England summer tour of Argentina

First topic message reminder :

Updated prior to Consur XV game:

Forwards (18)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 2 caps)
Rob Buchanan (Harlequins, uncapped)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 18 caps)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints, 4 caps)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 9 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 20 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 10 caps)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 10 caps)
David Paice (London Irish, 6 caps)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Billy Vunipola (London Wasps, uncapped)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 26 caps)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain, 18 caps)

Backs (14)
Mike Brown (Harlequins, 16 caps)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints, 7 caps)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints, 30 caps)
Alex Goode (Saracens, 11 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 4 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
David Strettle (Saracens, 13 caps)
Joel Tomkins (Saracens, uncapped)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 4 caps)
Christian Wade (London Wasps, uncapped)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 12 caps)
Marland Yarde (London Irish, uncapped)

With Kearnan Myall and Haydn Thomas added to the squad for the Barbarians game.

Sides for the Consur XV game - KO 19.30

England: Ben Foden (Northampton Saints); Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), David Strettle (Saracens); Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens); Joe Marler (Harlequins); David Paice (London Irish); Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks); Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints); Kearnan Myall (Unattached); Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain); Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)

Replacements: Rob Buchanan (Harlequins), Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints), Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors) 21 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)

CONSUR XV: Tomás Carrió (Argentina); Belisario Agulla (Argentina), Francisco Sansot (Argentina), Juan Socino (Argentina), Leandro Leivas (Uruguay); Benjamín Madero (Argentina), Tomás Cubelli -C- (Argentina), Bruno Postiglioni (Argentina), Arturo Ávalo (Uruguay), Mario Sagario (Uruguay), Cesar Fruttero (Argentina), Pablo Huete (Chile), Tomás de la Vega (Argentina), Javier Ortega Desio (Argentina), Antonio Ahualli (Argentina)

Replacements: Alejo Corral (Uruguay), Óscar Durán (Uruguay), Nicolás Klapenbach (Uruguay), Diego Magno (Uruguay), Juan Gaminara (Uruguay), Agustín Ormaechea(Uruguay), Mosiés Duque (Brasil), Santiago Gbernau (Uruguay)

http://www.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/story/184014.html

The game contains plenty of developing players on both sides who won't have played together much so should be interesting. From an England perspective I can't to see how Foden does back in the 15 shirt and also really looking forward to Jonny May getting a chance on the wing as I've been pushing for him to be selected all season (and before that even!).

To be completely honest I know little about most of the Consur XV players but as a Tigers fan I'm looking forward to seeing Horacio Agulla's younger brother Belisario on the right wing. I always rated Horacio very highly and enjoyed his style of play so I'm hoping for much the same from Belisario!

I'm not over impressed with this team - but understand that everyone needs a game including the Northants boys coming back.
I'd rather Buchanan gets a start over Pace! Glad that Billy V gets another chance to impress as I thought he was a touch anonymous when he came on against the BaaBaas.

This team isn't bad, Eastmond the tricky distributor and Burrell the battering ram could work well. Johnson isn't a 7 but definitely want to see Wood stick to 6 going forward so glad he is in his proper position, points to Kvesic being the 7 for the rest of the tour so no complaints!

Agree about Billy V, want to see him challenging Morgan strongly, back 3 look dangerous, my only worry is the lineout and engine room. Don't know anything about Myall, and Paice has never impressed me

Certainly not the strongest we can put out but every one needs a game.

No idea how Tom Johnson keeps sneaking in these sides

Myall is a good lineout operator - I assume he will make the calls.
Lawes is a jumping option too along with both Wood and Johnston. Line out should function OK.

Don't know a lot about the opposition apart from there being around half and half Argentina development and Uruguay internationals - expect a big bruising pack. + 1 or 2 Brazilians. Average age is 25 so it should be a good contest with a lot of up and coming talent.

Quite excited about seeing what eastmond will bring to the team,hope he goes well as he is exactly the type of player I want in the England side.
Looks like dickson is 1st choice scrum-half makes sense as he is in good form.I was pushing for wigglesworth but am changing my mind about him.
Hopefully this means we will see wade and yarde on the wings for the 1st test next week.

