England summer tour of Argentina

First topic message reminder :

Updated prior to Consur XV game:

Forwards (18)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 2 caps)
Rob Buchanan (Harlequins, uncapped)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 18 caps)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints, 4 caps)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 9 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 20 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 10 caps)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 10 caps)
David Paice (London Irish, 6 caps)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Billy Vunipola (London Wasps, uncapped)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 26 caps)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain, 18 caps)

Backs (14)
Mike Brown (Harlequins, 16 caps)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints, 7 caps)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints, 30 caps)
Alex Goode (Saracens, 11 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 4 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
David Strettle (Saracens, 13 caps)
Joel Tomkins (Saracens, uncapped)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 4 caps)
Christian Wade (London Wasps, uncapped)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 12 caps)
Marland Yarde (London Irish, uncapped)

With Kearnan Myall and Haydn Thomas added to the squad for the Barbarians game.

Sides for the Consur XV game - KO 19.30

England: Ben Foden (Northampton Saints); Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), David Strettle (Saracens); Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens); Joe Marler (Harlequins); David Paice (London Irish); Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks); Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints); Kearnan Myall (Unattached); Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain); Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)

Replacements: Rob Buchanan (Harlequins), Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints), Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors) 21 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)

CONSUR XV: Tomás Carrió (Argentina); Belisario Agulla (Argentina), Francisco Sansot (Argentina), Juan Socino (Argentina), Leandro Leivas (Uruguay); Benjamín Madero (Argentina), Tomás Cubelli -C- (Argentina), Bruno Postiglioni (Argentina), Arturo Ávalo (Uruguay), Mario Sagario (Uruguay), Cesar Fruttero (Argentina), Pablo Huete (Chile), Tomás de la Vega (Argentina), Javier Ortega Desio (Argentina), Antonio Ahualli (Argentina)

Replacements: Alejo Corral (Uruguay), Óscar Durán (Uruguay), Nicolás Klapenbach (Uruguay), Diego Magno (Uruguay), Juan Gaminara (Uruguay), Agustín Ormaechea(Uruguay), Mosiés Duque (Brasil), Santiago Gbernau (Uruguay)

http://www.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/story/184014.html

The game contains plenty of developing players on both sides who won't have played together much so should be interesting. From an England perspective I can't to see how Foden does back in the 15 shirt and also really looking forward to Jonny May getting a chance on the wing as I've been pushing for him to be selected all season (and before that even!).

To be completely honest I know little about most of the Consur XV players but as a Tigers fan I'm looking forward to seeing Horacio Agulla's younger brother Belisario on the right wing. I always rated Horacio very highly and enjoyed his style of play so I'm hoping for much the same from Belisario!

OK - so you see Eastmond as a distributor.
Thats what I wasnt sure about, i've seen highlights and you only really see the hard running side of him. Therefore I was thinking that he would slot well into the 13 mould outside of a guy like 36.

Well that was his role in RL. He does have a good running side to him as seen from the highlights but that is more down to his quick feet than a turn of pace.
To be honest I would be interested to see how he would go with Burns and 36, far better players than those around him at Bath, which may allow him to use that footwork more and then put the wingers away.

But maybe a good distributor with quick feet is perfect for the 12 role...

yappysnap wrote:Carlos do you want to update the OP with the actual squad that's touring mate? Unless that is the squad... but I don't think Lowe is going to Argentina is he?

Just been updated yappy - sorry for taking a while, had a hectic few weeks!

So what were peoples thoughts on the game today and what effect it will have on choices for the tour?

Obviously it was a disappointing game in terms of overall quality but they can only beat what's in front of them and as such it was a promising performance IMO. I though the backline especially showed lots of skill and genuine threats with ball in hand from many positions rather than throwing the ball to one player and hoping something will happen.

It was also good to see a searing try from Daly who I would've loved to have seen in the squad!

Cheers buddy, no worries.

On the game I have to say I'm 60/40 happy/disappointed. Englands counter attacking looked good and the back three plus 10/12 played very well ball in hand. But on the down side we kicked far too much possesion away, doubly upsetting as the BaaBaas defence was clueless for most of the game. We also failed to bring in any real strike moves off first phase ball, or build up an attacking platform and break down the BaaBaas the few times that they were defending well.wigglesworth and Jj were both poor, Wiggs just offered so little while Jj struggled to get into the game.

On the plus side the pack went well, especially in the front 5. Attwood and Wilson were my stand outs and I may be biased but Marler had a quality cameo as well. The only let down was Kvesic who after all the hype and talk about being a fetcher disappointed in a game I thought would be perfecct for him.

Overall there's little to learn except that if you actually play form players theyll generally do well and proper wings work best on the wing!

JJ looks a bit out of condition to me & as you say Yappy Wiggs didn't set the game alight real shame Joe Simpson hasn't progressed as we all expected.

He has still got the searing pace that Wigs lacks though & I think a SH should have.

Yep Wigglesworth just slowed everything down and kicked away possession (Who'd have predicted it?), he doesn't complement Burns at all. He is the sort of player you bring on to close out games.

