England summer tour of Argentina

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Updated prior to Consur XV game:

Forwards (18)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 2 caps)
Rob Buchanan (Harlequins, uncapped)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 18 caps)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints, 4 caps)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 9 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 20 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 10 caps)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 10 caps)
David Paice (London Irish, 6 caps)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Billy Vunipola (London Wasps, uncapped)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 26 caps)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain, 18 caps)

Backs (14)
Mike Brown (Harlequins, 16 caps)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints, 7 caps)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints, 30 caps)
Alex Goode (Saracens, 11 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 4 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
David Strettle (Saracens, 13 caps)
Joel Tomkins (Saracens, uncapped)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 4 caps)
Christian Wade (London Wasps, uncapped)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 12 caps)
Marland Yarde (London Irish, uncapped)

With Kearnan Myall and Haydn Thomas added to the squad for the Barbarians game.

Sides for the Consur XV game - KO 19.30

England: Ben Foden (Northampton Saints); Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), David Strettle (Saracens); Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens); Joe Marler (Harlequins); David Paice (London Irish); Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks); Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints); Kearnan Myall (Unattached); Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain); Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)

Replacements: Rob Buchanan (Harlequins), Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints), Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors) 21 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)

CONSUR XV: Tomás Carrió (Argentina); Belisario Agulla (Argentina), Francisco Sansot (Argentina), Juan Socino (Argentina), Leandro Leivas (Uruguay); Benjamín Madero (Argentina), Tomás Cubelli -C- (Argentina), Bruno Postiglioni (Argentina), Arturo Ávalo (Uruguay), Mario Sagario (Uruguay), Cesar Fruttero (Argentina), Pablo Huete (Chile), Tomás de la Vega (Argentina), Javier Ortega Desio (Argentina), Antonio Ahualli (Argentina)

Replacements: Alejo Corral (Uruguay), Óscar Durán (Uruguay), Nicolás Klapenbach (Uruguay), Diego Magno (Uruguay), Juan Gaminara (Uruguay), Agustín Ormaechea(Uruguay), Mosiés Duque (Brasil), Santiago Gbernau (Uruguay)

http://www.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/story/184014.html

The game contains plenty of developing players on both sides who won't have played together much so should be interesting. From an England perspective I can't to see how Foden does back in the 15 shirt and also really looking forward to Jonny May getting a chance on the wing as I've been pushing for him to be selected all season (and before that even!).

To be completely honest I know little about most of the Consur XV players but as a Tigers fan I'm looking forward to seeing Horacio Agulla's younger brother Belisario on the right wing. I always rated Horacio very highly and enjoyed his style of play so I'm hoping for much the same from Belisario!

majesticimperialman wrote:yappy. Is Morgan back playing again now?

He came off the bench against Sale. Cannot say I then noticed him.

yappysnap wrote:From this weekends live games i'd have the following pack:

1. Marler
2. Buchanan
3. Cole
4. Parling
5. Slater
6. Wood (c)
7. Fraser
8. Morgan

Assuming that Youngs and Robshaw are away with the Lions. Launchberry is benched so that we can see how the Slater/Parling combo works.

Oh I like that pack Yappy

bluestonevedder wrote:

yappysnap wrote:From this weekends live games i'd have the following pack:

1. Marler
2. Buchanan
3. Cole
4. Parling
5. Slater
6. Wood (c)
7. Fraser
8. Morgan

Assuming that Youngs and Robshaw are away with the Lions. Launchberry is benched so that we can see how the Slater/Parling combo works.

Oh I like that pack Yappy

Bring it on!!

We've been bullied in contact now by a few sides and i am sick to death of it! Sick to my stomach. Everyone is gunning for us now. Everyone thinks we're soft.

England's current starting pack is missing a 'bully' type figure. Some unrelenting figure who plays on the edge and is physically imposing. I think Attwood or Fearns could be up to the task. Attwood looks like he's finding some form again now, which I hope could see him taken to Argentina this summer

bluestonevedder wrote:

yappysnap wrote:From this weekends live games i'd have the following pack:

1. Marler
2. Buchanan
3. Cole
4. Parling
5. Slater
6. Wood (c)
7. Fraser
8. Morgan

Assuming that Youngs and Robshaw are away with the Lions. Launchberry is benched so that we can see how the Slater/Parling combo works.

Oh I like that pack Yappy

That pack has a nice balance to it Yappy but the only extra weight change is Slater in for Launchburry. Marler did ok against Bath but I don't exactly remember the Quins scrum being dominant. Buchanan I have always liked and for a young guy he's taken to Jeff rugby like a duck to water.