Few odd ones:

Burrell/Eastmond - shouldn't it be the other way around? Burrel has only ever played 12 and to me doesn't have the distribution, vision or pace for centre. Eastmond isn't the biggest and is going to love the hospital passes in no space that he gets from Myler.

Strettle - Why? I understand that they want everyone to play, but Strettle has a host of caps and last weekend Yarde+Wade were both miles better, odd call and surely we should be playing the youngsters as much as possible.

Wigglesworth - Terrible in attack last week, kicks too much and combined with Myler could be a real problem for the English backs. We have two other scrumhalves who are better in the squad.

Johnson - Should be 6 or nothing, what does this say about Kvesic that Lancaster would prefer an out and out 6 over him after they both played last week.

Paice - Really don't rate him, not sure what he adds to the game so I hope i'm proven wrong or Buchanan comes on pronto.

Sorry to be so negative but this just seems like a backwards step from last week, yes I realise that they want everyone to play but this team just seems poor because of it and some of those players seem to have been jammed in there no matter if they're in the right position or not.

yappysnap wrote:
Few odd ones:

Burrell/Eastmond - shouldn't it be the other way around? Burrel has only ever played 12 and to me doesn't have the distribution, vision or pace for centre. Eastmond isn't the biggest and is going to love the hospital passes in no space that he gets from Myler.

Strettle - Why? I understand that they want everyone to play, but Strettle has a host of caps and last weekend Yarde+Wade were both miles better, odd call and surely we should be playing the youngsters as much as possible.

Wigglesworth - Terrible in attack last week, kicks too much and combined with Myler could be a real problem for the English backs. We have two other scrumhalves who are better in the squad.

Johnson - Should be 6 or nothing, what does this say about Kvesic that Lancaster would prefer an out and out 6 over him after they both played last week.

Paice - Really don't rate him, not sure what he adds to the game so I hope i'm proven wrong or Buchanan comes on pronto.

Sorry to be so negative but this just seems like a backwards step from last week, yes I realise that they want everyone to play but this team just seems poor because of it and some of those players seem to have been jammed in there no matter if they're in the right position or not.

Agree with much of that Yappy. On the Burrell/Eastmond situation I wouldn't be at all surprised to see them line up the other way round or interchange throughout much of the match though.

Edwards or Dickson really deserve a start over Wigglesworth following Dickson's form of late and Thomas cameo at the weekend. Strettle I'm torn with because I really rated him a few years back and felt for him with the injuries but Wade, Yarde and May are all better prospects now (if not better players already). A big part of me feels that we would've been better off having Tait on tour rather than Strettle that way Foden could have be tried on the wing if wanted and we could see how Tait coped at the next level.

Whilst I rate Johnson I would much rather have seen Kvesic given another game to settle in before the Arg tests as well. With Paice his time has gone now, Buchanan would have been a much better choice for the game and Lindsay/Gray a better option for the tour IMO. Put it this way whilst I don't think it's a bad team given the squad I'd much rather have been looking at this:

1.Marler 2.Lindsay 3.Thomas 4.Lawes 5.Kitchener 6.Wood 7.Kvesic 8.Vunipola
9.Thomas 10.Myler 11.May 12.Allen 13.Eastmond 14.Foden 15.Tait

Simply switch Lindsay for Paice, Kitchener for Myall, Allen for Burrell and Tait for Strettle * in the touring party and that would likely have been the side we'd be looking at.
*These are changes I'd like to have seen in the squad anyway, not just a moan about the weekends selection!

Edwards?
Do you mean haydn thomas ?

Lancaster has form for this centre shin digs Carlos, didn't he play Allan at 13 in SA last season as well??

sickofwendy wrote:Edwards?
Do you mean haydn thomas ?

Yep I meant Thomas sorry wendy. Just been debating my club sides line-up and Edwards is the young lad I was arguing for in that side not this one!

