Ireland Vs Scotland - Injurymageddan vs Resurgence

First topic message reminder :

UPDATED - Ireland 29 Man Squad Announced:

Hooker- Rory Best, Sean Cronin,
Props- David Kilcoyne, Tom Court, Mike Ross, Declan Fitzpatrick,

Second Row- Donnacha Ryan, Donncha O'Callaghan, Ian Henderson, Lewis Stevenson, Devin Toner
Backrow - Jamie Heaslip, Sean O'Brien, Peter O'Mahony, Chris Henry, James Coughlan,

Scrumhalf - Conor Murray, Eoin Reddan,
Flyhalf- Ronan O'Gara, Paddy Jackson,

Centre- Brian O'Driscoll, Keith Earls, Luke Marshall, Darren Cave,
Wings- Craig Gilroy, Fergus McFadden, Luke Fitzgerald,
FullBack- Rob Kearney, Robin Henshaw

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So with Darcy now out, where will Deccie be forced to go? I think we all realize he will go with ROG and use the Darcy injury as even more excuse to stay with a “wise” old head at outhalf. Below I put in what I believe Deccie will put down as the starting line-up and below that my selection. Just to clarify, either team is capable of beating Scotland as we all know that we can show up and randomly, erraticly beat nearly anyone, but I believe my team has the benefit of win or lose being a team that starts to prove out whether the young players we all have such hopes for can do a job for us.

Deccie (Total Starting Caps, 663, 363 Backs, 300 Forwards)
15 Kearney (43)
14 McFadden (16)
13 Earls (36)
12 O’Driscoll (122)
11 Gilroy (3)
10 ROG (127)
9 Murray (16)
8 Heaslip (54)
7 SOB (24)
6 POM (11)
5 Ryan (25)
4 DOC (92)
3 Ross (26)
2 Best (64)
1 Kilcoyne (4)

16 Cronin (24), 17 Court (29), 18 Fitzpatrick (4), 19 Henderson (2), 20 Henry (6), 21 Reddan (48), 22 Jackson (0), 23 Fitz (49)
Bench Caps: 162

Me (Total Starting Caps, 394, 207 Backs, 187 Forwards)
15 Kearney (43)
14 Earls (36)
13 O’Driscoll (122)
12 Marshall (0)
11 Gilroy (3)
10 Madigan (0)
9 Murray (16)
8 POM (11)
7 Henry (6)
6 SOB (24)
5 Ryan (25)
4 Henderson (2)
3 Ross (26)
2 Best (64)
1 Court (29)


16 Cronin (24), 17 Kilcoyne (4), 18 Fitzpatrick (4), 19 DOC (92), 20 Heaslip (54), 21 Reddan (48), 22 Jackson (0), 23 McFadden (16)
Bench Caps: 242

funnyExiledScot wrote:He's a freak! To be that powerful and yet still so athletic is a rare gift.

Shame his family aren't Catholic, we could have used 5 or 6 of them!

How's his brother coming along?

Saw he was starting for Glasgow this weekend, at flanker?

Vedder - ickle Jonny started as lock.

He's only 6'6" and 120kg but it's all right. He's only 19, so still plenty of growing time left.

I saw an interview with their mum (who's tiny, of course) and she said that Jonny was a better all round footballer than his bro at school. Game on.

Sorry, thought it was flank!

God, he's a big boy already isn't he?

Funnily, I've heard that he's actually a better player, and I think it was from an interview with Richie! Unbelievable potential if it's true. They could be a formidable pairing in the future.

funnyExiledScot wrote:He's a freak! To be that powerful and yet still so athletic is a rare gift.

Shame his family aren't Catholic, we could have used 5 or 6 of them!

I think we should breed him with Rebecca Adlington. In 20 years we could have a team of worldbeaters

funnyExiledScot wrote:Well I'm 6ft 3 and managed to carry all the shopping up the hill from Stockbridge yesterday, only having to put it down once for a breather.

Eat your heart out Richie!

Yeah. I opened a bag of crisps at the first attempt at the weekend. No undignified straining for me.

Beg for mercy, Richie boy.

From ESPN Scrum today:
Scotland boss Scott Johnson has added 13 players to his squad ahead of this weekend's Six Nations match versus Ireland.

Due to the match being played on a Sunday, Euan Murray misses out due to his Christian faith, but Johnson has retained the other 22 who played against Italy.

