The Lions captaincy

Lions tours are what they ere in long-gone halcyon days of yore.
Concurrent ones are over in the time took from embarkation to arrival on the outward journey.
But the skipper's perk seems unchanged - undroppable.
There isn't a position, let alone an experienced captain who could be confidently predicted to guarantee a match day selection.

I said this before when I was Portnoy, but I'll say it again - give the job to BOD because of his credentials as a player, a social smooocher, a media man and all-round-good-chap.

But don't repeat the mistake of 1983 when they chose FitzGerald and played him in preference to and despite the fact that Colin Deans was far superior on tour.

Bod should not be lions captain, just because this year could be his last year of international rugy.

so give it to BOD even though you have a man like Tuilagi arguably superior and near impossible to leave out... but you don't want to repeat the mistake of 1983???

Hasn't Gatland always chosen forwards as captains???

GTP means give it to BOD - then don't play him if his form is poor.

For me Rory Best is looking more and more like the right fit - but should england win the championship it would be hard to ignore Robshaw.

LondonTiger wrote:GTP means give it to BOD - then don't play him if his form is poor.

For me Rory Best is looking more and more like the right fit - but should england win the championship it would be hard to ignore Robshaw.

I don't think that Robshaw is nailed on by any means so whilst he's a good leader and a strong player I can't see him being Captain, I think currently the only players that are "nailed on" are Gray, Best and Sexton.

Gray is nailed on by reputation alone... he's been nothing bar average this year.

fa0019 wrote:Gray is nailed on by reputation alone... he's been nothing bar average this year.

Completely agree, he was nowhere in the england game and i think he also missed quite a few tackles, more than someone his size should anyway. He was good in the lineout but not much else.

fa0019 wrote:so give it to BOD even though you have a man like Tuilagi arguably superior and near impossible to leave out... but you don't want to repeat the mistake of 1983???

Hasn't Gatland always chosen forwards as captains???

Tuilagi better than BOD....

Ask Dan Carter or Richie McCaw the same question?

fa0019 wrote:Ask Dan Carter or Richie McCaw the same question?

They'll just point out that neither are as good as Conrad Smith

As someone else said Tuilagi can do some things BOD cant but the reverse is also true. If Tuilagi is ahead now it cant be by much as BOD was majestic on Saturday.

In any case why not start them both. BOD can play 12 or thirteen and even though Tuilagi is a thirteen he would be a wrecking ball at 12. It could be an epic partnership.

Long story short BOD will definitly tour and play in at least one test. No doubt about it.

fa0019 wrote:Ask Dan Carter or Richie McCaw the same question?

In all fairness even Ben Youngs ran through McCaw and Conrad Smith that day.

depends on how Ireland perform in coming weeks.

Could even be one of the Irish backrow.

I think Best is the best option (excuse the pun), if he can keep his discipline

fa0019 wrote:Ask Dan Carter or Richie McCaw the same question?

And they will tell you Manu is not yet good enough to clean BODs boots. Comical if you were not serious

When was the last time BOD did anything great in attack in the way Manu has done for the last 2 seasons?? Perhaps 3 years ago.

His defence is awesome... but ball in hand he's not the player he once was.

fa0019 wrote:When was the last time BOD did anything great in attack in the way Manu has done for the last 2 seasons?? Perhaps 3 years ago.

His defence is awesome... but ball in hand he's not the player he once was.

Jeez, someone must have missed the Ireland v Wales match.

oh you mean his 1m try break from the maul? How silly of me.

According to ESPN he carried the ball 4 times for a total of 3 metres.

fa0019 wrote:When was the last time BOD did anything great in attack in the way Manu has done for the last 2 seasons?? Perhaps 3 years ago.

His defence is awesome... but ball in hand he's not the player he once was.

Huh? Did you see the pass for Zebo's try? Or versus Exeter where he and D'Arcy combined like the pairing of old? He still causes panic in defences when he attacks with ball in hand. The old electric pace is gone but still one of the finest attacking brains in rugby!

fa0019 wrote:When was the last time BOD did anything great in attack in the way Manu has done for the last 2 seasons?? Perhaps 3 years ago.

His defence is awesome... but ball in hand he's not the player he once was.

While I agree with you that at the moment Tuilagi's ahead of BOD (though there's very little in it IMO), did you see BOD's pass for the opening try on Saturday? I suggest that that was definitely "great in attack" ...

BOD isn't as quick as he once was (understandably), but he was clearly the best centre in the world between ~2003 and ~2007, but his passing game is still superb.


Edit, I'm typing too slow today, beaten to a point again

fa0019 wrote:oh you mean his 1m try break from the maul? How silly of me.

According to ESPN he carried the ball 4 times for a total of 3 metres.

Most effective 3 metres in recent memory by the looks of things...

