1 in 5 games.

Wade has 4 tries in the last 5 games.

No injuries, Foden and Strettle are the only available eps options.

May has only been back from injury 3 or 4 games, hence his low scoring comparrison. If he is International class is yet to be decided, however he certainly has the natural ability, its the mental side that beats alot of players.
Varndell has lost form since taking a knock a few games back, sadley I think his International prospects have gone.....another wasted talent, Ojo, Simpson-Daniel, Tait etc.

beshocked wrote:MBernz I agree with most of that.

Why all the hype surrounding May? Wade and Varndell I can understand but May? Seriously?

At least Strettle has 5 tries in 5 games in the AP.

May has scored less tries than Biggs,Brown,Varndell,Wade,Strettle,Thompstone and Monye in the AP.


I think if changes are needed to be made there are only two options IMO.

15.Brown
14.Ashton
11.Strettle

or

15.Brown
14.Wade
11.Strettle



Varndell has scored a lot more tries than Strettle in the AP this season but in the last 5 games Strettle has been in better form - 5 tries in 5 games compared to 1 in 5 games.

Wade has 4 tries in the last 5 games.

I'd put Strettle in a similar bracket as Varndell - an excellent finisher but not creative. Although Varndell's passing for example has improved immensely. I get the point re May, but it's similar to a JSD argument. We need players who can create something from nothing perhaps. I think that's where people see May fitting in.

Fa0019

Ashton's covering of North should be a worry for England. .

Yes it could be. But i have a feeling they may bring Croft back in. He plays a role for the Tigers that hes a big defender out wide (and in the midfield etc)...using his pace etc...Lancs might utlise that gameplan in this game...to cover Wales big backs...

Kingelderfield May should be ruled out for lack of gametime then.

Hood83 if you want a more creative winger then Wade's the obvious choice. Not May.

He's played more games,scored more tries and surprisingly very good defensive stats.

beshocked wrote:Kingelderfield May should be ruled out for lack of gametime then.

Hood83 if you want a more creative winger then Wade's the obvious choice. Not May.

He's played more games,scored more tries and surprisingly very good defensive stats.

Yep, agreed, was just trying to suggest reasons for people wanting May. I'd prefer Wade but I'd be watching any collisions with North and Cuthbert from behind the sofa!

Wades a tough little guy...its not his physicality in defence thats a problem..its he sometimes gets a little lost in positioning....which is fixable...

I'd put him in for this game with no hesitation.

Wade's defence has been surprisingly good as already said. I think Wade has the ability to get past the giant Welsh wingers that perhaps others like Strettle and Ashton don't.

Remember ickle Shane vs Banahan? You would think the big man would have run the little man over but that didn't happen.

I would select May and Wade now, however because neither is in the eps, barring injuries they cannot be selected.

Remember ickle Shane vs Banahan? You would think the big man would have run the little man over but that didn't happen..

Beshocked...i rate North and Cuthbert better than Banahan...otherwise i totally agree....

Offensively i have no doubt that Wade would also give those to something to think about...he is the type that is hard to put down...seems to just bounce off tackles...

The problem is that we are now at the last game of the season, away in Cardiff to decide whether we win the Grand Slam and the Championship. Not the place to get too experimental with selection.

Also, it is probably worth remembering that Lancaster has been picking a back 3 with 2 fullbacks since the start of the South Africa tour, so it is a tactic that he is happy with.

Agree that at the moment the balance doesn't seem quite right, but really the only change I can see being made for this week is Foden being brought in on the wing and Brown moving to FB.

Players like Wade, May and possibly even Yarde should get a chance over the summer.

dummy_half wrote:The problem is that we are now at the last game of the season, away in Cardiff to decide whether we win the Grand Slam and the Championship. Not the place to get too experimental with selection.

I disagree, I think Wales would fear a far more experimental England looking to play open and score tries than the type of game England will play.

Both these teams want to play to their strnegths, structured attritional carrying with dead eye kickers. If England however rock up and select a backline of...

9. Care
10. Farell
11. Strettle
12. 36
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Foden

With the likes of Youngs, Flood and Goode off the bench.

