The Lions captaincy

First topic message reminder :

Lions tours are what they ere in long-gone halcyon days of yore.
Concurrent ones are over in the time took from embarkation to arrival on the outward journey.
But the skipper's perk seems unchanged - undroppable.
There isn't a position, let alone an experienced captain who could be confidently predicted to guarantee a match day selection.

I said this before when I was Portnoy, but I'll say it again - give the job to BOD because of his credentials as a player, a social smooocher, a media man and all-round-good-chap.

But don't repeat the mistake of 1983 when they chose FitzGerald and played him in preference to and despite the fact that Colin Deans was far superior on tour.

Rodders

If fit and playing I doubt BOD won't be picked to tour.... Experience counts a lot of tours so it needs its senior players. Although that doesn't mean he will test.... that will be up to his form, the form and fitness of Tuilagi (in all probability) and the direction Gatland is looking to take this side.

For me Tuilagi is a man you can build your attack on... whether it be at 12 or 13. He breaks gain lines better than any back in the NH and builds opportunities for other players... perhaps a defensive rock like BOD will work well with him .

Although that depends on whether they can work together and if Tuilagi can play 12.... He plays better at 13 with more space.

pbuk0 wrote:Do the Lions have to pick a Captain before going on tour?? Why don't they have a Captain on a Match by Match basis and pick the Test Captain the week before the first test... This will ensure the Captain is first choice in his position and also give Gatland time to decide after spending quality time with all his squad..

Exactly right.

Glas a du wrote:Did you see Saturday's game? Not assured a test place, my arse!

CJ, I hear you, but, when Haskell was in a ruck or maul (a novel concept I'll grant you) he reminded me of...


...Dean Richards. Arms like an octopus, all over everything, slowing Scotland down. Robshaw was there maybe, but Haskell was a lot more effective.

Clearly you did not read what I wrote Glas and you chose to misconstrue my words.

On current form I'd say BOD would be worthy of a Lions place but with four games to go before the selection, you'd be a bit premature to assume he'd be a certainty for the test place.
Shooting from the hip some posters, based on one International game, have slotting Twelvetrees into the 12 position. Idiocy.

The Lions captaincy is an honour which bestows on its owner a lifetime of freebies at rugby's inner round table.
But it's an honour not a beatification. BOD is worthy of the Tour captaincy but he'll have to play for his Test shirt(s).

I did read it. How many times must BOD prove himself? The guy is class, all he had to do was prove he still had it, he has.

We're one game into the tournament. To conclude anything on the basis of one game is folly.

Glas a du wrote:I did read it. How many times must BOD prove himself? The guy is class, all he had to do was prove he still had it, he has.

+ 1

rodders wrote:

Glas a du wrote:I did read it. How many times must BOD prove himself? The guy is class, all he had to do was prove he still had it, he has.

+ 1

That answers nothing in terms of the rôle of Lions captain as you see it.

What I say is
Worthy of touring? - yes
Worthy of being Tour Captain? - yes
Worthy of automatic test selection? - no.

BOD would have no interest in going to be just Tour Captain. He said it was a mistake to hang around the '05 tour when he got injured.

In SA as soon as he got injured, he bailed out (didn't wait for the final Test).

If fit, he would add a heck lot more to any team than Manu Tualagi.

I guess we'll see on Saturday assuming both start.

greytiger wrote:

rodders wrote:

Glas a du wrote:I did read it. How many times must BOD prove himself? The guy is class, all he had to do was prove he still had it, he has.

+ 1

That answers nothing in terms of the rôle of Lions captain as you see it.

What I say is
Worthy of touring? - yes
Worthy of being Tour Captain? - yes
Worthy of automatic test selection? - no.

Who ticks the 3 boxes in your opinion?

I would say BOD is closer to a yes in the final box than any of the current home nations captains. In fact I think bar Sexton and perhaps Healy he's as close to an automatic pick as there is available.

fa0019 wrote:I guess we'll see on Saturday assuming both start.