Yappy - I'm not sure if he lined Allen up at 13 but with his stout preference of Barritt and JTH at 12, until Twelvetrees finally broke in this season, it wouldn't surprise me. Whilst I do like the ethos that Lancaster has put in place and his preference of youth there have definitely been some odd moments along the way as well!

Ah it's not a bad side...a mix of youngsters with a bit of.experience..he'll get a look at some ofthe players.

Do this team have a few Chilean, Brazilian and Peruvian players aswell...or is it just development for Argentina and Uruguay?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederación_Sudamericana_de_Rugby

That's the link provided in the BBC article on the game

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah it's not a bad side...a mix of youngsters with a bit of.experience..he'll get a look at some ofthe players.

Do this team have a few Chilean, Brazilian and Peruvian players aswell...or is it just development for Argentina and Uruguay?

Sure you can be all chilled about this now that Falcons are back in the Prem! If this team had run out last week though you'd have been freaking out

Too right yappy...I'm still drunk i think

A few of.the kids getting starts..mixed with a few dependable pros. Would have.preferred Buchanan at 2 and maybe one or two other changes....but we'll get to see eastmond Burrell, Thomas at prop etc , lawes needs to show some form and vunipola will get a run out at 8..and the bench is very good and will defo get a run out

Argentina is the main ones...wow how chilled was that

For those questioning it, Eastmond has played all of his rugby at 12 for Bath since Christmas (primarily at wing before that), and although Burrell is predominantly a 12, he played at 13 quite a bit for Leeds. Given that Burrell was a late addition to the squad for the injured Tomkins, I imagine that the thought was to continue to play Eastmond in the position they wanted to test him in (12) rather than shifting him around to accomodate the less favoured Burrell.

This is what Lancaster had to say about Eastmond in the side to ESPN:

"He has got great feet and balance and he is very strong and powerful but what he has also got is great timing and execution of his passing," Lancaster said. "His ability to put people through holes is right up there at the highest level and we have to find the tools to allow him to execute that. He has an opportunity to do that from 12. He is different to Jason Robinson. Jason was a strike-running outside back. Kyle is very much a ball-player. He is very comfortable at first receiver and that is what makes him dangerous."

Lancaster is open-minded about where the 23-year-old's future lies. "With a strike-running fullback in Foden you ideally need a ball-player at 12 and Kyle provides us with that," Lancaster said. "I am open-minded about Kyle's development. This is a long-term opportunity for Kyle."


Overall, clearly not the best side that could be put out, but also obviously the opportunity being taken against the weakest opposition of the tour to test some of the more peripheral players, with many of the preferred being saved for the two bigger tests as opposed to making them play 4 in a row at the end of the season.

Really hoping for a big performance from eastmond.
Hope yo see him get some action in the tests against better opposition.
If he goes well could be the end of the road for barritt.

This selection is very much made with the tests in mind. This is definitely the "midweek" game on tour. A few players can make a late stake for a test spot, but I think most of the jersey's have already been handed out.

I think he's already settled on:

1. Corbisiero 2. Webber 3. Wilson 4. Lawes 5. Launchberry 6. Wood (C) 7. Kvesic 8. Morgan
9. Dickson 10. Burns 11. Wade 12. Twelvetrees 13. Joseph 14. Foden? 15. Brown
16. Paice 17. Marler 18. Thomas 19. Attwood 20. Vunipola 21. Wigglesworth 22. Eastmond 23. Strettle?

With his thinking being that if you started last week and are down to start next week you get this week out the starting line-up.

Not sure what he's thinking with regards to the 14 and 23 shirts. One of them is Foden's, and I think that's the way he might be leaning.

after the baabaas surely yarde has to be in the mix

What time and channel is this game on?

Robbo

I think your totally correct, the only changes i would make to that side is

Yarde starting over Foden
Attwood starting over Lawes.

I think it is on espn 7ish

I've looked at th?e ESPN schedule on my TV and I can't see it anywhere, are you sure it is on. It says that it is USA vs. Germany at football.

