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Why fighters can't win !!!!

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Why fighters can't win !!!! Empty Why fighters can't win !!!!

Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 30 Apr 2013, 9:11 pm

1 a) He never dominated a division...........Then again..
b) Should have looked for challenges instead of fighting stiffs...............

2 a) Never came through a war.......and had his heart tested....Then again
b) Maybe a la Whittaker he was too good to need a war!!

3. a) Never would have moved up to fight Hagler, Leonard, Hearns.......Then again
b) How do you quantify that statement........and Hagler never sought out Spinks but that's okay because it's Hagler!!

4 a) He never fought his best opponent so can't be top 10!!...Then again
b) S**t happens...........and it takes two to tango..........

5 a) He never fought is best opponent so can't be Top 10 !! Part deux.....Then again
b) Since when have legacies been defined on who you don't fight unless people are being pedantic!! Dempsey anybody??...........

Let's face if guys like Floyd can't make the top 10 list.........then no fighter born from 1970 onwards will ever make it..........


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Post by joeyjojo618 Tue 30 Apr 2013, 9:17 pm

These people probably hold it against RJJ that he didnt clean out the HW division whilst he was up there...

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Tue 30 Apr 2013, 9:22 pm

Look to achieve respect as a fighter you must complete the following tasks

1) Fight the best in your division and beat them
2) Dominate at least 1 division in your career
3) Never duck dangerous fighters who the fans demand you fight
4) Avenge any defeats on your record
5) If you go down...get up and win.
6) When embroiled in a war show heart, negate skill, and win.

This list does not apply to fighters with bad chins who are constantly calling out Floyd Mayweather.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 30 Apr 2013, 9:24 pm

I think like all sports Joey that there is a reluctance to acknowledge the younger generation...

You still get old golfers saying Nicklaus was better than Woods......forgetting the fact competition is much stiffer these days and Nicklaus only really had three or four golfers to worry about!!

Maybe it's a jealousy think putting people down in case they eclipse their heroes or something...

All I want to see is a fair rating system........for all fighters.

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Post by TopHat24/7 Tue 30 Apr 2013, 9:24 pm

Floyd will make it in time, the passage of which seems to favour how well fighters are viewed.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 30 Apr 2013, 9:26 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Look to achieve respect as a fighter you must complete the following tasks

1) Fight the best in your division and beat them
2) Dominate at least 1 division in your career
3) Never duck dangerous fighters who the fans demand you fight
4) Avenge any defeats on your record
5) If you go down...get up and win.
6) When embroiled in a war show heart, negate skill, and win.

This list does not apply to fighters with bad chins who are constantly calling out Floyd Mayweather.

Hagler beat the best in his division.........but would you have preferred him to fight spinks.............Mayweather was 24 pounds higher than his first title when he beat Oscar..........Spinks routinely came in at 172..........That's only 12 away..

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Post by Guest Tue 30 Apr 2013, 9:31 pm

If memory serves correctly, you occasionally used Marv's refusal to move up and face Spinks as a stick to beat him with. You also criticise him for the draw with Vito when even Leanard says the decision was a bad one

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 30 Apr 2013, 9:34 pm

Well If Leonard say's it.. must be true...........

Alan Minter scored it for Vito.........but each to their own................

It was contentious not a robbery and it was Marv's fault as was Hagler-Duran another shocking display.

Nice guy though!

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Tue 30 Apr 2013, 9:36 pm

You are right TRUSS fighters can't win but those we remember fondly with respect all seem to have a few things in common.

1) They fought and sometimes beat other great fighters
2) Involved in memorable fights that people can look back on.
3) Became a symbol for their particular people and remain very much loved.
4) Were known as thee champion of their division. Not just fighting for belts here and there but were seen as the dominate force of their division like Lennox Lewis for example, seen as thee number 1 heavy without question in his time and never just picked up belts so they could appear on George Lopez show acting like they are the true champs and calling out Mayweather whilst struggling against Tijuana cab drivers.