If England win, it probably won't be all down to Tualagi.

If Ireland win, most of it will be down to BOD.

Sin é wrote:BOD would have no interest in going to be just Tour Captain. He said it was a mistake to hang around the '05 tour when he got injured.

In SA as soon as he got injured, he bailed out (didn't wait for the final Test).

Yep, that shows great commitment to the cause. Give him the armband now!

Exactly Sinbad!

Sin é wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I guess we'll see on Saturday assuming both start.

If England win, it probably won't be all down to Tualagi.

If Ireland win, most of it will be down to BOD.

Boom!

Saying BOD is the only reason for victory is a little insulting to the top class players IRE have at their disposal... they have a pack to match most and a flyhalf who has no peers in the competition.

In fact I think Sexton is probably more important to IRE then BOD... BOD can be replaced with Earls et al... no way as good but a decent player. Who can replace Sexton??? without Sexton you'd be on par with Scotland.

fa0019 wrote:so give it to BOD even though you have a man like Tuilagi arguably superior and near impossible to leave out... but you don't want to repeat the mistake of 1983???

Hasn't Gatland always chosen forwards as captains???

really - Tuilagi near impossible to leave out!

he is not that good

In fact I think 12 Trees is better

fa0019 wrote:
In fact I think Sexton is probably more important to IRE then BOD... BOD can be replaced with Earls et al... no way as good but a decent player. Who can replace Sexton??? without Sexton you'd be on par with Scotland.

BOD scored one try, made another and saved one with a try saver on Evans.... if he hadn't been on the pitch we'd have lost by 13 points by my calculations......

fa0019 wrote:Saying BOD is the only reason for victory is a little insulting to the top class players IRE have at their disposal... they have a pack to match most and a flyhalf who has no peers in the competition.

Owen Farrell will be the Lions outside half. A world-class outside half would have kicked for territory and slowed the game down when Wales started to play in the second half.

pbuk0 wrote:Do the Lions have to pick a Captain before going on tour?? Why don't they have a Captain on a Match by Match basis and pick the Test Captain the week before the first test... This will ensure the Captain is first choice in his position and also give Gatland time to decide after spending quality time with all his squad..

Selection of the Lions captain is a big deal and I can't see that changing tbh. Traditionally he should be named shortly after the completion of the 6Ns

rodders

So Ireland wouldn't have scored that try in the corner if BOD hadn't dived over? No one else could have done that?

Come on... that logic is voodoo.

So Earls or whoever wouldn't have made that tackle? Different players, the match would have been different but I severely doubt BOD himself would have had a 21 point differential. He ain't Jonny Wilkinson.....

fa0019 wrote:rodders

So Ireland wouldn't have scored that try in the corner if BOD hadn't dived over? No one else could have done that?

Possibly the try would have came from the pressure but if you watch the build up.... similar to the two he scored in 2009 v Wales and England.... BOD is planning that dive over two phases back. He sees space before anyone else.. whereas Healy powered through Phillips, BOD almost touched down almost uncontested due to the speed of his reactions...... yes there are other players who could do this but not as many as you think...

Frankly I'm outraged I've been forced to agree with Sin. I've had three showers and I still cant scrub the dirt off.

If BOD has such an egotistical character, then maybe he'd be a divisive affect on the party.

The Lions are a scratch side - which is one of the reasons Lions tours are so difficult.

Gatland & Co must initially assess their resources and from that create a cohesive strategy tailored to defeat the opposition.

The tour party should be selected not by the perceived 'best' players in a particular position, but players selected to achieve success of the strategy.

There should be no place for prima donnas who can't fulfil their appointed rôle and acknowledge gracefully that competitors for their shirt might get it.
Particularly at captain.

fa0019 wrote:
So Earls or whoever wouldn't have made that tackle? Different players, the match would have been different but I severely doubt BOD himself would have had a 21 point differential. He ain't Jonny Wilkinson.....

