Ewen McKenzie touted as next Ireland coach.

Well more than touted as apparently a senior IRFU official has said that he will be the next Ireland coach.

He won the World Cup in 1991 as a prop playing for Australia. He is currently the main man at Queensland Reds but it is believed that he has no chance of coaching Australia after Robbie Deans on the basis that an ARU board member said....

"As long as my backside is pointing to the ground, Ewen McKenzie will not coach Australia. You cannot have a front-row forward in charge of the Wallabies because they know nothing about backline play."

So he's been told he can't coach Australia on account of being a prop, but his goal is to become an international test level coach, which is where the vacant Ireland head coach role comes in.

What do Ireland fans think if this appointment came to be?

http://www.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/story/178989.html

I've actually met McKenzie and thought that he was a Good Un.

He took a disperate squad of squabbling Queeslanders to the Super 15 title and his coaching at club level was very, very successful too. He would be an excellent coach and players like Higgenbotham and Genia have frequently spoken about how terrific they think he is.

Hard to see it as anything other than a good appointment. And who gives a flying proverbial if he was a prop or not??

Reunion is touting this also tonight. The ARU dont want McKenzie as the next Oz coach. Greg Crowden from Sydney's picking the announcement next week or two...very good coach...

I suppose this means Jake White gets the Australia job and McKenzie goes to Ireland?

The Reds play some pretty good rugby I thought? If he oversaw them I'm good with him in Ireland.

I think our potential success is rooted in inventive, creative back play which roots itself in having good skills, running good lines and having vision.

There are a lot of international players in Ireland who do not fit that bill and I would hope will either change/adapt or be cast off from the international scene.

If this lad can get us playing like that (which is what I think the Reds play like) then I would be delighted.

Looks pretty likely now becuase he has just confirmed that he is leaving the Reds this season.

Im not too excited about this. The Reds have not been great this season.

Reds have had a lot of injuries this year, including Will Genia. Ironic that the comment attributed to an ARU member mentioned McKenzie won't coach the Wallabies because he can't get backs moving. Reds won the championship in part because of creative backs play.

Heard the ARU won't give him the top job because they don't think a front row forward is knowledgable enough of the game (esp. back play) to coach at the highest level. (just read others in post saying the same thing.... crazy idealogy still).

Have they seen the reds play?

Would be slightly ironic if they gave Jake White the job then... a former hooker whose highest playing honour was 1st XV rugby at his school.. and not a good one either.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Looks pretty likely now becuase he has just confirmed that he is leaving the Reds this season.

Im not too excited about this. The Reds have not been great this season.

I'm fecken thrilled. Who would you prefer to big Link? He is the first name I have seen that I would get excited about, given that Joe Schmidt and Conor O'Se would not be interested.

He has no provincial baggage, and I hope he would be given free reign to bring his team and not saddled with any of the current team. (He may WANT to bring Kiss in as they have history together)

Friend of Les Kiss as well

We need an outsider desperately.

The only Irishmen close to being good enough are not interested and it is too early for them. In the future a O'Shea/McCall combo would be good but a few years down the line not now.

Would be much happier if brought along his head coach, Richard Graham. Really don't like the idea of Kiss remaining.

A little on Graham:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.redsrugby.com.au%2FReds%2FStaff%2FRichardGraham.aspx&ei=8EJIUe38AaGu0QXU9oGYDA&usg=AFQjCNFHI8-XswxPQrflx6s6rTqppjhv1A&sig2=2OLQHQ5KsnxCU98lCUGfhg&bvm=bv.43828540,d.d2k

The Reds have already announced Graham will be their next head coach when McKenzie steps down. You can bet your bottom dollar Kiss will be on the coaching ticket. If he is defence coach then I'd be happy- he did an excellent job there. His defence was more aggressive and more proactive than Foley's passive tactics that allow the opponents to run at us all day long. If Kiss is attack coach again then its two thumbs down

Yes... if he were to show up, he'd have to be given his choices of who he takes onboard. You can't have a head coach being 'introduced' to his written-in-stone contract secure lieutenants.