Not positive.read it on here yesterday

GeordieFalcon wrote:Robbo

I think your totally correct, the only changes i would make to that side is

Yarde starting over Foden
Attwood starting over Lawes.

My thoughts exactly Geordie - though Lawes and Foden may fell get a start in Lancaster's book. Lawes especially as SL is a big one for keeping faith in players.

1.Corbs 2.Webber 3.Wilson 4.Attwood 5.Launchberry 6.Wood 7.Kvesic 8.Morgan
9.Dickson 10.Burns 11.Wade 12.Twelvetrees 13.Joseph 14.Yarde 15.Brown
16.Buchanan 17.Marler 18.Thomas 19.Lawes 20.Johnson 21.Thomas 22.Eastmond 23.Foden

Above would be my side but I'd expect Wigglesworth over Thomas and Paice over Buchanan from Lancaster. Still not a bad looking side though - definitely looking forward to the game!

Can anyone describe to me what all this eye-wash is about Johnson not being a 7? In my opinion he's far more of a 7 than a 6. His first up tackling is ok but i've seen him slip off a few times, hardly the groundings of a BS.

His pace, link play and work on the floor however are really superb. The Barbarians game last year showcased this well. This last game was his first for a long time after being out with injury.

I think he has all the attributes to be an excellent 7 in his twilight years.

As far as the rest of the team goes as King Carlos said above I think we'll see Burrell and Eastmond changing roles often. Eastmond is great with his hands and sees space for others well hence the desire to play him close to the action that isn't FH.

Burrell actually really impressed me in the AP final. In a team going backwards at times he looked high quality with some super offloads and the odd nice pass. I thought he has been over-hyped but he played well.

Myler at FH is the biggest joke. I don't rate him at all and think the backline will struggle unless we get total forward dominance.

As far as the rest go I think everyone needs a game on a tour like that otherwise you de-motivate players hugely. It'll be good to see Johnson at 7 and Billy V get a go from the start. If Lawes puts in a strong performance he might edge Myall for the bench spot in the tests.

Myall actually did well when he came on but Attwood and Launchbury to start the tests for me. That SR has a nice balance.

king_carlos wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Robbo

I think your totally correct, the only changes i would make to that side is

Yarde starting over Foden
Attwood starting over Lawes.

My thoughts exactly Geordie - though Lawes and Foden may fell get a start in Lancaster's book. Lawes especially as SL is a big one for keeping faith in players.

1.Corbs 2.Webber 3.Wilson 4.Attwood 5.Launchberry 6.Wood 7.Kvesic 8.Morgan
9.Dickson 10.Burns 11.Wade 12.Twelvetrees 13.Joseph 14.Yarde 15.Brown
16.Buchanan 17.Marler 18.Thomas 19.Lawes 20.Johnson 21.Thomas 22.Eastmond 23.Foden

Above would be my side but I'd expect Wigglesworth over Thomas and Paice over Buchanan from Lancaster. Still not a bad looking side though - definitely looking forward to the game!

This would be exactly my team. Although as i'm a pedant i'd have Attwood wearing 5 as he's calling the line-out.

Have we decided if this game is on TV yet?

It seems not

Chjw131 wrote:Can anyone describe to me what all this eye-wash is about Johnson not being a 7? In my opinion he's far more of a 7 than a 6. His first up tackling is ok but i've seen him slip off a few times, hardly the groundings of a BS.

His pace, link play and work on the floor however are really superb. The Barbarians game last year showcased this well. This last game was his first for a long time after being out with injury.

I think he has all the attributes to be an excellent 7 in his twilight years.


Myler at FH is the biggest joke. I don't rate him at all and think the backline will struggle unless we get total forward dominance.

I think Johnson is viewed as a 6 firstly due to Scaysbrook playing so well for Exeter at 7 meaning TJ is mainly at blindside there, and secondly because I think Lancaster views he as a good back up player to Croft/Wood as he offers a big work rate in attack and defence plus a line-out presence.