Additional players:

Forwards: Jon Welsh, Dougie Hall, Tom Ryder, John Barclay (all Glasgow Warriors), Alasdair Dickinson and Richie Vernon (Sale Sharks), Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh Rugby)

Backs: Sean Kennedy, Alex Dunbar, Peter Horne, Peter Murchie (all Glasgow Warriors), Tom Heathcote (Bath Rugby), Nikki Walker (Worcester Warriors).

The Scotland team to play Ireland is due to be announced on Wednesday.

Some I expected, but Nikki Walker?? Plus why Barclay and no Wilson? Good to see Dunbar's been called though, I expect to at least see him on the bench v Ireland.

Presumably Denton covers Beattie and Barclay covers Harley ?

alive555 wrote:Presumably Denton covers Beattie and Barclay covers Harley ?

Aye, I'd have thought Wilson would have at least merited a call up to the training squad though!

Thought Wilson and Swinson both deserve a call up but I'm sure their time will come soon.

Ryder and Gilchrist ahead of Swinson is frankly bizarre, as is the inclusion of Vernon ahead of Wilson (outrageous in fact).

Murchie ahead of Tonks continues to confuse me.

Also don't see the point in Nikki Walker (generally) - if we lose a winger then Sean Lamont moves to the wing and either Horne or Dunbar come in at centre. Perhaps SJ wants him in the squad for comedy value.

Barclay I'm pleased about - we need to get an openside back in the squad. I'd personally have him on the bench ahead of Denton.

Hope SJ takes a sensible approach to releasing players for the Glasgow fixture.

How does the player release thing work fES - getting worried now re Friday's crunch with Ulster.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Also don't see the point in Nikki Walker ... Perhaps SJ wants him in the squad for comedy value.

Hey, that's unfair FES. Nikki really showed his pace while carrying the water on against Italy. Unfortunately, when a thirsty player would shift slightly to the left or right, Nikki just sailed onwards, his bulk carrying him inexorably into contact with the biggest Italian forward.

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:How does the player release thing work fES - getting worried now re Friday's crunch with Ulster.

I don't know precisely - I don't think it's an exact science.

Presumably SJ will name his matchday 23 on Wednesday and release everyone else, possibly holding back an extra player or two if needed for injury cover.

I think you'll get a fair few players back. I suspect you'll get at least one of Dunbar and Horne back and one of Hall and MacArthur. I think you'll get Tom Ryder back as well, and Sean Kennedy. You'll get Murchie back as well.

Not sure about John Barclay though. I'd want him in the 23 if I were Scott Johnson.

I'd like to see;

15 - Hogg
14 - Maitland
13 - Lamont
12 - Scott
11 - Visser
10 - Jackson
9 - Laidlaw
8 - Beattie
7 - Brown
6 - Harley
5 - Hamilton
4 - Gray
3 - Low
2 - Ford
1 - Grant

16 - MacArthur
17 - Welsh
18 - Cross
19 - Gilchrist
20 - Denton
21 - Prygos
22 - Heathcote
23 - Dunbar


Murchie, Seymour, Bennett, Horne, DTH, Weir, Matawalu, Wilson, Barclay, Strauss, Kellock, Swinson, Kalman, Hall, Reid

Price, Ofa, Allan, Ryder, Eddie, Kennedy, Wright, Lamont

Gray to captain u20s.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Good video here showing what Richie Gray does in his workouts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exV52ztynJY

That's quite a lot of weight on that bar!

Coming from a weightlifting/powerlifting background to rugby I can safely say that I didn't see a single squat done in that video

cakeordeath wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Good video here showing what Richie Gray does in his workouts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exV52ztynJY

That's quite a lot of weight on that bar!

Coming from a weightlifting/powerlifting background to rugby I can safely say that I didn't see a single squat done in that video

I appreciate he's 6'10" and has a long way to travel, but I agree. It's still impressive strength but half squats all round.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Good video here showing what Richie Gray does in his workouts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exV52ztynJY

That's quite a lot of weight on that bar!

Looking at the weights, I can see that he's actually lifting the equivalent of two IanBrus.

Jesus, that's depressing.

reallybored wrote:I'd like to see;

15 - Hogg
14 - Maitland
13 - Lamont
12 - Scott
11 - Visser
10 - Jackson
9 - Laidlaw
8 - Beattie
7 - Brown
6 - Harley
5 - Hamilton
4 - Gray
3 - Low
2 - Ford
1 - Grant

16 - MacArthur
17 - Welsh
18 - Cross
19 - Gilchrist
20 - Denton
21 - Prygos
22 - Heathcote
23 - Dunbar

I'm very happy with that starting XV - exactly what I would pick. Yes, Welsh was good on Friday, but he's only just back from injury, and I'd stick with Low.