I assume, given he's a forward, that he chooses wisely in the attack coaching department. We can't afford anymore bluffs in that area. Next coach must get our backs (and forwards actually!) more creatively into the game, I've watched enough Mr Kiss Kiss Bang Bang stuff from the Irish. We need a new song.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:The Reds have already announced Graham will be their next head coach when McKenzie steps down. You can bet your bottom dollar Kiss will be on the coaching ticket. If he is defence coach then I'd be happy- he did an excellent job there. His defence was more aggressive and more proactive than Foley's passive tactics that allow the opponents to run at us all day long. If Kiss is attack coach again then its two thumbs down

Yep, it makes sense that Graham would remain with Reds, but better for Ireland that he come over with McKenzie (assuming McKenzie is def' coming over).
I agree on Kiss, but who would be attack coach if not him?

If you have a moron stroke in you you might enjoy Connor George's 'analysis' that whoever the coach is they should keep Kidney's staff for continuity.

Anyway, I'm sceptical about this news. I think McKenzie is using us to scare the ARU into giving him the Aussie job. One board member saying that he would get it over his dead body means nothing. Some ARU members publicly voiced their opposition to the potential appointment of Robbie Deans and called for him to be sacked after the World Cup. How did that work out?

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:If you have a moron stroke in you you might enough Connor George's 'analysis' that whoever the coach is they should keep Kidney's staff for continuity.

That would fly in the face of all those who continually say that Kidney was never the problem in the first place as he was never the practical tactical coach.... just a motivational one. So, I'm thinking one, two or three of his underlings must be responsible for the onfield stuff. Much too risky to retain any of them in my opinion. We Have to get this next selections right - it's the one that will take us to yet another WC, and we've done enough implosions at that event.

Munchkin, it might be better but it is not a goer. Graham has already been announced as the Reds head coach for 2014. If McKenzie doesn't get an international job then he will move upstairs to be director of rugby.

If he is appointed (and I doubt it) then he would surely know that Kiss is an excellent defence coach and a pretty poor attack coach. It's what Kiss has done for years before Kidney decided to change it. McKenzie could just pick whoever he wanted as attack/backs coach.

[i][quote="Hookisms and Hyperbole"]If you have a moron stroke in you you might enjoy Connor George's 'analysis' that whoever the coach is they should keep Kidney's staff for continuity.

Anyway, I'm sceptical about this news. I think McKenzie is using us to scare the ARU into giving him the Aussie job. One board member saying that he would get it over his dead body means nothing. Some ARU members publicly voiced their opposition to the potential appointment of Robbie Deans and called for him to be sacked after the World Cup. How did that work out?[/quote]
[/i]

I wouldn't be convinced either, but I have a different twist on it. Maybe this has been leaked out in order to strengthen Ireland's bargaining power with another choice. Maybe Joe Schmidt?

I wouldn't give any real credence to whatever Connor George has to say.

SecretFly wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:If you have a moron stroke in you you might enough Connor George's 'analysis' that whoever the coach is they should keep Kidney's staff for continuity.

That would fly in the face of all those who continually say that Kidney was never the problem in the first place as he was never the practical tactical coach.... just a motivational one. So, I'm thinking one, two or three of his underlings must be responsible for the onfield stuff. Much too risky to retain any of them in my opinion. We Have to get this next selections right - it's the one that will take us to yet another WC, and we've done enough implosions at that event.

Kiss did a good job with Ireland's defence. Of course when you do something well you should be replaced and put into a position you have never fulfilled at the highest level. It makes perfect sense if your name is Declan Kidney.

Joe Schmidt as Ireland's head coach is cloudy at best. He says he wanted to return to New Zealand after the end of next season, no doubt he wants to move himself into the All Black reckoning by getting a Super 15 franchise job. However, is there actually a job there for him? Would he not be better to be involved with Ireland to increase his chances of a future job in NZ ala Gatland, Smith, Henry and many others. Also, he has not ruled himself out of the job like Connor O'Shea. Would he be interested in being part of the back room staff to Vern Cotter which would mean he could in theory move home to New Zealand and live in Ireland during international training camps and run up to tournaments? I am not convinced he is completely out of the running yet.