Whilst I agree his skill set would allow him to play either open or blind I think for England Robshaw, Kvesic and Fraser/Wallace will keep him away from that shirt. At Exeter he may well move across in his twilight years though - given the way Exeter's pack plays with everyone being required to put in a huge work load in the loose I'd say their backrow is probably more interchangeable than others would be though.

Myler I'm not a big fan of but the sad fact currently is how many other options are there?

Flood and Ford for differing reasons are being given a full pre-season to come back raring to go next season. After those guys we almost have a 'lost generation' of very talented 10's that a few years ago we would have predicted to be taking England forward currently - Cipriani, Lamb and Geraghty come straight to mind but also Rory Clegg following his huge promise in the age groups hasn't really kicked on yet. Throw in Farrell being with the Lions, the old guard of Hodgson, Wilkinson and Goode now being too old (not that I'd have supported a call up for them!) plus Heathcote's decision to play for Scotland and we were always going to be short of FH cover for the tour.

Just to clarify, that isn't the team I'd pick, that's the team I think Lancaster will pick and he's made this selection with his first test team in mind.

I too would go with Attwood over Lawes, Buchanan over Paice and then I'd be looking at Yarde or May on one wing with Foden in the 23 shirt. I was impressed with Yarde, but overall I've been more impressed with May and will be interested to see how he goes tonight, if I can find the game online.

Not a big fan of Myler at all, but we need a specialist 10 to back-up Burns and he's just about the best option.

Whats,the south America xv lineup

CONSUR XV: Tomás Carrió (Argentina); Belisario Agulla (Argentina), Francisco Sansot (Argentina), Juan Socino (Argentina), Leandro Leivas (Uruguay); Benjamín Madero (Argentina), Tomás Cubelli -C- (Argentina), Bruno Postiglioni (Argentina), Arturo Ávalo (Uruguay), Mario Sagario (Uruguay), Cesar Fruttero (Argentina), Pablo Huete (Chile), Tomás de la Vega (Argentina), Javier Ortega Desio (Argentina), Antonio Ahualli (Argentina)

Replacements: Alejo Corral (Uruguay), Óscar Durán (Uruguay), Nicolás Klapenbach (Uruguay), Diego Magno (Uruguay), Juan Gaminara (Uruguay), Agustín Ormaechea(Uruguay), Mosiés Duque (Brasil), Santiago Gbernau (Uruguay)

http://www.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/story/184014.html

Cheers mate!

So its a Uruguay and Argentina development team..shame theres not a few from other countries

Is this game going to be on TV?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Is this game going to be on TV?

Don't think so. Might get it Argentinian TV online or something like that.

That sucks. I was looking forward to seeing some of the new english players. Billy Vunipola in particular.

Apparently it's being covered by ESPN South America, so should be available online somewhere.

What time's kick-off for the game does anyone know? That way I can update the OP with the teams and details for the match. If I can find it online I'll post updates from the game on here but probably can't post a link for obvious reasons!

it's 7.30 pm BST

19.30

Anybody managed to locate a broadcaster?

Cheers chequered and wendy - the OP's been updated with the teams and the ESPN article on the game for those who want it.

Sgt_Pooly - I think we're struggling to find a broadcaster but looking on google people do seem to have links for it so I'm guessing it's being broadcast in Argentina by someone. Online may be our best bet for watching it live - the games are often on Youtube soon after they finish these days as well.

Very surprised it wasn't picked up by sky, online it may be then

Yeah same here. Given that the BBC got hold of the tests it would have been nice to see them broadcast this as well even if it was on one of unloved step child channels (BBC 3/4) or even the red button.

Anyone found a working stream online?

Same question as flankertye.

Would love a link to the game online if anyone has one.

Official RFU twitter stream suggests ESPN Uruguay for a legitimate, free link:

http://m.espn.go.com/deportes/video?vid=1815921&cid=834528&lang=es&src=desktop&cc=7586&wjb

Trying it myself now...

Afraid I'm struggling to find a working link as well. It's not looking good as far as watching the game goes!