England's back three

by Tiger/Chief Mon 11 Mar 2013, 16:45

First topic message reminder :

The time has come for Lancaster to bite the bullet and admit that the experiment with Brown as a winger hasn't worked. Not browns fault mind but he is badly being shown up for positional know how and its a disaster waiting to happen.

Personally I can't see why Ben Foden isn't being picked, he's international class and other players with proven pedigree have been rushed back in eg Corbs, Croft,Tuilagi

If Foden gas been in camp he will be up to speed and needs to start if fit. If not fit its time to bring in David Strettle who's been in the eps and playing well!

For me it has to be

11. Foden
14. Ashton
15. Brown

by thebluesmancometh Tue 12 Mar 2013, 12:26

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I still don't think it's a given that England will tighten things up. Lancaster will be aware of the criticism of England's attack and he might want them to prove they're better than they've showed the last few games.

If he thinks like that then he's a fool, winning ugly will bring the euphoria that is a grand slam, noone will care until the autumn how England were playing, so the summer and AI's can be the time to work out how to attack, Saturday is about winning in any way possible!!! Winning coaches don't get criticised half as much for a certain phacet of play than near winning sides!

by RubyGuby Tue 12 Mar 2013, 12:27

I have no horrible feelings - we are physically more than a match for them all over the park - it remains a 50/50 thumbsup

by thebluesmancometh Tue 12 Mar 2013, 12:29

Ye the maul is a bot of a worry for me too, but think of it logically, if England are in any sort of position where they can kick to our 5m line, then Farell will find the shot at goal kickable so they won't bother trying to risk not coming away with points.

Remember Englands gameplan is based upon conservatism, and taking any points on offer, the only way they kick to the corner is if Wales are up by more than 9 points, or Robshaw has a brain fart late in the game and thinks England won't have time to lose it.

by Geordie Tue 12 Mar 2013, 12:32

Lancaster will be aware of the criticism of England's attack and he might want them to prove they're better than they've showed the last few games

And thats what England tried in the 1990 WC final v OZ. They tried to change their style to more flamboyance over a gamestyle that probably would have won them the World Cup.

If i was Lancs id stay roughly as we are...Farrell back in and with big Billy at 8 with instructions to be a rampaging bull with the ball in hand.

by Cyril Tue 12 Mar 2013, 12:33

Seems for all this talk about England conservatism, I'd say Wales are the more conservative side these days. That could make it difficult for them as they need to do more than just squeak a win.

I'm hoping England get the basics right, play intelligently and the rest will follow.

by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 12 Mar 2013, 12:33

Teams do strange things in big matches, Bluesman. Remember the World Cup quarter final against Ireland, when they kept turning down kicks for goal and went for the lineout instead? Hell, we did it ourselves against the All Blacks in the autumn!

by EnglishReign Tue 12 Mar 2013, 12:38

beshocked wrote:MBernz I agree with most of that.

Why all the hype surrounding May? Wade and Varndell I can understand but May? Seriously?

At least Strettle has 5 tries in 5 games in the AP.

May has scored less tries than Biggs,Brown,Varndell,Wade,Strettle,Thompstone and Monye in the AP.

Mate, J May has scored 6 tries in the last 7 since returning from injury (4 in last 4 AP) and he is only just getting back to 100% fitness. He might've got another against Worcester but for a trip and has played a huge part in most of Gloucester's recent try fest.

He's been injured basically all season, so I don't know how you can compare all those other wingers.

It's perfectly understandable that some people prefer Wade but to question May's hype seems a little odd.

by little_badger Tue 12 Mar 2013, 12:43

Based on the result against Italy, I would like to see a mantra from England of 'taking chances'. They won't get many chances to score tries against Wales and therefore have to take them, if not put the pressure on force the penalty take the points.

England need to keep cool heads, very few penalties in England's half because ultimately I can see this being decided by discipline.

To the OP, I would like to see Brown at fullback and a winger on the wing, but in the last game of the 6n I just don't see it happening. Please SL take Jonny May and Wade to Arg!

by thebluesmancometh Tue 12 Mar 2013, 12:43

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Teams do strange things in big matches, Bluesman. Remember the World Cup quarter final against Ireland, when they kept turning down kicks for goal and went for the lineout instead? Hell, we did it ourselves against the All Blacks in the autumn!