However, if we're really dropping Kellock (and I'm not so sure that we should), surely a greater argument can be made for bringing in Swinson or Ryder? Both were excellent last week, Swinson in particular. I can certainly see potential in Gilchrist, and he has been Edinburgh's stand-out forward this year, but that hardly qualifies anyone to play on the international stage. In any case, Kellock is a lineout man, and one area where we can really target the Irish pack is in the lineout.. He doesn't do a lot more (though his carrying has improved considerably in the last year).

Secondly, I'm sorely tempted to bring in Barclay on the bench. While he doesn't really play any position other than openside, Brown, Harley and Beattie can all shift to accommodate injuries, with Barclay slotting in at 7. The Ireland match is the one fixture this year where we need to have the option of bringing on a dedicated fetcher if the Irish start bossing the breakdown. Being stuck with three blindsides isn't really the way to win.

Other than that, we're sweet.

IanBru wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Also don't see the point in Nikki Walker ... Perhaps SJ wants him in the squad for comedy value.

Hey, that's unfair FES. Nikki really showed his pace while carrying the water on against Italy. Unfortunately, when a thirsty player would shift slightly to the left or right, Nikki just sailed onwards, his bulk carrying him inexorably into contact with the biggest Italian forward.

There have been 13 Six Nations contests between Ireland and Scotland.

Ireland have won 11 of these.

Suck it up, my paddy brethren. You are still favourites for this one.

Because of that history Ireland will be favourites. However this ( especially after the injuries) is not as strong an Ireland team as some and Scotland are finally showing signs of getting it together so I think it will be close and a Scotland win is more than a possibility

This is definitely underhand tactics by the Irish - make it out that we are the favourites, because they know Scotland can't cope with being favourites and crumble under the pressure!

Lads, I think you are doing that to yourselves!

I'm sorry to be the old wet blanket but folk really are getting carried away with the Italy win

Yes the tries scored were great. Yes we scored more tries than in a long long time, but remember we only had around 30% of possesion.

Italy, god bless them, made us look good. They were totally woeful. If we carry on with 30% possesion or territory against a team like Ireland (even with thier injuries) then we are going to struggle big time.

I always beleive that Scotland can win the game, but I'm not going to be hopping on any bandwagon just yet. Ireland are no slouches and I would not classify one win (where the tries were really against the run of play) as a "resurgance"

I’m confused – can’t remember anyone on here saying we were going to win this easy??

p.s. happy to be proven wrong!

Well it wasn't me. I think we'll lose this one, and have said so consistently.

We're all doomed!!

I do however think we will beat the giant sea mammals! but thats for another thread

"Injurymageddan vs Resurgence"

Do we get to wear skin tight costumes, fight crime and get the girl?

or is this a celebrity death match

How quickly things change: the two main concerns emerging here seem to be (a) are we too confident?
(b) will Glasgow manage to beat the table toppers and stay on course for a home play-off tie?
Tiger is probably right in the sense that the four tries against Italy have papered over a few cracks, 30% possession against better teams could see us gubbed. However, the same XV (Low for the Rev) should start against the Oirish and should have too much pace in the backs and grunt up front.
The interesting thing for me will be SJ's bench choices. This is one area where we can have a genuine advantage. Kidney will probably cobble together a decent starting line up but it's the bench where his lack of alternatives will really show. SJ should be looking to move the play up a notch rather than safe like for like replacements. Whisper it, dynamic mobile props who can really target tired defenders in the loose. We know who I allude to but shall not name. Line out specialists to disrupt their ball at the expense of weight in the scrum, see previous sentence. Genuine attacking centres rather than converted wingers, ditto.
If SJ really believes in the squad then we might see a very exciting last 30 minutes but I think we'll see Welsh, Gilchcrist, Denton replace Low, Hamilton, Beattie just to keep the screws on the Oirish pack.
Either way this is an outstanding chance to build on the Italy result and set the mood for the Wales game (which will be a cracker because I've got tickets)

I really doubt Gilchrist will overtake Kellock for this fixture, and I suspect Denton might be dropped as well.