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Post by Strongback Tue 30 Apr 2013, 9:37 pm

Look if Truss was consistent there'd be no point in having him around.

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Post by WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs Tue 30 Apr 2013, 9:39 pm

He's an unbeaten fighter who's record is still lacking

1.) There were lots of fighters who he could beat that weren't stiffs and would have added to his legacy. Canelo at 154, Pacquiao, Cotto, Marg, Williams at 147, Tyszu at 140, Mosley at 135 etc

2.) No-one makes that point in regards to Floyd being in the top 10, its the opposition

3.) Hagler isn't in anyone's top 10 as no-ones trying to prove he's worthy of top 10

4.) It does take 2, but the really top fighters normally make it happen as Floyd was the one making the demands

5.) Who you don't fight does count especially when you've fought sub par opposition when they're are tougher opponents out there

Floyd hasn't proved himself agaisnt top opposition to warrant a top 10 place and is being 11-15 P4P of all time (which many have him atm, no lower than 20) a bad thing

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 30 Apr 2013, 9:39 pm

But these were mainly pre-alphabet days..................Louis...Dempsey never beat anybody great they are in some top 10 lists.....

Sometimes the criteria isn't available for those to attain..........Yet some are criticised for it and others get a free pass.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 30 Apr 2013, 9:41 pm

WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs wrote:He's an unbeaten fighter who's record is still lacking

1.) There were lots of fighters who he could beat that weren't stiffs and would have added to his legacy. Canelo at 154, Pacquiao, Cotto, Marg, Williams at 147, Tyszu at 140, Mosley at 135 etc

2.) No-one makes that point in regards to Floyd being in the top 10, its the opposition

3.) Hagler isn't in anyone's top 10 as no-ones trying to prove he's worthy of top 10

4.) It does take 2, but the really top fighters normally make it happen as Floyd was the one making the demands

5.) Who you don't fight does count especially when you've fought sub par opposition when they're are tougher opponents out there

Floyd hasn't proved himself agaisnt top opposition to warrant a top 10 place and is being 11-15 P4P of all time (which many have him atm, no lower than 20) a bad thing

Scraping the barrel..........He's beaten top10 p4pers three times............Williams ???? The poor Man's Breland.....

His record is excellent....Give me a fighter who's record matches it in the last 20 years..............

You like Larry Holmes....................Page, Thomas all avoided............Top 5 heavy who moans about him...........

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Post by hazharrison Tue 30 Apr 2013, 9:59 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote: His record is excellent....Give me a fighter who's record matches it in the last 20 years...

Pacquiao? Jones? Hopkins?

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Post by Diamond in the rough Tue 30 Apr 2013, 10:02 pm

Floyd can't clean out a division he was slated for taking on Alexander who is a belt holder and world champ

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Post by hazharrison Tue 30 Apr 2013, 10:03 pm

Who are these top pound-for-pounders by the way?

Oscar was semi-retired and had been thumped by Mosley, Sturm and Hopkins. The only win he'd recorded was against punchbag-for-hire Ricardo Mayorga.

Floyd just needed to be the man at welterweight -- like Hagler was at middleweight -- and take on all-comers. If he had, and stayed on top, he'd probably have made top ten.

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Post by hazharrison Tue 30 Apr 2013, 10:16 pm

Diamond in the rough wrote:Floyd can't clean out a division he was slated for taking on Alexander who is a belt holder and world champ

That's a valid point. The PPV model doesn't allow for fighters to take on fighters that won't sell.

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Post by WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs Tue 30 Apr 2013, 10:19 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs wrote:He's an unbeaten fighter who's record is still lacking

1.) There were lots of fighters who he could beat that weren't stiffs and would have added to his legacy. Canelo at 154, Pacquiao, Cotto, Marg, Williams at 147, Tyszu at 140, Mosley at 135 etc

2.) No-one makes that point in regards to Floyd being in the top 10, its the opposition

3.) Hagler isn't in anyone's top 10 as no-ones trying to prove he's worthy of top 10

4.) It does take 2, but the really top fighters normally make it happen as Floyd was the one making the demands

5.) Who you don't fight does count especially when you've fought sub par opposition when they're are tougher opponents out there

Floyd hasn't proved himself agaisnt top opposition to warrant a top 10 place and is being 11-15 P4P of all time (which many have him atm, no lower than 20) a bad thing

Scraping the barrel..........He's beaten top10 p4pers three times............Williams ???? The poor Man's Breland.....