Aye your right, and we may well see a bit of inventory from one team saturday. I would be amazed if it was from England though, they have it all to lose!

by yappysnap Tue 12 Mar 2013, 12:53

EnglishReign wrote:
beshocked wrote:MBernz I agree with most of that.

Why all the hype surrounding May? Wade and Varndell I can understand but May? Seriously?

At least Strettle has 5 tries in 5 games in the AP.

May has scored less tries than Biggs,Brown,Varndell,Wade,Strettle,Thompstone and Monye in the AP.

Mate, J May has scored 6 tries in the last 7 since returning from injury (4 in last 4 AP) and he is only just getting back to 100% fitness. He might've got another against Worcester but for a trip and has played a huge part in most of Gloucester's recent try fest.

He's been injured basically all season, so I don't know how you can compare all those other wingers.

It's perfectly understandable that some people prefer Wade but to question May's hype seems a little odd.

The good thinga about May compared to the others is that he's had a grounding at 15 and in the centre's as well so his skill set is far more rounded then any of those options, yet he's still an incredible strike runner. The thought of him and Brown combining is amazing. Come to Quins Johny!!

by propdavid_london Tue 12 Mar 2013, 12:56

I think, like most here that there wont be any changes to the back 3 for the 6N. It just wont happen with 1 game left.

My feeling is that Goode has had an indifferent run. The last few games he hasnt really delivered in my opinion. He wont go on the Lions tour but I would still like to try another 15 on the Argie tour.

May has playerd 15 and offers the versatility.
Foden surely will be targeting the Argie tour to proove he's back.

Wade surely will be on the plane to South America, along with Sharples and we were talking about Miller for a while at the start of the season. But SL may want some experience so would probably still take Monye.

by little_badger Tue 12 Mar 2013, 12:58

Is he out of contract at Glous this year? Just say no to Sarries!!

by johnpartle Tue 12 Mar 2013, 13:00

mbernz wrote:Barritt always gets the blame on these boards for our back 3 not getting any ball and for me it seems to be another one of those preconceptions that some people on here carry irrespective of what actually occurs in games. One example of a player doing something people have preconceived gets banked away and magnified to happening constantly (with the numerous other examples of the opposite not registering), whereas other players doing exactly the same and in a similar or greater frequency are easily forgotten.

Last week someone was addressing this issue of Barritt supposedly giving no or poor ball with the example of the match against Scotland. The back 3 saw loads of good ball in that game. Due to Twelvetrees some might say, but he only passed/offloaded the ball 7 times (none of which were his fizzing miss passes that he is so capable of, what he principally offered of note was his running game, which he did 16 times), Barritt passed/offloaded 18 times at OC, his play there was the main reason the ball was getting out wide so often. This week Tuilagi at OC ran the ball 9 times and passed/offloaded just once (things we know he is more than capable of). Now I'm not advocating dropping Tuilagi, he's one of our best attacking weapons, but if the gameplan is to use him as such people shouldn't be surprised that ball doesn't get beyond him too often and it shouldn't always be up to the players inside him giving miss passes to make sure it does.

I've said numerous times on here that I think Twelvetrees is the more talented player and long term option at IC, but I also think that much of the criticism thrown at Barritt is just plain wrong. What they are raising is the function of a number of things and I can concerningly see the same people complaining that Twelevtrees wasn't all he was cracked up to be when things don't suddenly change when he comes in (or ignoring that they are still happening because it's not inline with their preconceptions).

I picked up on the same post, it was by Niwatts and my question at the time was:

"given that Barritt passed more at 13 than we are used to seeing him do at 12 and that 36 passed less than many of us expected him to at 12 (running it almost three times as often), might it be part of the coaches' gameplan to structure our play that our 12s are asked to lean more towards carrying the ball?"

And given how playing two 12s in the midfield opened up our game, are the coaches asking Tuilagi to take on too much responsibility for giving us go forward and not insisting he show his more varied game as he did against NZ?

by markb Tue 12 Mar 2013, 13:42

The back three most certainly need a freshening up, but now is not the right time to do it, it's far too much pressure to put on the new talents most of us would want to bring in, particularly as they won't have been training with the squad for the last couple of months. Aside from that, it's not the area of the game that will see us win it, what we far more desperately need is a return of the ferocity and flooding of the breakdown that we've shown in previous matches this season. Simple agressive play will see us through.