Marler was good, but so was Corbisiero so there are no complaints there at all from me. Wilson was the stand out though, could he be ramping up from back up to genuine challenger to Cole? His carrying game is better than Cole's but Dan's scrummaging and break down work are a lot better IMO. Perhaps we aren't dancing on the edge of disaster, expecting to be screwed when Cole gets injured/ knackered.

It was great to see Attwood make barging runs, knocking people out of the way. It is even more promising that he was calling the lineouts, he could be genuine competition to Parling in that area. He is still only 26 and seems to be coming into his own.

Kvesic wasn't bad, he just wasn't stand out. I think it will take time for him to get into the rhythm at international level, that will be the problem though. There are at least two other players chomping at the bit to take his place, the back-row is so competitive these days.

I only caught the second half I wasn't impressed by 36 or JJ. JJ was a complete non-entity and 36 showed flashes in attack, not enough from phase ball for me knowing his ability and in defence he was bypassed by Daly on three occasions in the second half including Daly's try. His defensive discipline needs to be better as at the minute he is pointing his body inwards meaning if the opposition get on his outside he struggles to make the hit. An issue for a 12.

Burns looked decent, Yarde was excellent, Wade looked classy though I'd like to see him more involved, the front row looked extremely good at the set piece and in the loose which gives us valuable options going forward and Attwood seems to be coming good at the right time (replace Myall with Slater on the bench and we have great options going into the Argue games).

Yappy - I agree the front 5 impressed which was great to see, especially with Slater and Lawes returning to the squad for the tour. Kvesic didn't set things alight but had a solid game IMO - I believe it was him that created the turnover which led to Yarde's break and then Burns try early on.

Sam - The issue with Twelvetrees allowing himself to get caught out positionally sometimes is one of the reasons I really wanted to see Lowe in the squad as he's technically/tactically very clever alongside being very fast and having better distribution than Tuilagi, Tomkins and Joseph (though those three offer more physicality and off-loading....). I'd have loved to have seen the below side for the tour:

1.Corbs 2.Webber 3.Wilson 4.Attwood 5.Launchberry 6.Wood 7.Kvesic 8.Morgan
9.Care 10.Burns 11.Yarde 12.Twelvetrees 13.Lowe 14.Wade 15.Brown
16.Lindsay 17.Marler 18.Thomas 19.Slater 20.Vunipola 21.Wigglesworth 22.Eastmond 23.May/Foden

To be fair the side we'll see isn't looking a million miles from that anyway though which is a hell of an improvement on what we've been able to say about some selections in recent years!

Agree with that Carlos, I like the look of that team too, Lowe is class but for what ever reason seems to always be over looked.

Kvesic did indeed get that turn over but then just seemed to fade after that, bit of a shame but hopefully as the team gel he'll show a bit more. At the moment I'd still go with Wood/Robshaw although honestly Wood was fairly anonymous against Tigers (and Sarries) too.

Billy V was pretty hit and miss, i'd like to see him start as he seems to come off the bench and want to try too much, starting may help him ease in to the game a little more and get his hands warmed up as well.

yappysnap wrote:Agree with that Carlos, I like the look of that team too, Lowe is class but for what ever reason seems to always be over looked.

In fairness he was taken to South Africa last year and scored in midweek before going home injured, and then missed half of this season through injury and subsequently losing his place to Hopper. Very good player but needs to work on his passing and occasionally he can get beaten on the inside shoulder in defence.

Gold is working his magic on Wilson and Attwood at Bath...great to see.

Kvesic didnt impress at all...though it was his first game...still way behind Robshaw for that 7 shirt.

Parling may find himself going on a Lions tour then being dropped by his country.

And the backs - well not a great Baas Baas side (good individuals) but it just felt good to see those young England backs passing quick, running lines...trusting their ability and scoring tries. Lets see how they go against the Argentinians...and if they cope well...then i will be dispondant if we still see Farrell and barritt at 10 and 12 come the AI's...

Ed slater ruled out.
Myall called up

Shame for Ed, but i guess that means we roll with a second row of an inform Attwood and Mr Consistantly class Launchbury...and i'd take that no problem...

Are the Argentina-England games being shown on TV anywhere in the UK? Can't see it listed on Sky Sports at the moment.

Did we already know that Calum Clark is out of tour as well?

Ed Slater out - thats a real shame as I'd wanted to see him play in an England shirt.
His time will come hopefully.

Duty281 wrote:Are the Argentina-England games being shown on TV anywhere in the UK? Can't see it listed on Sky Sports at the moment.

Doesn't seem to be shown by anybody, not quite sure why as you would think ITV, BBC ESPN would all jump at the chance even if it is developmental.

Clark just can't catch a break,can he?

You'll be able to stream it in from somewhere i would think. Theres no way it isnt going to be televised.

Do you think we'll start the 1st test with the team we started the Baa Baas?
I think pack will be...but with Wood replacing Johnson.