Haha Pete, us Irish guys are quick off the mark today to defend our boys!

fa0019 wrote:oh you mean his 1m try break from the maul? How silly of me.

According to ESPN he carried the ball 4 times for a total of 3 metres.

Eh no how about the time he made the arcing run drew in three Welsh defenders and looking the other way threw a blind pass round the back of Alex Cuthbert to an onrushing Zebo try. Tuilagi couldnt pull that off in his wildest dreams. Very few players could.

If BOD continues his form it would be hard to ignore him. The man is a legend of the modern game and an inspiration as a Captain.

fa0019 wrote:When was the last time BOD did anything great in attack in the way Manu has done for the last 2 seasons?? Perhaps 3 years ago.

His defence is awesome... but ball in hand he's not the player he once was.

You might look at the two of them and realise they are two different people...two different qualities. Tuilagi is young and powerful and with a brilliant turn of speed. O'Driscoll has his noted history and the experience it brings, something Tuilagi is still quite quite short on, and still has his famous brain burning brightly.
The Number 13 might be the same no matter who wears it but the player wearing it doesn't need to be.

BOD was also man of the match but sure why would that matter.

I don't think that there is any doubt BOD still has the brain and the passing skills to compete at the highest level and he will deservedly go on the tour. His defense is better than Manu's although a lot of that is purely down to experience, sometimes its easy to forget Manu is only 21.

I also think it is fair to say that, as an attacking threat, Manu is now ahead of BOD. That is nothing against BOD but Manu can produce something out of nothing, a bit like (but not to that level yet) BOD used to do himself.

Pairing them is an interesting idea, though I am sure Mr. Davies and Roberts will have their say as well, and it is something I am positive they will try at some point on the tour.

As an aside, it will also be an incredible opportunity for Manu to learn from one of the greatest 13's of all time and I am sure will only make him an even better player.

Have you all forgotten who is the Lions head coach.

No matter how many shout for BOD to be captain. Gatland will remain loyal to his own welsh Captain. SAM WARBURTON.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Ask Dan Carter or Richie McCaw the same question?

They'll just point out that neither are as good as Conrad Smith

Only until Jaque Fourie's name enters the conversation.

What's comical is all the press clamouring for Jamie Roberts prior to the 6N's

If BOD keeps the form he showed on Sat then he'll definitely start, if not then Manu could get in, well know a lot more after the weekend.

Biltong wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Ask Dan Carter or Richie McCaw the same question?

They'll just point out that neither are as good as Conrad Smith

Only until Jaque Fourie's name enters the conversation.

Jaque's retired though

(playing in Japan amounts to the same thing )

BOD is a great choice but possibly an injury risk too? I wouldn't mind seeing Rory Best take the armband - guaranteed starter and proven leader

BOD and Tuilagi: two different types of 13. It will all depend on which type Gatland wants and whether BOD is still in one piece. A few of Ireland's old geezers have had their careers come to very abrupt ends recently. Remember David Wallace. One minute marauding as if he hadn't aged at all. Next minute he's down injured and has played the last rugby of his career. At that age one injury can finish you. And we all know BOD won't shy away from danger even with a missing limb. He's like
the black knight in Monty Pythons Holy Grail.

I can't see O'Driscoll being named captain. Because I don't think he's a certain starter. I think he'll definitely tour if fit though.

After this weekend alone then Robshaw and Best are the front runners.

Feckless Rogue wrote:BOD and Tuilagi: two different types of 13. It will all depend on which type Gatland wants and whether BOD is still in one piece. A few of Ireland's old geezers have had their careers come to very abrupt ends recently. Remember David Wallace. One minute marauding as if he hadn't aged at all. Next minute he's down injured and has played the last rugby of his career. At that age one injury can finish you.

And we all know who made the tackle that ended it. I'd hate to see that be repeated. O'Driscoll deserves a better exit but a game is a game and no quarter will be given by either side or any player.

Robshaw isn't certain of a test place. Haskell looked imperious when he was on. Lancaster really has sorted the prima donnas out.

I think you'v got to look for the people nailed on for test jersey.

For me there is only Rory Best nailed on for a place , a banker at the lineout and a good footballer in the loose and a pretty good leader as well.

So at the moment my Lions skipper would be Rory Best.

For me the first name on the teamsheet is Healey, but he isn't going to be captain. There are many potential captains, one of which is most likely to start because he is the most solidified (gaud I can't think of a better descrptive than that) in his position - Rory Best. For that reason I honestly think it will be Best who is captain, or who should be. All other positions with potential captains are just too difficult/close to call.