McKenzie sounds like he's keen on Aus job:

http://m.watoday.com.au/breaking-news-sport/i-am-ready-for-wallabies-mckenzie-20130319-2gbqe.html

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:If you have a moron stroke in you you might enough Connor George's 'analysis' that whoever the coach is they should keep Kidney's staff for continuity.

That would fly in the face of all those who continually say that Kidney was never the problem in the first place as he was never the practical tactical coach.... just a motivational one. So, I'm thinking one, two or three of his underlings must be responsible for the onfield stuff. Much too risky to retain any of them in my opinion. We Have to get this next selections right - it's the one that will take us to yet another WC, and we've done enough implosions at that event.

Kiss did a good job with Ireland's defence. Of course when you do something well you should be replaced and put into a position you have never fulfilled at the highest level. It makes perfect sense if your name is Declan Kidney.

Well...yep...but sometimes I feel there are personality clashes which disrupt true progress. If you have a dominant defensive personality, the attack coach might feel he's not being given the players to develop attack, if you get my meaning - I don't want to name names. If you're not being given players and time within an 80 minute period to develop real attacking patterns (which actually involve all fifteen players) because a dominant defensive coach wants to showboat his coaching skills for longer..... well, then I truly believe you end up with a side like Ireland are currently.

I think forward/defensive orientated personel have too big an influence right now and even if a wise attacking coach enters the fray, will he be strong enough in personality to demand a bigger investment in attack through an 80 minute period?

Ireland needs a tough and resolute attack coach to demand more of a role on actual game days... I dread a bright new future of same-ol' Ireland. I dread it...and that's why I'm very cautious about all present Irish coaches. I'd hate to think Kidneyesque gameplans would survive because we retained the True hidden 'Kidneyesque' coach!

Is Robbie Deans a candidate for Ireland?

He is going to need a job if McKenzie has his eyes on Australia.

I saw he was leaving reds last night and immediately thought he might be a potential coach for Scotland, due to his past affiliation with some of Scotland's current coaching staff. But if he ends up at Ireland I think you'd have yourselves a great coach! Will be interesting to see where he ends up next

Stag, Deans would be my preferred candidate as well, with Cotter second (with Schmidt as assistant). Even if they beat the Lions Deans is done. Key people in the ARU have wanted him out for some time and he has McKenzie and Jake White quite publicly saying they want his job.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Stag, Deans would be my preferred candidate as well, with Cotter second (with Schmidt as assistant). Even if they beat the Lions Deans is done. Key people in the ARU have wanted him out for some time and he has McKenzie and Jake White quite publicly saying they want his job.

Deans is who I want definitely.

He will surely know Rob Penney (ex Canterbury coach) and Mark Anscombe (ex NZ U20s coach) and Pat Lam (ex Auckland Blues coach) from when he coached the Crusaders.

He also will have some idea of how things are done in Ireland from having ex Munster coaches Tony McGahan and Jim Williams on his Australian coaching team.

He is familiar enough with our system, he is distant enough to have no preconceived notions and he is experienced and qualified.

red_stag wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Stag, Deans would be my preferred candidate as well, with Cotter second (with Schmidt as assistant). Even if they beat the Lions Deans is done. Key people in the ARU have wanted him out for some time and he has McKenzie and Jake White quite publicly saying they want his job.

Deans is who I want definitely.

He will surely know Rob Penney (ex Canterbury coach) and Mark Anscombe (ex NZ U20s coach) and Pat Lam (ex Auckland Blues coach) from when he coached the Crusaders.

He also will have some idea of how things are done in Ireland from having ex Munster coaches Tony McGahan and Jim Williams on his Australian coaching team.

He is familiar enough with our system, he is distant enough to have no preconceived notions and he is experienced and qualified.

I think you may have mentioned this point before Stag but: he is also proven to be able to foster young talent and develop a new squad. He got the Aussies and completely ripped up the script, all of a sudden Matt Gitteau was done at 28 (?!). Deans has no fear about putting in the young guys and keeping them there for a bit.

I'd love Deans to coach us although he 100% would not be there for N.American tour.

McKenzie sounds like a good shout too however, he worked wonders at the Reds last year who were a creative and attacking team.

Vern Cotter would be my first choice.