I think Cole is a certain tourist so I think we have to accept him as away from the Argie tour. Purely from the w/end I think i'd have:

1. M Vunipola
2. R Buchanan
3. D Wilson
4. E Slater
5. G Kitchener
6. T Wood
7. M Kvesic (Fraser deserves it but Kvesic is a better carrier)
8. B Morgan

16. J George 17. J Marler 18. F Balmain (from the w/end I don't know who else played??) 19. T Savage 20. W Fraser

That's just from this weekend gone excepting the likely Lions candidates from that list.

bluestonevedder wrote:England's current starting pack is missing a 'bully' type figure. Some unrelenting figure who plays on the edge and is physically imposing. I think Attwood or Fearns could be up to the task. Attwood looks like he's finding some form again now, which I hope could see him taken to Argentina this summer

Agree on Attwood he looked good again.

without wanting to ruin anyone's parade by relieving my bladder all over it, is there any shred of evidence that Lancaster and/or Rowntree and co have learned lessons?

I cannot watch another game like the Wales v England one again. I dont think my heart can take it.

Slater seems to have had another good game at the weekend. Is he becoming that powerful guy in the engine room we've been looking for?
I think he'll tour for Lancs to have a look at him.

Well for heaven's sake let's hope so. How is it that our heritage has been so badly lost?

HOW? and Why?

It makes me sick!

England have gone too far the other way, front a monster pack to an athletic one.

I think all England fans agree that we have gone TOO far for athleticism.
We need to find the balance.

Slater has shown some power AND athleticsm for a big guy and form aswell.
Im not forgetting Launchbury just yet though. He's been impressive.

Interestingly if Lawes continues to excell in the lineout...could we see the combo everyone had been hoping for years ago...Attwood and Lawes in the engine room?

So many questions....so many damn options pah.

Too many options GF!

Can't forget Launchbury, he's quality, but still so young. I don't think he's quite filled out to his natural size yet, which could see other aspects of his game develop too.

Attwood and Slater are very different to any other locks coming through the ranks, in that they are large, physcial presences. Would love to see both tour.

Lawes disappointed me in the Six Nations, immensely. I actually think he needs to bulk out quite a bit. He's lightweight, regardless of stats, and needs the physique to play the aggressive game he does in the premiership.

Yea I think for the moment Lawes is a squad player with an eye to seeing how he is in a few seasons time.

Attwood to me is far more hit and miss, Slater has hit good form and held it for most of this season now. He also knows Parling well already and that prebuilt combination could be invaluable. There may well be a lot of usefull benefits of playing Youngs, Cole, Slater, Parling, Youngs, Flood, Tuilagi as they all play and train together every week. Then just put the best players in their positions around that strong Tigers spine and see how we go.

Oh and it will help cripple the Tiger too and send Cockers bat Poopie.

My starting team seems to be changing every day...Ok how about....

1 Vunipola / Marler
2 Youngs
3 Wilson
4 Launchbury
5 Slater
6 Croft
7 Kvesic
8 Morgan

9 Care / Youngs
10 Flood
11 Foden
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tomkins
14 May
15 Brown

Though im not his biggest fan...having Croft at 6 means we can go with Launchbury and Slater in the engine room which could be a powerful athletic combo.
And i think Wade will go with the Lions, so may gets a chance to impress.

Ok so im starting to think of the actual squad to go now. 35 man squad

Lions / Rested / Injury Recovery:
Corbs, Haskell, Barritt, Launchbury, B. Youngs, Farrell, T.Youngs
Parling, Tuilagi, Ashton, D.Cole, A. Goode, Marler
Croft may be a lion if not take him to Argentina as he will be fresh. Rest Wood, unless Croft is a lion then take him

Would you be happy with something like this with Croft or Wood Captain:

Looseheads - Vunipola, Mullan

Hooker - Hartley, Webber, Buchanan/ Lindsay

Tighthead - Wilson (Covers both sides also), Thomas, PDJ

Lock - Lawes, Attwood, Slater, Kitchener

Blindside - Croft (if not a lion) if he is take Wood, Fearns, Kruis

Openside - Kvesic, Fraser

Number 8 - Morgan, Vunipola

Scrum Half - Care, Simpson, Robson (Gives him the experience of a tour)

Fly Half - Flood, Burns,

Inside Centre - Twelvetrees, Banahan

Outside Centre - Tomkin, Lowe, Eastmond (Covers a few options)

Wing - May, Wade, Yarde, Thompstone / Varndell

Full Back - Brown, Foden

Personally I'd be tempted to give Marler some time off this summer, he's already played 23-24 times for club/ country this season, in some very punishing games. That is a lot for such a young prop. Give him some time to come out fresh next season. I'd do the same for Corbisiero too, let him have a full preseason to make sure his injury is properly settled.

I'd send Vunipola as first choice with someone like Nick Wood or Matt Mullan as back up.