His record is excellent....Give me a fighter who's record matches it in the last 20 years..............

You like Larry Holmes....................Page, Thomas all avoided............Top 5 heavy who moans about him...........

Hahaha! 3 top 10 fighters, he's definately in the top 10 greatest fighters of all time

Mock Williams if you want but if Floyd wasn't afraid then he would have fought him. After all you said Williams was nothing but a 'poor mans Breland' so it must have been an easy floyd win. Fact remains that a win over williams would have meant a damn sight more tha Baldomir, Judah, JMM, Gatti etc

Don't see what Larry has anything to do with this, he's not in anyone's top 10 p4p fighters of all time

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 30 Apr 2013, 10:19 pm

hazharrison wrote:Who are these top pound-for-pounders by the way?

Oscar was semi-retired and had been thumped by Mosley, Sturm and Hopkins. The only win he'd recorded was against punchbag-for-hire Ricardo Mayorga.

Floyd just needed to be the man at welterweight -- like Hagler was at middleweight -- and take on all-comers. If he had, and stayed on top, he'd probably have made top ten.

From the guy who has Holyfield in his top 5...

Thumped by Mosley!! Not much point in arguing with a guy who thought Mosley thumped him........He beat sturm by the way...

Don't waste my time.

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Post by BoxingFan88 Tue 30 Apr 2013, 10:38 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
hazharrison wrote:Who are these top pound-for-pounders by the way?

Oscar was semi-retired and had been thumped by Mosley, Sturm and Hopkins. The only win he'd recorded was against punchbag-for-hire Ricardo Mayorga.

Floyd just needed to be the man at welterweight -- like Hagler was at middleweight -- and take on all-comers. If he had, and stayed on top, he'd probably have made top ten.

From the guy who has Holyfield in his top 5...

Thumped by Mosley!! Not much point in arguing with a guy who thought Mosley thumped him........He beat sturm by the way...

Don't waste my time.

I have never seen the fight, but the way I heard it Oscar was a unlucky not to get the nod against Mosley.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 30 Apr 2013, 10:42 pm

I gave him both fights..........

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Post by 88Chris05 Tue 30 Apr 2013, 10:52 pm

No doubt in my mind that Shane deservedly beat Oscar first time out. Superb fight and it was that win which made Mosley part of that three-way race for pound for pound supremacy along with Jones and Trinidad which was talked about so much throughout 2000 and 2001.

I think on the whole, Oscar is pretty unlucky to have the 'L' on his record for their rematch, though. Again, De la Hoya (as was often his problem) was running out of puff a little bit near the end and Mosley put in a strong finish, and in fairness I did only have it to Oscar by two, but it was one of those fights which, although relatively close, seemed to have 'close decision to fighter A' written all over it, with Oscar being fighter A in this case. I thought most of the rounds were fairly easy to score and, as a general rule, Oscar bagged seven of them beyond any doubt.

Mosley and his old man Jack both looked extremely surprised when the verdict was announced, to say the least!

And obviously, even in light of the decision, you can argue that the fight should retrospectively have been declared a No Contest in light of Shane admitting that he was on the juice for it after BALCO was toppled.

Shane's always had one of the better physiques going in or around his weight classes, but he was notably different for that De la Hoya rematch; his muscle mass was crazy for a converted Lightweight fighting at 154, and his shoulders looks about twice as wide as Oscar's!


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Post by Diamond in the rough Tue 30 Apr 2013, 10:53 pm

BoxingFan88 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
hazharrison wrote:Who are these top pound-for-pounders by the way?