Come the summer tour however I would like to see Ashton left at home to focus on his preseason, Brown & Foden taken only to play at FB, and Wade, May & Yarde developed as a matter of urgency (with Benjamin also hopefully being a possibility next season and redrafted into the Saxons after his unfortunate season long injury).

by beshocked Tue 12 Mar 2013, 16:59

EnglishReign wrote:
beshocked wrote:MBernz I agree with most of that.

Why all the hype surrounding May? Wade and Varndell I can understand but May? Seriously?

At least Strettle has 5 tries in 5 games in the AP.

May has scored less tries than Biggs,Brown,Varndell,Wade,Strettle,Thompstone and Monye in the AP.

Mate, J May has scored 6 tries in the last 7 since returning from injury (4 in last 4 AP) and he is only just getting back to 100% fitness. He might've got another against Worcester but for a trip and has played a huge part in most of Gloucester's recent try fest.

He's been injured basically all season, so I don't know how you can compare all those other wingers.

It's perfectly understandable that some people prefer Wade but to question May's hype seems a little odd.

If he's been injured basically all season why is there so much clamour to pick a player for England who has not much game time?

He hasn't exactly been tested vs the best has he? By the way I wouldn't call Mont De Marsan the best.

Look I just think the calls for May for England are bit too soon. In my opinion he has not done enough yet to warrant a spot.

None of the Gloucester wingers have.

by Chjw131 Tue 12 Mar 2013, 17:24

beshocked wrote:
EnglishReign wrote:
beshocked wrote:MBernz I agree with most of that.

Why all the hype surrounding May? Wade and Varndell I can understand but May? Seriously?

At least Strettle has 5 tries in 5 games in the AP.

May has scored less tries than Biggs,Brown,Varndell,Wade,Strettle,Thompstone and Monye in the AP.

Mate, J May has scored 6 tries in the last 7 since returning from injury (4 in last 4 AP) and he is only just getting back to 100% fitness. He might've got another against Worcester but for a trip and has played a huge part in most of Gloucester's recent try fest.

He's been injured basically all season, so I don't know how you can compare all those other wingers.

It's perfectly understandable that some people prefer Wade but to question May's hype seems a little odd.

If he's been injured basically all season why is there so much clamour to pick a player for England who has not much game time?

He hasn't exactly been tested vs the best has he? By the way I wouldn't call Mont De Marsan the best.

Look I just think the calls for May for England are bit too soon. In my opinion he has not done enough yet to warrant a spot.

None of the Gloucester wingers have.

Apart from JSD of course!

England will use the NZ game as the template and benchmark. For them it'll be about going back to the practices that won them that game. Offensive defence, strong competition at ruck time and heavy-duty ruck clearing. Ball to Youngs and Farrell and keep the intensity and tempo high when they have the ball. What England actually need to work on this week is their set-piece. It has to be a match-winning scrum and a flawless line-out. Any less and Wales will kick the points and territory.

It's been concerning that our set-piece hasn't functioned particularly well and I don't know if Cole is perhaps a little fatigued but if we had more depth in that are i'd think we'd have seen him 'rested' for the Itlay game. I think Davy Wilson is an excellent scrummager and wouldn't have a problem with him facing his club-mate Paul James in the Wales game.

by EnglishReign Tue 12 Mar 2013, 18:15

beshocked wrote:
EnglishReign wrote:
beshocked wrote:MBernz I agree with most of that.

Why all the hype surrounding May? Wade and Varndell I can understand but May? Seriously?

At least Strettle has 5 tries in 5 games in the AP.

May has scored less tries than Biggs,Brown,Varndell,Wade,Strettle,Thompstone and Monye in the AP.

Mate, J May has scored 6 tries in the last 7 since returning from injury (4 in last 4 AP) and he is only just getting back to 100% fitness. He might've got another against Worcester but for a trip and has played a huge part in most of Gloucester's recent try fest.

He's been injured basically all season, so I don't know how you can compare all those other wingers.

It's perfectly understandable that some people prefer Wade but to question May's hype seems a little odd.

If he's been injured basically all season why is there so much clamour to pick a player for England who has not much game time?

He hasn't exactly been tested vs the best has he? By the way I wouldn't call Mont De Marsan the best.

Look I just think the calls for May for England are bit too soon. In my opinion he has not done enough yet to warrant a spot.

None of the Gloucester wingers have.

I'm not saying he should play next week but he will definitely tour Argentina and hopefully cement a place in the EPS.

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