And no Earls wouldn't have made that tackle, just like BOD wouldn't have missed the one on Cuthbert if he's still been defending the 13 channel.

greytiger wrote:If BOD has such an egotistical character, then maybe he'd be a divisive affect on the party.

The Lions are a scratch side - which is one of the reasons Lions tours are so difficult.

Gatland & Co must initially assess their resources and from that create a cohesive strategy tailored to defeat the opposition.

The tour party should be selected not by the perceived 'best' players in a particular position, but players selected to achieve success of the strategy.

There should be no place for prima donnas who can't fulfil their appointed rôle and acknowledge gracefully that competitors for their shirt might get it.
Particularly at captain.

Totally agree, thats why O'Driscoll should captain. Hes the current best player in his position and his credentials as a captain and player far outstrip all the other candidates put together.

This is the easiest pick as captain since Jonno in 2001.

greytiger wrote:If BOD has such an egotistical character, then maybe he'd be a divisive affect on the party.

The Lions are a scratch side - which is one of the reasons Lions tours are so difficult.

Gatland & Co must initially assess their resources and from that create a cohesive strategy tailored to defeat the opposition.

The tour party should be selected not by the perceived 'best' players in a particular position, but players selected to achieve success of the strategy.

There should be no place for prima donnas who can't fulfil their appointed rôle and acknowledge gracefully that competitors for their shirt might get it.
Particularly at captain.

BOD isn't a prima donna. It just means that he would want his contribution to be on the pitch, and not as a tour guide.

rodders wrote:

greytiger wrote:

rodders wrote:

Glas a du wrote:I did read it. How many times must BOD prove himself? The guy is class, all he had to do was prove he still had it, he has.

+ 1

That answers nothing in terms of the rôle of Lions captain as you see it.

What I say is
Worthy of touring? - yes
Worthy of being Tour Captain? - yes
Worthy of automatic test selection? - no.

Who ticks the 3 boxes in your opinion?

I would say BOD is closer to a yes in the final box than any of the current home nations captains. In fact I think bar Sexton and perhaps Healy he's as close to an automatic pick as there is available.

Best is the only player that ticks all 3 boxes,
BoD for me will tour but hes not guarented to start, on current form yes, but there are challangers to the shirt.

Best has pencilled his name for the number 2 shirt, Took over Ireland Captaincy for Ireland durning the Last 6 Nations, has the respect of the players as a leader.

Currently for me Best is the only player that ticks all 3 boxes, if Bod keeps this form, then by end of 6 nations he may tick them all as well.

rodders wrote:

fa0019 wrote:
So Earls or whoever wouldn't have made that tackle? Different players, the match would have been different but I severely doubt BOD himself would have had a 21 point differential. He ain't Jonny Wilkinson.....

And no Earls wouldn't have made that tackle, just like BOD wouldn't have missed the one on Cuthbert if he's still been defending the 13 channel.

Far too much is being made of Earls mistackle. He made 9 others (just 2 less than BOD) who was on the pitch for 80 mins. Earls also put in a great hit on Roberts at one stage. Ireland shouldn't have been defending where they were in the first place. With the size of the Welsh backs, the try was coming for a long time.

'Worthy of automatic test selection' sounds like 'there is nobody else who is any good in that position' - just saying like.

Sounds like you dont want to consider certain players because their position is competitive.

fa0019 wrote:Saying BOD is the only reason for victory is a little insulting to the top class players IRE have at their disposal... they have a pack to match most and a flyhalf who has no peers in the competition.

In fact I think Sexton is probably more important to IRE then BOD... BOD can be replaced with Earls et al... no way as good but a decent player. Who can replace Sexton??? without Sexton you'd be on par with Scotland.