Even if Denton is on the bench, worryingly SJ felt that he was better placed to replace Brown against Italy rather than Beattie. Hopefully that was just a case of game won let's not risk a silly injury to the captain, but it completely messed up our balance in the back row and in my view attributed to the Italian try, where I don't think the back row were particularly attuned to their respective defensive duties.

I do think Welsh ought to be on the bench though, although I can't help but feel the might Dickinson may sneak in ahead. Good news for Glasgow, not good news for Scotland.

Oh Jesus, I've got that bloody feeling again.

You know the one, guys. The feeling that nags at the back of your mind, whispering, "Scotland could win this..." and filling your head with images of slick offloads and broken defensive lines...

[swats at ear]

GO AWAY!!

IanBru wrote:Oh Jesus, I've got that bloody feeling again.

You know the one, guys. The feeling that nags at the back of your mind, whispering, "Scotland could win this..." and filling your head with images of slick offloads and broken defensive lines...

[swats at ear]

GO AWAY!!

Me too! In fact it's been so strong, that after the Italy game I went and splashed out for Ireland tickets.

Ianbru/ Glove
You should try being Welsh. We get that every game. No matter who we play or what kind of form we're in.
You get used to it after a few decades or so. Not even a really bad summer series or autumn can dispel it, I think we all need a course of anti psychotics this time of year.

Debuts at 10 and 12. 4 of our first choice pack missing. Scotland should rightly be confident seeing they are at home and Glasgow are beginning to help create a feel good factor in Scottish rugby.

If it was against any of the other sides I would be delighted with a Scottish win. As it is ye can bugger off!

I'm holding my breath until team announcement tomorrow.

Opinion, bench could be make or break for Scotland, they're the least likely bunch to be suffering from complacency.

I think and hope we'll just edge it.

Either way if we win, I'll be delighted! Back to the drawing board if we lose.

IanBru / Glove

I'm the other way, I was always going to the Ireland game, I was impressed by the Italy game. Now I have that sinking feeling in my stomach that I will be driving from London to Edinburgh, paying a small fortune for my hotel and to attend a stag do on the Saturday to end up watching a bunch of undoubtedly talented Scottish players take to the field with the attitude that says: "What a bunch of slick f#@kers we were against Italy and Ireland have sooooo many injuries so this is going to be easy!" and then lose by a record margin. If this happens I may well decide to give my debenchers back to the SRU in desperation.

Scottish rugby has had too many false dawns in the past 14 odd years, we now have the players to do well but for too long attitude has let us down. I live in hope that we can continue to improve but until I see sustained proof of this I will remain sceptical.

I actually feel that I am becoming a little bit schizo

I go from quietly wanting to discuss rugby in the office, as finally we have a few players worth talking about, to quietly wanting to hide away and dismiss our win as one shot wonder with only 30% of possession

I really do not know how to feel any more. I want us to win, but do not want us to raise expectations

I want us to get to the top half of the table - but do not want to show ourselves as one offers

I want to be proud, but do not want to be arrogant

I want to sing the virtues of Scotland Rugby, but do not want to look too closely at how it is hanging together like a thread



Oh the 6 nations, nothing quite like it

Its the hope that makes supporting Scotland so difficult. They do enough from time to time to think a corner may....well not quite turned, but at least approaching the corner, and then we get horsed.

I don't think we'll beat Ireland, despite their injuries, they still have a very good squad and as tiger (i think) called out, the Italy result did paper over the cracks a bit.

With that said, we have a chance, and if the players play to their potential then you never know.

I’m really not reading much into that 30% stat - I’d say that was heavily influenced by the 2nd half, where we were so far ahead and were happy to let them have ball and try to break us down. I’m pretty sure if the scoreline had been closer the possession stats would have been a lot different.

RDW_Scotland wrote:I’m really not reading much into that 30% stat - I’d say that was heavily influenced by the 2nd half, where we were so far ahead and were happy to let them have ball and try to break us down. I’m pretty sure if the scoreline had been closer the possession stats would have been a lot different.

Like RDW said, I wouldn't look at stats. Look at last years and we lead the stats in most games apart from one - the score line. Last year, going on "Mins in Possession" on rbs6nations.com Ireland had 38% we had 49% - score?

When are the teams announced? I am tired of checking Tw@tter.

lunchtime I believe, so about 13:00.

cp10 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:I’m really not reading much into that 30% stat - I’d say that was heavily influenced by the 2nd half, where we were so far ahead and were happy to let them have ball and try to break us down. I’m pretty sure if the scoreline had been closer the possession stats would have been a lot different.