How ridiculous would it be if a back row forward was picked as captain and then didn't perform at start or made the back row a poor balance for example. You can't pick Warburton or Robshaw for example in case one outperforms the other or if Tipuric is the man on fire for the 7 birth. Or if you're thinking of 6 then you've got O'Brien or Ferris or Brown and the scots on top of that pushing for places.

You might at this point start thinking Heaslip as a candidate but to be honest, as much as it pains me to say this, I really don't rate Heaslip as highly as other seem to do, and certainly not as a captain of the lions. And certainly certainly not with a haircut like that, we need to have some pride damn it! And remember there's always Beattie and Denton not to mentio Faletau.

With the strength we have in the back row it quite simply can't be a player in any of those positions. Then you have 13, can't be BOD cause he isn't sure to start with Tuilagi or even JD2 if he regains form. Now we're running out of options unless you look at second row or even half backs. I'm telling you the smart move is to make Best the Captain and I think that's what will happen.

Gaud I don't half go round in circles trying to put my point across but am just paranoid I'm not putting it across properly or clearly enough, apologies for that

The amount I drink these days I should really have more confidence

Some nice comments by some Welsh legends after the Ireland Wales match.

"He has been the best player of our generation by far"
-Martin Williams on Drico

"Once again Brian O'Driscoll showed the class and calibre of the man. It was worth the entrance fee just to see that pass"
-Gareth Edwards, the great.

And he has captain written all over him. Well, him or Mike Phillips

Glas a du wrote:And he has captain written all over him. Well, him or Mike Phillips

Good chance they will both tour.

Robshaw hasn't toured before and absolutely showed his captaincy naivety last Autumn.

Rory Best hasn't toured before and the media don't rate him, which is one of the main criteria.

BOD has everyone's respect as a captain, has toured Austraia before, and the media love him. If he gets injured - no problem he'll still do the media work and Gatland will pick Best/Warburton/Robshaw to do the match job.

BOD will be captain but a Lions team needs lots of other leaders on field too and Best, POC, Warburton, Robshaw, Wood, Brown etc all qualify on that count.

Glas, Haskell is a very different player to Robshaw but certainly is playing more of a 6 or 8 for England. I don't see him competing for Robshaw's place though Gatland does know him. Also, Haskell looked decent when he came on (worse than Morgan, Wood or Robshaw or Brown for that matter IMO) but Robshaw was borderline omnipresent

I'd love BOD to be tour captain. He deserves a tour place on merit and scrubs up well enough to be plonked in front of the media.

Unfortunately he can't be guaranteed a test position.

However he appears to have accepted the loss of the Irish captaincy through gritted teeth.

If Gatland & Co offer him the job, in my view it should be on the proviso that test captaincy is not automatic.

Does Drico have the humility to accept the job in the knowledge that there's such a codicil?

Imo if he won't accept the honour on these terms, he shouldn't tour at all. Whilst it's true that there.s no 'I' in Team, the skipper must forget that there is one in Captain.

Did you see Saturday's game? Not assured a test place, my arse!

CJ, I hear you, but, when Haskell was in a ruck or maul (a novel concept I'll grant you) he reminded me of...


...Dean Richards. Arms like an octopus, all over everything, slowing Scotland down. Robshaw was there maybe, but Haskell was a lot more effective.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
While I agree with you that at the moment Tuilagi's ahead of BOD (though there's very little in it IMO), did you see BOD's pass for the opening try on Saturday? I suggest that that was definitely "great in attack" ...

Hmmm ..... lets just see what happens on Sunday eh.......

Quite a few had Davies tipped to tour ahead of BOD before last weekend...

Exactly Rodders.

rodders & Glas

Although most had envisaged Davies playing at inside centre not in direct competition with BOD or Tuilagi.

Do the Lions have to pick a Captain before going on tour?? Why don't they have a Captain on a Match by Match basis and pick the Test Captain the week before the first test... This will ensure the Captain is first choice in his position and also give Gatland time to decide after spending quality time with all his squad..

fa0019 wrote:rodders & Glas

Although most had envisaged Davies playing at inside centre not in direct competition with BOD or Tuilagi.

and others may have envisaged that given that Tuilagi is playing inside centre and Davies outside at international level that it is the latter who is in direct competition with BOD rather than the former....

I personally see it as 3 players playing for 2 positions with O'Driscoll in the driving seat after week one and the onus is on Tuliagi to produce the big game on Saturday. I think many people would also argue that O'Driscoll is the better foil for either Davies, Tuilagi or Roberts than they are for each other.

Another good game from O'Driscoll and he is 6 months of avoiding serious injury away from a 4th Lions test series, in my opinion.

Gatland isn't a man to waffle through his life. He will make a decision and stand by it.... and in all probability he'll pick a forward.

Has he ever picked a back as captain of any of his campaigns?

Dillaglio at Wasps, Jones, Rees and Warburton at Wales.