Seriously Fa, firstly just admit it you have a secret crush on BOD

Secondly Ian Madigan, Paddy Jackson and Ian Keatley are all good out halves. Madigan has looked excellent any time he has deputised for Sexton at Leinster and he should have more Ireland caps now. Jackson has looked decent when he has played for Ireland and has already played in a Heineken cup final. The only reason it seems like we dont have back up OHs is because ROG is Kidneys love child and no one else is allowed warm the bench..

Kingshu wrote:

rodders wrote:

greytiger wrote:

rodders wrote:

Glas a du wrote:I did read it. How many times must BOD prove himself? The guy is class, all he had to do was prove he still had it, he has.

+ 1

That answers nothing in terms of the rôle of Lions captain as you see it.

What I say is
Worthy of touring? - yes
Worthy of being Tour Captain? - yes
Worthy of automatic test selection? - no.

Who ticks the 3 boxes in your opinion?

I would say BOD is closer to a yes in the final box than any of the current home nations captains. In fact I think bar Sexton and perhaps Healy he's as close to an automatic pick as there is available.

Best is the only player that ticks all 3 boxes,
BoD for me will tour but hes not guarented to start, on current form yes, but there are challangers to the shirt.

Best has pencilled his name for the number 2 shirt, Took over Ireland Captaincy for Ireland durning the Last 6 Nations, has the respect of the players as a leader.

Currently for me Best is the only player that ticks all 3 boxes, if Bod keeps this form, then by end of 6 nations he may tick them all as well.

I'd agree that Best if all boxes have to be ticked is in a good position at this point in the 6Ns although there are games to be played - particularly next Sunday.

But my argument is that the tour captain doesn't have to tick all the boxes.

The 1983 experience should not be repeated.

greytiger wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

rodders wrote:

greytiger wrote:

rodders wrote:

Glas a du wrote:I did read it. How many times must BOD prove himself? The guy is class, all he had to do was prove he still had it, he has.

+ 1

That answers nothing in terms of the rôle of Lions captain as you see it.

What I say is
Worthy of touring? - yes
Worthy of being Tour Captain? - yes
Worthy of automatic test selection? - no.

Who ticks the 3 boxes in your opinion?

I would say BOD is closer to a yes in the final box than any of the current home nations captains. In fact I think bar Sexton and perhaps Healy he's as close to an automatic pick as there is available.

Best is the only player that ticks all 3 boxes,
BoD for me will tour but hes not guarented to start, on current form yes, but there are challangers to the shirt.

Best has pencilled his name for the number 2 shirt, Took over Ireland Captaincy for Ireland durning the Last 6 Nations, has the respect of the players as a leader.

Currently for me Best is the only player that ticks all 3 boxes, if Bod keeps this form, then by end of 6 nations he may tick them all as well.

I'd agree that Best if all boxes have to be ticked is in a good position at this point in the 6Ns although there are games to be played - particularly next Sunday.

But my argument is that the tour captain doesn't have to tick all the boxes.

The 1983 experience should not be repeated.

Thats an excellent point. The Lions Tour can always do with an Irishman as a scapegoat when everything gets messy. Not enough Irishmen to blame for the last tour to Australia.

Isn't that why Kidney picks token Ulstermen?

Sin é wrote:

greytiger wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

rodders wrote:

greytiger wrote:

rodders wrote:

Glas a du wrote:I did read it. How many times must BOD prove himself? The guy is class, all he had to do was prove he still had it, he has.

+ 1

That answers nothing in terms of the rôle of Lions captain as you see it.

What I say is
Worthy of touring? - yes
Worthy of being Tour Captain? - yes
Worthy of automatic test selection? - no.

Who ticks the 3 boxes in your opinion?

I would say BOD is closer to a yes in the final box than any of the current home nations captains. In fact I think bar Sexton and perhaps Healy he's as close to an automatic pick as there is available.

Best is the only player that ticks all 3 boxes,
BoD for me will tour but hes not guarented to start, on current form yes, but there are challangers to the shirt.