Oscar was semi-retired and had been thumped by Mosley, Sturm and Hopkins. The only win he'd recorded was against punchbag-for-hire Ricardo Mayorga.

Floyd just needed to be the man at welterweight -- like Hagler was at middleweight -- and take on all-comers. If he had, and stayed on top, he'd probably have made top ten.

From the guy who has Holyfield in his top 5...

Thumped by Mosley!! Not much point in arguing with a guy who thought Mosley thumped him........He beat sturm by the way...




Don't waste my time.

I have never seen the fight, but the way I heard it Oscar was a unlucky not to get the nod against Mosley.


Wasn't mosley juicing for that fight anyway

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Post by hazharrison Tue 30 Apr 2013, 11:08 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
hazharrison wrote:Who are these top pound-for-pounders by the way?

Oscar was semi-retired and had been thumped by Mosley, Sturm and Hopkins. The only win he'd recorded was against punchbag-for-hire Ricardo Mayorga.

Floyd just needed to be the man at welterweight -- like Hagler was at middleweight -- and take on all-comers. If he had, and stayed on top, he'd probably have made top ten.

From the guy who has Holyfield in his top 5...

Thumped by Mosley!! Not much point in arguing with a guy who thought Mosley thumped him........He beat sturm by the way...

Don't waste my time.

Holyfield top 5? You must have me mistaken with someone else.

Thumped by Mosley, yes (albeit a steroid fuelled version). Ans while he was given the decision over Sturm, most felt he had been soundly beaten.


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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 30 Apr 2013, 11:10 pm

Thumped by Mosley...............ok............

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Post by hazharrison Tue 30 Apr 2013, 11:11 pm

88Chris05 wrote:No doubt in my mind that Shane deservedly beat Oscar first time out. Superb fight and it was that win which made Mosley part of that three-way race for pound for pound supremacy along with Jones and Trinidad which was talked about so much throughout 2000 and 2001.

I think on the whole, Oscar is pretty unlucky to have the 'L' on his record for their rematch, though. Again, De la Hoya (as was often his problem) was running out of puff a little bit near the end and Mosley put in a strong finish, and in fairness I did only have it to Oscar by two, but it was one of those fights which, although relatively close, seemed to have 'close decision to fighter A' written all over it, with Oscar being fighter A in this case. I thought most of the rounds were fairly easy to score and, as a general rule, Oscar bagged seven of them beyond any doubt.

Mosley and his old man Jack both looked extremely surprised when the verdict was announced, to say the least!

And obviously, even in light of the decision, you can argue that the fight should retrospectively have been declared a No Contest in light of Shane admitting that he was on the juice for it after BALCO was toppled.

Shane's always had one of the better physiques going in or around his weight classes, but he was notably different for that De la Hoya rematch; his muscle mass was crazy for a converted Lightweight fighting at 154, and his shoulders looks about twice as wide as Oscar's!

Oscar was nicking rounds with his scattergun punches (many of which often missed), however, Mosley was pounding him to the body (which took its toll late). Mosley did more damage, Oscar threw more punches.

Mosley should indeed have been stripped of the win. I also feel he should have received a lifetime ban.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 30 Apr 2013, 11:12 pm

He wasn't nicking rounds he was being thumped...........

Whereas Duran lost a close one to Hearns.

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Post by hazharrison Tue 30 Apr 2013, 11:13 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Thumped by Mosley...............ok............

Mosley battered Oscar's body. I bet he felt thumped the next morning.

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Post by hazharrison Tue 30 Apr 2013, 11:13 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He wasn't nicking rounds he was being thumped...........

Whereas Duran lost a close one to Hearns.

You're like a big kid.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 30 Apr 2013, 11:14 pm

I want to know what you regard as a thumping......

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Post by hazharrison Tue 30 Apr 2013, 11:17 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I want to know what you regard as a thumping......

What does it matter? He lost to Mosley. Is that better?

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 30 Apr 2013, 11:17 pm

Yes it is better and less stupid than thumping............


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