Thiw would rattle the Welsh selection, and Howley would more than likely change his tactics to be even more conservative than he does already, he might even more Roberts to the 13 channell, and adjust the game plan to avoid any mistakes and chances for counter rugby (thats what each team is doing now anyway)

A typical England backline Wales will be ready, and more than happy to play against, an optimistic and willing to play England backline would worry wales.

Thing is, England only need to win, so there's even less incentive for Lancaster to pick an experimental / attacking side.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Thing is, England only need to win, so there's even less incentive for Lancaster to pick an experimental / attacking side.

England don't need to win, they just need to lose by less than 7, IMHO SL will play the type of game that eliminates any chance of conceding tries, kick from anywhere in your own half, don't attack with any gumption or width to avoid any chance of counter ball, kill the clock with a lot of forward work, and most importantly take every shot at goal you can.

If England lose 21 - 15 with no try threat and 3 tries against SL will probably be happy!

You can't seriously be suggesting they won't be playing to win?

Oh of course they will, but will they be playing to win by anything other than Farells boot and attrition up the middle???

The more teams try to win and score points the more they leave themselves open, and vulnerable.

SL will be playing the odds and hoping for 5 penalty kicks, praying Wales don't have the ability to out manouvre and outflank England defence to score 22 or more!

Safety from England will be the order of the day, play it tight, play it safe and be set for when those mistakes do happen (in Wales half) England will be set to fall straight into a cohesive defencive pattern!

Best case scenario for SL is that England win by 1 point, worst case is Wales scoring tries and beating them by 8. In order to target something within the parimeter of the 2 outlines SL has to play safe, never risk running the ball within 60 metres of their own try line, and never allow Wales to get quick ball wide, therefore the attacking play from England will be near 0!

Wales are ready for this, and will counter it with similar.

I don't know which way he'll go. He strikes me as a fairly conservative coach, and the attempt at really opening up against Italy didn't come off, but that doesn't necessarily mean he'll fall back to a tight gameplan. He might spend the week reminding them of how they played against the All Blacks and send them out to replicate it.

thebluesmancometh England will only be happy with a win.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I don't know which way he'll go. He strikes me as a fairly conservative coach, and the attempt at really opening up against Italy didn't come off, but that doesn't necessarily mean he'll fall back to a tight gameplan. He might spend the week reminding them of how they played against the All Blacks and send them out to replicate it.

I truly hope so!

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I don't know which way he'll go. He strikes me as a fairly conservative coach, and the attempt at really opening up against Italy didn't come off, but that doesn't necessarily mean he'll fall back to a tight gameplan. He might spend the week reminding them of how they played against the All Blacks and send them out to replicate it.

Then whos he sending to the Welsh hotels kitchen?!

England didn't go out to blow NZ away last AI, they went out to play a way to close NZ down and shut them out, it just turned out NZ players weren't at the races and England took full advantage!

My point is SL has nothing to gain by going out and trying to score tries and beat Wales up, he has everything to lose by doing so. England tried to open up V Scotland and Italy and it showed they just aren't at a stage yet where thats an option (with those players anyway), Italy and Scotland showed how vulnerable England can be when things are not tight and targets arent conservative!!!

England I'm sure will stick to what has been a successful game plan built around a solid defence and keeping the score board ticking over when the opportunity presents - its good rugby and they have a team to be successful playing this way. If the game opens up then they also have the players to do some damage. Any significant deviation from this would be a risk and I don't see that happening

They scored four tries against Scotland.

beshocked wrote:thebluesmancometh England will only be happy with a win.

If your telling me that losing by the odd point that the celebrations of the championship win would be muted? NO CHANCE! The GS is the ultimate prize, it's the cherry on top, but a championship win would be more than enough off the back of the NZ game to highlight Englands improvements and SL's credentials!!!

The GS is the ultimate goal, the championship win is still the prize on offer though!

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:They scored four tries against Scotland.

And looke pretty vulnerable too, and they were outscored by Italy in the try count, you think Wales don't have more firepower than those 2 teams and a better defence. Opening the game up is a recipe for disaster for England, they are the team with it all to lose remember!!!

I still don't think it's a given that England will tighten things up. Lancaster will be aware of the criticism of England's attack and he might want them to prove they're better than they've showed the last few games.

England don't have to "open up" to score trys

Ruby, I have a horrible feeling they'll score a couple from kicking penalties to the corner and getting a rolling maul going.