Best has pencilled his name for the number 2 shirt, Took over Ireland Captaincy for Ireland durning the Last 6 Nations, has the respect of the players as a leader.

Currently for me Best is the only player that ticks all 3 boxes, if Bod keeps this form, then by end of 6 nations he may tick them all as well.

I'd agree that Best if all boxes have to be ticked is in a good position at this point in the 6Ns although there are games to be played - particularly next Sunday.

But my argument is that the tour captain doesn't have to tick all the boxes.

The 1983 experience should not be repeated.

Thats an excellent point. The Lions Tour can always do with an Irishman as a scapegoat when everything gets messy. Not enough Irishmen to blame for the last tour to Australia.

Sort of proves my point Sin é,

It was generally held that the Lions captaincy was between Ciaran Fitzgerald (ire) and Peter Wheeler (eng) and in the final day of the 5Ns Ireland won their head-to-head and Fitzgerald got the job and because it was felt that the two were incompatible, Colin Deans (sco) was selected.

Because the captain was held sacrosanct, it would have mattered not how well or badly Wheeler had been, Deans, who proved himself on tour, still would never have been selected.

Are you making the point that if Colin Deans was the starting hooker, the Lions would have won that series?

Nope.
Just that the Lions skipper was/is held undroppable.

... except by host nation's players

That's a good one

I rate Best very highly, can't fault his game, extremely professional and about as near a starter as there is. I'm not particularly convinced by him as a Lions captain though, he'd certainly lead by example and would have the respect of the other players, but he's too nice a person to be the sort of captain that a Lions side up against it all will need. I'd prefer a captain with a bit more venom and indomitable verve about him. Then there is that hooker is a position that doesn't usually stay on for the full 80.

Phillips then. Big game player. He has the eyes for it.

Heaslip.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/irish-news/captain-best-roundly-praised-by-green-army-full-of-leaders-3046681.html

Maybe not a Captain with venom and indomitable verve as mbernz wants, but I don't think any of the likiey Captains have that, BOD Heaslip, Warbutton etc don't.

He does however command the respect of the players around him,

"I think his leadership from day one in the camp, all those weeks ago alongside Paul O'Connell, has been great. He's helped out Paul in the last numbers of weeks and he was the perfect man to come in there and lead us out there today," said Ferris.
"He just says what everyone needs to hear. He doesn't say an awful lot but what he does sinks in. When he needed to say something he did; if nothing needed to be said he just got on with his job.

"There were a lot of leaders out there."

Best will be one of the leaders on the pitch, no matter what happens, but I think he would be a very good selection to be the tour captain as well.

However we don't all agree what a tour captains role is?

For me should be someone very likily to start each game, respected by the other players, acts a a go between from management to players, raises players issues with coaches and vice vera, leads the team on and off the pitch.

The media stuff, interviews etc is less important, and if they can assign someone else for this PR and take it of the Captains shoulders then the better. Best maybe isn't the type of Captain the media would love, but if BoD fills in this role and leads the backs (if he starts), then I'd be very happy with that.

pbuk0 wrote:Do the Lions have to pick a Captain before going on tour?? Why don't they have a Captain on a Match by Match basis and pick the Test Captain the week before the first test... This will ensure the Captain is first choice in his position and also give Gatland time to decide after spending quality time with all his squad..

Yes. The media build-up etc. is crucial to the marketing success of the tour.

Those who think the Lions is a rugby contest are 30 years out of date. It is a marketing circus designed to transfer as much money as possible out of NH pockets. The choice of captain is absoultely key to the marketability of the Lions and Rory Best for all his qualities as an honest human being and great rugby player just doesn't fit the criteria. Most people outside Ireland wouldn't recognise him and most rugby fans don't rate him - including plenty in Ireland.

England is the biggest market so a decent wholehearted Englishman like Robshaw is in with a shout. However he made some decision howlers as recently as November, and got slated by his own media which has irretrievably tainted his brand for this series.