Sensible suggestion mate...change made

To me, this is going to be a make or break season for Paul Doran-Jones too. He's been kicking around at Cole's boot heels for a while, competing with Davey Wilson for the back up spot. Wilson seems to have won that battle and there are young tightheads on the horizon. If PDJ doesn't lay down a marker on this tour and for Quins next season, I reckon they will start looking elsewhere.

Yeah i totally agree with that aswell. I put him in purely becuase the likes of Knight, Scott Wilson, Sinkler are maybe just one or two seasons away from a tour like this.
But his position is under threat very much so...especially with Davy Wilson seemingly finding his feet again.

Indeed, I'm wondering if Lancaster will take Kieran Brookes too. He seems to have fans amongst the management since they called him up to the Saxons against Ireland despite hardly playing for Leicester at all.

I wouldnt be playing him for us at the moment let alone this tour. I think Scott Wilson looks far better.

Maybe's after a serious summer conditioning and pre season training he will be back to the player we thought had serious potential.

But he's got to get much fitter and trim off.

Cumbrian wrote:To me, this is going to be a make or break season for Paul Doran-Jones too. He's been kicking around at Cole's boot heels for a while, competing with Davey Wilson for the back up spot. Wilson seems to have won that battle and there are young tightheads on the horizon. If PDJ doesn't lay down a marker on this tour and for Quins next season, I reckon they will start looking elsewhere.

I wouldn't quite go that far.

We've seen that the very young front row players have a lot of promise but can really struggle for consistency at Int level (Marler, Vunipola and Youngs). Having a slightly older prop coming in to his prime could be perfect for England PDJ is 27, Wilson is 28, Dan Cole is only 25 (WTF?!!)

If Both Wilson and PDJ can find good runs of form then they'll add a useful older bit of balance to a much younger front row, whether they hit form next season or the season after isn't an issue to me as long as they do. Even if it's not until 2015 they still have plenty of years left in them. With Marler 22 and Tom Youngs 26 (but about 20 in hooking experience) it could pay to have an old head or two kicking around.

As a Quins fan I hope PDJ comes good straight away! John Kingston in my view is one of the best forwards coaches in the league and as long as we don't try to make him into James Johnston I think he'll go well, he's been very good at mauls with Saints, was solid in the scrum for England and hopefully can find the time to get around the park a bit more for Quins and join in with the fast paced off loading game (something Wilson and Cole both fail to do).

Cumbrian wrote:To me, this is going to be a make or break season for Paul Doran-Jones too. He's been kicking around at Cole's boot heels for a while, competing with Davey Wilson for the back up spot. Wilson seems to have won that battle and there are young tightheads on the horizon. If PDJ doesn't lay down a marker on this tour and for Quins next season, I reckon they will start looking elsewhere.

We'll fix him. Who'd have thought that Quins would be the TH-technique repair shop (first Leinster then Sarries benefitting)?

I think Marler and Vunipola have both had hard seasons for players so young, so would benefit from a summer off - as would Corbisiero to make sure he is 100% ok for the start of next season. Whilst I agree with a lot of what Lancaster has done in going for young players who have a career ahead of them, for props 27/28 is not old and it just seems that we have missed a generation of what seemed to be pretty promising props in PDJ, Matt Mullan, etc. It would be good to see them have a chance this summer.

On the 2nd row point, it was interesting to see Mark McCall saying that after the beating by Clermont last year, that Saracens set out to bulk up their forwards and that the likes of Will Fraser have put on 8 or 9 kgs, and that Vunipola whilst not heavier had a much lower body fat level. When looking at the stats, Launchbury is only 1lb lighter than Attwood. Lawes 10lbs and Parling 3lbs. Rather than getting rid of them to bring in someone a few lbs heavier, I would prefer to see them work on bulking up what we have a bit. Plus the obvious point of not playing 2 relatively small inexperienced players in the front row (Marler and Youngs) and 3 lightweight 6/7s in the backrow. Corbisiero and Hartley have 5st+ on Marler and Youngs. I do appreciate that attitude and technique is/as important as simple physical ability.

Yeah think your right about players size. We seem to be producing alot of real quality second rows who have the athleticism to cover 6 aswell. This is great but we need a few of them become a bit more grizzled in the second row. But they are all young and will get better and tougher. Botha, O'Connell, Johnson etc all started like that and became the benchmarks...
Launchbury is a real classy player we need to continue with.

I've not seen Wilson play better than he did against Leicester a couple of weeks back - very impressive. If he keeps going like that he'll be a rival to Cole rather than just back-up.

It also looks to me that Lawes is starting to find some form for the first time in a while.

The thing is even if Lawes does find form is he the type of player we need at the moment, can he partner Parling or Launchberry? Or Like Croft is he a good player but just not the right cog to go in the machine.

The funny thing is...whilst im not the biggest croft fan, i can see the value of him on Englands flank...if it allows a couple of bigger guys in the second row..say launchbury (5) and Slater or Attwood (4).