Would not be surprised if Lancaster played Wood at 7 not 6

Was just thinking he seems to like Wood at 6, and for all im wasnt totally impressed with Kvesic's performance, it was his first game and id be loathe to throw him out...id rather give him another few games to get used to the pace and see if he has what it takes.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Was just thinking he seems to like Wood at 6, and for all im wasnt totally impressed with Kvesic's performance, it was his first game and id be loathe to throw him out...id rather give him another few games to get used to the pace and see if he has what it takes.

Oh, I'd start Kvesic at 7, but I won't be surprised if Lancaster plays Wood there

Yeah true CJ...

Calum Clark and Ed Slater ruled out.

Kearnan Myall the only replacement. Touch disappointed for Graham Kitchener, he has been excellent for us all season, and had another good display in the AP final.

LondonTiger wrote:Calum Clark and Ed Slater ruled out.

Kearnan Myall the only replacement. Touch disappointed for Graham Kitchener, he has been excellent for us all season, and had another good display in the AP final.

Agree Kitchener can feel a bit aggrieved as he's been a stand out for us for much of the season as you say. With Deacon struggling and Parling on England duty the second row could have been a problem for us but Slater and Kitchener both stood up in a big way and it would've been nice to see both on tour. Also with Kitchener he offers real dynamism to go with his size - as seen for his try at the weekend.

Tweet from Brian Moore:

"Brian Moore ‏@brianmoore666 Rugby - Argentina v England update - both games live on BBC2 at 8.00pm."

Woo Hoo!!!!!

Excellent news!

I thought Moore was supposed to be in Oz with talksport though?

It's official.
Just announced on 5live that bbc2 television both games.

sickofwendy wrote:It's official.
Just announced on 5live that bbc2 television both games.

Get in!

Well done the Beeb. True public service broadcasting there!

Commentator Eddie Butler - Every silver lining etc...

Can not wait for this, way more exciting then the Lions game!

Teams being put up today?

Well done BBC, good to have a couple of England games on free to air TV.

lostinwales wrote:Commentator Eddie Butler - Every silver lining etc...

What are you talking about? I can't wait for his montage fuelled monologues and amazing poetry.

Cumbrian wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Commentator Eddie Butler - Every silver lining etc...

What are you talking about? I can't wait for his montage fuelled monologues and amazing poetry.

At least he won't have any French names to pronounce!

And the players have numbers on their backs s it doesn't matter than he can't get the players right. Also the ref mic means were can find out what the penalty was really for that way.

Butler is fine with me...is his wife Mr Moore alongside him....best commentary duo in the business...like an old married couple..but as knowledgeable as the best out there...

When are the dates for the Argentina games...great news that they're on TV...

Edit : Ah
South America XV is on Sunday 2nd
Argentina 1st test Saturday 8th
Argentina 2nd test Saturday 15th June

I'm in northern Cyprus from the 12th.
Anyone know if I can get bbc2 out there?

Yeah i would imagine they'll have it on in the bars if you ask them...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Butler is fine with me...is his wife Mr Moore alongside him....best commentary duo in the business...like an old married couple..but as knowledgeable as the best out there...

When are the dates for the Argentina games...great news that they're on TV...

Edit : Ah
South America XV is on Sunday 2nd
Argentina 1st test Saturday 8th
Argentina 2nd test Saturday 15th June

Looks like Brian Moore is in the studio with SCW etc

GeordieFalcon wrote:Butler is fine with me...is his wife Mr Moore alongside him....best commentary duo in the business...like an old married couple..but as knowledgeable as the best out there...

When are the dates for the Argentina games...great news that they're on TV...

Edit : Ah
South America XV is on Sunday 2nd
Argentina 1st test Saturday 8th
Argentina 2nd test Saturday 15th June

Can someone post the BBC scheduled prog & ko times @ GMT ?

8pm for both tests

thank you CQ

England team Vs CONSOUR 15

15 Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
14 Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
13 Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
12 Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
11 David Strettle (Saracens)
10 Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints)
9 Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
1 Joe Marler (Harlequins)
2 David Paice (London Irish)
3 Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
4 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
5 Kearnan Myall (Unattached)
6 Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain)
7 Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
8 Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)

Replacements
16 Rob Buchanan (Harlequins)
17 Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
18 Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints)
19 Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
20 Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors)
21 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
22 Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
23 Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)

Team vs the South American XV:

England
15 Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
14 Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
13 Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
12 Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
11 David Strettle (Saracens)
10 Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints)
9 Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
1 Joe Marler (Harlequins)
2 David Paice (London Irish)
3 Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
4 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
5 Kearnan Myall (Unattached)
6 Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain)
7 Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
8 Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)
Replacements
16 Rob Buchanan (Harlequins)
17 Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
18 Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints)
19 Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
20 Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors)
21 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
22 Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
23 Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)

Basically the players who didn't get to go against the Baabaas. Looks a little weaker to me, also, isn't Burrell a 12 and Eastmond more of a 13? And Wood/Johnson look the wrong way round to me...

Should still easily win and nice to see Foden back, see what May can do and if Strettle can bring his AP recent form along. Odd that Wrigglesworth plays again

Jinx, propdavid

I saw that ESPN will be showing this game too - happy days