BOD is used to dealing with the media and getting his photo taken. Chat shows would love to be interviewing him, and he is very recognisable - just the sort of brand the Lions would love to promote. It really doesn't matter whether he's the best in his position or not on the rugby field, he's good enough.

Mr Bounce wrote:Heaslip.

All four HN skippers are back-rowers.

[Why] Do the Lions have to pick a Captain before going on tour?

Precedent, protcol, tradition, players' mouthpiece/spokesman, blah-de-blah etc. pbuk.

Mr Bounce wrote:Heaslip.

Heaslips terrible haircut should be enough to rule him out.

I would pick Robshaw as captain. He is quiet, reserved and well spoken and doesn't seem to revel in the media circus that normally follows an England Captian. However when on the pitch he is passionate, aggresive and leads from the front.

With every interview and game I see Robshaw involved in, his stock goes up for me. He seems like a genuinly nice guy and an intense competitor.

He reminds me a lot of the last Openside Flanker Lions Captain, who captained the Lions to Victory in 89.

Finlay Calder is a similar player to Robshaw and has a similar attitude, and I think Robshaw would be the best man to get the team together, gel and play for each other in such a short space of time.

BOD is great captain material, but his interview before the Wales match smacked a bit of spitting the dummy out, not once id he recognise the abilities of Heaslip and say he was the best man for the job, it was almost as if he expected the captaincy by default when he came back into the Irish Squad. He also needs to survive the 6N...

Best is also a contender, however his lineout wasn't the best of the Weekend, with a couple of throws going awry and he got himself binned.

Robshaw is currently leading the charge IMO.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
BOD is great captain material, but his interview before the Wales match smacked a bit of spitting the dummy out, not once id he recognise the abilities of Heaslip and say he was the best man for the job, it was almost as if he expected the captaincy by default when he came back into the Irish Squad. He also needs to survive the 6N...

Maybe because Heaslip isn't the best man for the job......

rodders wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
BOD is great captain material, but his interview before the Wales match smacked a bit of spitting the dummy out, not once id he recognise the abilities of Heaslip and say he was the best man for the job, it was almost as if he expected the captaincy by default when he came back into the Irish Squad. He also needs to survive the 6N...

Maybe because Heaslip isn't the best man for the job......

What makes you say that? Heaslip played well on Saturday and wasn't really called on to make any captain decisions.

BOD looked bitter for not being picked as Captain but Heaslip did nothing in BOD's absence to warrant being stripped of the captaincy.

"Just because BOD is back" doesn't quite cut it as a reason to strip Heaslip of the captaincy.

Heaslip was stand in captain in BOD and O'Connells absence, the question was did he do enough to retain it against a guy who is Irelands greatest ever player and captain? Not in my opinion.

Heaslip had a decent game on Saturday but BOD,Best, Sexton and Donnacha Ryan were the leaders out there imo. Heaslip is not captaincy material imo and I suspect BOD knows this too.

rodders wrote:Heaslip was stand in captain in BOD and O'Connells absence, the question was did he do enough to retain it against a guy who is Irelands greatest ever player and captain? Not in my opinion.

Heaslip had a decent game on Saturday but BOD,Best, Sexton and Donnacha Ryan were the leaders out there imo. Heaslip is not captaincy material imo and I suspect BOD knows this too.

Whether he knows of Heaslips weakness or not is irrelevant. He should be throwing his support behind his captain 100%. BOD was MOTM on Saturday and he deserved it, he was again outstanding. He and Conrad Smith are the best 13s of our generation.

But he did come down a notch or 2 in my estimations by his rather cool dismissal of Heaslip as captain for the 6N. It seemed juvenile and to be honest if I were Heaslip I would be a wee bit wee'd off that BOD was being such a rabble-rouser.

Heaslip is a good player and is a natural successor to Ireland's captiancy. BOD should be guiding guys like Heaslip and or Sexton instead of being petulant.