Exactly my thoughts on Deans Pete and Stag. We could have a caretaker coaching setup in the North American tour with Ruddock. Given our opponents having him overseeing alot of inexperienced ad young players he coached at under 21 level would be ideal. Then appoint Deans after the Lions tour. The Aussie press are on his back but I think he has done a good job considering the players he has at his disposal. Pocock and Higginbotham aside he has a dismal pack but with an intelligent gameplan and fantastic backs he has probably overachieved in many respects. He would be a cracking job for us.

Is it true that the IRFU are announcing Kidney's future in 3 weeks?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Is it true that the IRFU are announcing Kidney's future in 3 weeks?

Apparently so. Kidney and his minions are meeting with a national review board I believe.

red_stag wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Is it true that the IRFU are announcing Kidney's future in 3 weeks?

Apparently so. Kidney and his minions are meeting with a national review board I believe.

Odd one in the independent I think it was: saying something about the coach needing to clear out all the backroom staff associated with Kidney to give the place a breath of fresh air. I wouldn't disagree with that. I also think an all-foreign coaching ticket would be a good thing, not sure there are any Irish influences that would be all that positive (O'Shea aside)

McKenzie sounds good. One thing I don't want to see is Les Kiss being kept on as backs coach.

If it is McKenzie, I hope he lays down some terms for the job - for a start putting an end to this nonsense where the coach has to report to a committee of blazers like Pa Whelan and Tom Grace who have never played or coached in the professional era. Don't think this sort of relationshipo exists in any other international team.

Also agree that he should bring in his own team - if that includes Kiss then he is confined to defensive coach - he hasn't a clue about being an attack coach

That would be an interesting apointment. McKensie obviously was a prop as a player so what Ireland really need is a backs coach. I wouldnt mind it to be honest though Id say he will most likely be the next Australia coach.

For me the dream ticket would be Vern Cotter head coach with Joe Schmidt backs coach.

GunsGerms wrote:That would be an interesting apointment. McKensie obviously was a prop as a player so what Ireland really need is a backs coach. I wouldnt mind it to be honest though Id say he will most likely be the next Australia coach.

For me the dream ticket would be Vern Cotter head coach with Joe Schmidt backs coach.

That one has the potential.... in my eyes too. I highlight the potential bit because you just never know with Ireland.

But to just go back to the...backs ...discussion for a sec. My point earlier was that you could say Kiss was useless in attack. And who'd argue with that one. But what was his predecessor like?

No I'm not talking about the non-existent guy we had for a time!!! I'm talking about Gaffney. Did he shine for Ireland either? I think my memory seems to say not overly so. Then you have the idea that O'Gara was blamed for kicking away ball too much before Sexton showed up and started repeating the act. O'Leary was told he was a box-kicking addict before Murray or Redden showed up to do pretty much the same.

We can blame the attack coach for not functioning but my point would be that attack coaching was never given the scope to function in the Ireland of recent years. So, if a new Head coach doesn't fully get his own way, and if lingerers with stubborn attitudes remain on board, who is to say new Ireland won't still devote far too much time to defending and breakdowns and scrums and falling into contact? We have to be careful where the old blueprint was coming from. Was it indeed all coming from Kidney? Let's just be careful we get rid of the right men and don't mistakenly hold on to the wrong ones.

SecretFly wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:That would be an interesting apointment. McKensie obviously was a prop as a player so what Ireland really need is a backs coach. I wouldnt mind it to be honest though Id say he will most likely be the next Australia coach.

For me the dream ticket would be Vern Cotter head coach with Joe Schmidt backs coach.

That one has the potential.... in my eyes too. I highlight the potential bit because you just never know with Ireland.

But to just go back to the...backs ...discussion for a sec. My point earlier was that you could say Kiss was useless in attack. And who'd argue with that one. But what was his predecessor like?

No I'm not talking about the non-existent guy we had for a time!!! I'm talking about Gaffney. Did he shine for Ireland either? I think my memory seems to say not overly so. Then you have the idea that O'Gara was blamed for kicking away ball too much before Sexton showed up and started repeating the act. O'Leary was told he was a box-kicking addict before Murray or Redden showed up to do pretty much the same.