Like RDW said, I wouldn't look at stats. Look at last years and we lead the stats in most games apart from one - the score line. Last year, going on "Mins in Possession" on rbs6nations.com Ireland had 38% we had 49% - score?

Absolutely bang on. Robinson used to always hark on about possession and line breaks as if rugby was merely some statistical formula. Possession doesn't matter one jot if you can't convert chances.

Italy had plenty of the ball but they were simply picking and driving sideways. It was taking them over 10 phases to make ground, and ultimately we were patient enough to wait for the opportunity and turn them over. Preying off opposition mistakes. It's what the SH have been doing to us for decades, and you never heard them whine about their possession stats as some kind of mitigating factor.

The score board is all the matters. Italy made mistakes as a result of the pressure our defence put on them, and we capitalised. The reason they had more of the ball is that they were slow and ponderous with it, like we used to be. It's easy to hog possession if you simply use a bunch of big forwards going sideways. We used to do that all the time. Pointless - literally.

Scotland v Ireland team for Sun (2pm):

BACKS: Stuart Hogg; Sean Maitland, Sean Lamont, Matt Scott, Tim Visser, Ruaridh Jackson &Greig Laidlaw

FORWARDS: Ryan Grant, Ross Ford, Geoff Cross, Richie Gray, Jim Hamilton, Rob Harley, Kelly Brown (C) & Johnnie Beattie

SUBS: Doug Hall, Jon Welsh, Moray Low, Al Kellock, David Denton, Henry Pyrgos, Duncan Weir & Max Evans.

Wait that can't be right, they've only named one replacement prop!

Edit: twitter feed missed out Jon Welsh

Pat_Mustard wrote:Wait that can't be right, they've only named one replacement prop!

Edit: twitter feed missed out Jon Welsh

That's how over-confident we scots are now, we only need one extra prop

So Cross to start, Welsh onto the bench the only change. Fair enough, would have hoped for Dunbar ahead of Evans but suspected that wouldn't happen. Low might have started ahead of Cross but not much in it. Thought Barclay would have come in for Denton too. Good news for Glasgow though!
Actually Hall is back in for MacArthur too, not sure about that but all in all no major complaints.

with regards to the team though: O dear god, 3 games in a row with only one change in each game?! What madness is this?! Consistency?! Blasphemy Blasphemy!

Scotland team (sponsor RBS) to play Ireland in the RBS 6 Nations Championship on Sunday 24 February at Murrayfield (kick-off 2pm)
15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) 12 caps, 3 tries, 15 points
14 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors) 2 caps, 1 try, 5 points
13 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors) 73 caps, 9 tries, 45 points
12 Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby) 9 caps, 1 try, 5 points
11 Tim Visser (Edinburgh Rugby) 7 caps, 5 tries, 25 points
10 Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow Warriors) 17 caps, 2 conversions, 2 penalties, 2 drop-goals, 16 points
9 Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby) vice-captain, 15 caps, 2 tries, 16 conversions and 26 penalties, 120 points
1 Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors) vice-captain, 7 caps
2 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) 65 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
3 Geoff Cross (Edinburgh Rugby) 18 caps, 1 try, 5 points
4 Richie Gray (Sale Sharks) 29 caps, 1 try, 5 points
5 Jim Hamilton (Gloucester) 43 caps, 1 try, 5 points
6 Robert Harley (Glasgow Warriors) 2 caps, 1 try, 5 points
7 Kelly Brown (Saracens) captain, 54 caps, 4 tries, 20 points
8 Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier) 18 caps, 3 tries, 15 points

Substitutes

16 Dougie Hall (Glasgow Warriors), 40 caps, 1 try, 5 points
17 Jon Welsh (Glasgow Warriors), 1 cap
18 Moray Low (Glasgow Warriors) 16 caps
19 Alastair Kellock (Glasgow Warriors) 49 caps, 1 try, 5 points
20 David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby) 11 caps
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors) 5 caps, 1 try, 5 points
22 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors) 2 caps, 1 conversion, 2 points
23 Max Evans (Castres) 34 caps, 3 tries, 15 points

http://www.scottishrugby.org/content/view/3433/2/

I'm happy. Too early for Welshy and Barcs (even though I think they would be stronger than Cross and Dents as bench options). Bring it on. Now really is the time to step up boys.