Lawes is a frustration. So much potential yet seems inconsistant and injury prone. I do hope he finally nails it though and finds some consistency.

When does Lancs name the squad to go to Argentina?

Edit :
Squad of aprox 30 being picked early May.

Some suggestions that Robshaw may miss out on a lions trip. If that was the case would you give him the summer off? Or would he lead the Argentina tour.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Some suggestions that Robshaw may miss out on a lions trip. If that was the case would you give him the summer off? Or would he lead the Argentina tour.

If england are serious about finding a real fetching 7, then Argentina would be a good opportunity to have a look at another couple of players. I can't see Lancaster doing that though, he strikes me as being too loyal to his players.

Well, yes i thought that aswell...but reading some of his interviews...he keeps saying a young and develping team will have to play very well to win down there.

That suggests to me he may leave some of the senior guys at home.
And yes we want to see what Kvesic and Fraser bring to the setup.

We do need a little bit of experience in there though.

I'd give Robshaw the summer off if he's not selected for Oz to be honest. He plays a tremendous amount of rugby, and is starting to look a little tired. We can get the experience from else where, and like mawhis says, take a look at a few other optiosn at 7 (Kvesic and Fraser for me- love them both).

Well that certainly makes sense Eddie...

The other issue is confidence. There's bound to be a media storm if he's not selected for Australia - If he doesn't tour to Argentina either, would that look like England have no confidence in him?

If he isn't picked fpr the Lions people will believe that the Lions management didn't think he was good enough. I can't honestly see people (even media types) suggesting the same thing if he is not picked for England. Rightly or wrongly other tours take a back seat when the Lions are touring and I expect Lancaster would let him know the craic.

I still think it will be a tough call if he doesnt go mind, but no i dont think it would be seen like that. I think he would see it as being given a nice summer off after a busy season, with a development squad going out to South America.
He might even be asked to go as a non playing part of the squad?

Hmm...think that would be a bit of kick in the teeth GF, being asked to go but not playing.

One thing Lancaster seems really good at is micro-management of his players. I remember him saying that he puts time aside to speak to every player, both in the EPS and fringe ones. I reckon if not selected, he'll sit Robshaw down and let him know the reasons behind his decisions.

If SL plays Brown on the wing instead of FB in Argentina, can I reserve the right to shoot him?

Of course. I'll reload for you inbetween your shots.

Excellent

Yes we will all reserve that right....

If Care and Youngs go with the Lions (they are in the top 3 - no doubt) will England be a bit exposed at scrumhalf?

I'd love to see May and Wade on the wings.

I assume this will be on Sky and not shown in pubs because of conflicts with darts or something?

ChequeredJersey wrote:If SL plays Brown on the wing instead of FB in Argentina, can I reserve the right to shoot him?

No!

However, you may (and think Daniel Craig, Casino Royale here) tie SL to a dining chair with the seat removed, and for every minute that Brown plays as a starter on the wing swing a knotted rope up into his nadgers. the continued, repetitive pain would be more fitting than the quick end you propose.

Alex_Germany wrote:If Care and Youngs go with the Lions (they are in the top 3 - no doubt) will England be a bit exposed at scrumhalf?

I'd love to see May and Wade on the wings.

I assume this will be on Sky and not shown in pubs because of conflicts with darts or something?

If both Youngs and Care go, I think we'll definitely see Dickson head to Argentina as the experienced SH. Joe Simpson will probably tour as well, because he's been on the fringes for ages but hasn't really had his chance. Always shocks me when I remember that he went to the World Cup in 2011! I think that Dan Robson could fill the 3rd place SH role for the tour too. Had a very impressive season, and looks a different player tfrom when he was in the U20s. Much more assured.

Think we all agree on the Wade and May point!

Im not sure both Care AND Youngs will go. I think it'll be Youngs.

Too be honest the question then is should we give Care the summer off aswell...played alot of games this season...or do we take him as an experienced member of the EPS and a crackin player.

In most cases I could understand giving players a rest, but should either Care or Youngs not go I feel they should go to Argentina - both (though more so Care) have less chance to start for England due to the presence of the other - they deserve the chance to earn caps and would be an experienced head amongst younger players.

If certain players like care don't make the lions tour but make the reserve list then surely lances has to take them on tour to make sure they stay fit,no?

sickofwendy wrote:If certain players like care don't make the lions tour but make the reserve list then surely lances has to take them on tour to make sure they stay fit,no?

I think they can get fitter staying at home.

Some players "need" a break - perhaps not Care.

If Care's not with the lions, he'll go to Argentina as he'll be needed. Argentina are not a bad team (just ahead of Ireland in the IRB rankings)

Take strongest squad I say,poor old robshaw as captain.
Hooker will be interesting webber as first choice,gray,buchanen,lindsay or paice as back up?