We can blame the attack coach for not functioning but my point would be that attack coaching was never given the scope to function in the Ireland of recent years. So, if a new Head coach doesn't fully get his own way, and if lingerers with stubborn attitudes remain on board, who is to say new Ireland won't still devote far too much time to defending and breakdowns and scrums and falling into contact? We have to be careful where the old blueprint was coming from. Was it indeed all coming from Kidney? Let's just be careful we get rid of the right men and don't mistakenly hold on to the wrong ones.

I agree with this to an extent. I think Kidney placed emphasis on defending (got a bit of a track record for lovin the defense).

That is kinda why I want a foreigner as I think a lot of our coaches are quite defense minded. I want a guy who will play to our strengths which I believe is multi-option, decision making, high skill/pace rugby.

Thats why the Ireland injury room is always so crowded. Our focus is on smashing teams into oblivion. Its not sustainable as witnessed in our slump in the latter stages of the WC and our ridiculous injury list.

We have the players to be an attacking side. A change of philosophy is desperatly needed.

If anyone's interested, I put together a couple of threads months ago about who should replace Andy Robinson. These choices would apply equally to Ireland, give or take:

https://www.606v2.com/t37714-who-should-replace-andy-robinson-part-1
https://www.606v2.com/t37746-who-should-replace-andy-robinson-part-2

red_stag wrote:Is Robbie Deans a candidate for Ireland?

He is going to need a job if McKenzie has his eyes on Australia.

Was thinking Robbie Deans would be a good shout.

My choices

1. Schmidt
2. Deans
3. Cotter
4. McKenzie

That's if St. Andre doesn't want it. We'd approach him first obviously.

I think one huge plus is that we have 3 coaches in the provinces developing skills hugely. The skill level of our lads has gone up a lot recently.

Penny needs to work on this and his game plan will be more effective too

brennomac wrote:If it is McKenzie, I hope he lays down some terms for the job - for a start putting an end to this nonsense where the coach has to report to a committee of blazers like Pa Whelan and Tom Grace who have never played or coached in the professional era. Don't think this sort of relationshipo exists in any other international team.

This is just not true. Every rugby union is run in exactly the same way as the IRFU are. For instance:

The NZRU Board is charged with setting strategy, direction and policy for the NZRU, and is ultimately responsible for the decisions and actions of NZRU management and staff. Many of the decisions concerning New Zealand’s national teams, domestic competitions, financial management and rugby traditions are made by the Board.

The Board has nine members: six zonal representatives, one Maori representative and two independent Board Members.

Notch wrote:

red_stag wrote:Is Robbie Deans a candidate for Ireland?

He is going to need a job if McKenzie has his eyes on Australia.

Was thinking Robbie Deans would be a good shout.

Why? Because Australia lost to Ireland at the world cup?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I think one huge plus is that we have 3 coaches in the provinces developing skills hugely. The skill level of our lads has gone up a lot recently.

Penny needs to work on this and his game plan will be more effective too

Pete - just to remind you of a discussion with had 2 years ago when you were promoting the concept that teams win nothing that kick the ball away when I provided you with a stat that the Reds kicked their way to the Super Rugby title (as the team that kicked the most in Super Rugby).

Just saying .....

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

red_stag wrote:Is Robbie Deans a candidate for Ireland?

He is going to need a job if McKenzie has his eyes on Australia.

Was thinking Robbie Deans would be a good shout.

Why? Because Australia lost to Ireland at the world cup?

Yes. That is exactly why.

Mckenzie is the bookies favourite now at 3-1.

I'd say if the IRFU want McKenzie they'll get him unless the ARU has promised him the Aussie job. He is up against Deans and Jake White who has thrown his hat in the ring. McKenzie could coach Ireland for 2 seasons then return home. It wouldn't be hard to improve Ireland.

If that quote is true then the ARU should be punting that dropkick off their board. It doesn't matter if he was a prop. He can hire an assistant coach to deal with the backs.

Also, everybody knows its the forward packs which determines the winner of the game...

Think McKensie and Kiss are friends. They frequently appear together on RuggaMatrix pod cast during which they often talk about about Ireland. It wouldnt be a surprise to see the two of them team up.

i would be all for it. It would certainly be better than what we have. We need a change.

Les Kiss was McKenzie's Assistant at the Warratahs for 4 or 5 years.