Robshaw

So Robshaw who has picked up a shed load of MOTM awards both domestically in the HK and internationally and was one of the star performers of the 6 nations doesn't get picked. yet Lydiate who has hardly any games under his belt due to injury has played a handful of games since comming back and lloked average does get in. Warran fatland you are a idiot.

Croft also got in ahead of him, as did Sean O Brien.

Lydiate to me, is just as big a surprise selection as Croft.

Add to that Kelly Brown and Tom Wood

Dry ya eyes mate.............

Shall we not judge Gats on results rather than selections or am I missing something?

Ye you seemed to forget Croft in your summation, no bias here then!

Think he would have been an ideal candidate for midweek captain. A good leader and would have given that team focus and more than capable of coming in to the test team if required.

Gethin Jenkins the reserve Toulon prop gets in ahead of the first team player. Very odd.

Reminds me of 05 when players coming back from injury were picked over guys who just won a grand slam

Taffineastbourne wrote:Shall we not judge Gats on results rather than selections or am I missing something?

No. He has picked his personal favourites over the form and fit players. He hasn't considered French based guys since they cant commit but selects Gethin...

he should never have been head coach and I said that from the start

There was a lot of competition at flanker. While Robshaw may feel hard done by most people would have picked Warburton and Tipuric ahead of him. Really Brown and Wood are probably more unlucky as they lost out to Lydiate and Croft who are only recently back from injury.

Exiledinborders wrote:Gethin Jenkins the reserve Toulon prop gets in ahead of the first team player. Very odd.

Not really, Sheridan can't cover ground, and Aus will be avoiding the scrum, Vunipola is another pick over the likes of James and Grant that makes the same sense

All I can think of is that Robshaw is probably in need of a good rest. (Same might be said of Brown). Some of the returning players will be, if they hit form, a good deal fresher than some who have played hard all season.

I think Farrell too could do with a break but there are no stand out alternatives.

LondonTiger wrote:There was a lot of competition at flanker. While Robshaw may feel hard done by most people would have picked Warburton and Tipuric ahead of him. Really Brown and Wood are probably more unlucky as they lost out to Lydiate and Croft who are only recently back from injury.

+1 nice to see some sense

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:Shall we not judge Gats on results rather than selections or am I missing something?

No. He has picked his personal favourites over the form and fit players. He hasn't considered French based guys since they cant commit but selects Gethin...

he should never have been head coach and I said that from the start

Here's one supporter we won't miss.

mikey_philVIII wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:Shall we not judge Gats on results rather than selections or am I missing something?

No. He has picked his personal favourites over the form and fit players. He hasn't considered French based guys since they cant commit but selects Gethin...

he should never have been head coach and I said that from the start

Here's one supporter we won't miss.

Well when your team comes in the 6 nations last you expect to have a small number of players

but when you come third to have 3 times less players than the team that came bottom of the home nations..........

Well a summer of bish bash bosh rugby to look forward- - at least that worked the last 7 times he tried it d'oh

Robshaw just has to reapply himself and not get his head down... I still think he has a great chance to lift the RWC in 2015... more so then any other home nations captain... that in itself surpasses being a lions IMO.

mikey_philVIII wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:Shall we not judge Gats on results rather than selections or am I missing something?

No. He has picked his personal favourites over the form and fit players. He hasn't considered French based guys since they cant commit but selects Gethin...

he should never have been head coach and I said that from the start

Here's one supporter we won't miss.

Can you really say hand in heart that Lydiate has done more this year to merit selection above Brown, Robshaw or Wood?

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:Gethin Jenkins the reserve Toulon prop gets in ahead of the first team player. Very odd.

Not really, Sheridan can't cover ground, and Aus will be avoiding the scrum, Vunipola is another pick over the likes of James and Grant that makes the same sense

Except he can't scrummage. Other than that the boy is a fantastic fat centre Opps I mean prop

dragonbreath wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:Gethin Jenkins the reserve Toulon prop gets in ahead of the first team player. Very odd.

Not really, Sheridan can't cover ground, and Aus will be avoiding the scrum, Vunipola is another pick over the likes of James and Grant that makes the same sense

Except he can't scrummage. Other than that the boy is a fantastic fat centre Opps I mean prop

Ye with the tight 5 options the lions have, and the fact he'll be a bench option the Aus team will really look to put his scrummaging to the sword won't they?! Come on...

Sheridan played himself out when he was destroyed in the scrum by Cole in the HC. He was never going to make the lions

Really tough on Robshaw I think. Isn't it strange to think how different selection might have been if England had have beaten Wales in Cardiff?

Ulster12 wrote:Really tough on Robshaw I think. Isn't it strange to think how different selection might have been if England had have beaten Wales in Cardiff?

See I don't get that, I went back and disected the game from a statistical POV and Robshaw and Cole were excellent that day!!!

I think Robshaw and Best are the 2 big ommisions, but think Robshaw will get the chance to travel with Croft, Lydiate and Warbs all prone to injury recently!

Gatlands one game wonders!

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

mikey_philVIII wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:Shall we not judge Gats on results rather than selections or am I missing something?

No. He has picked his personal favourites over the form and fit players. He hasn't considered French based guys since they cant commit but selects Gethin...

he should never have been head coach and I said that from the start

Here's one supporter we won't miss.

Can you really say hand in heart that Lydiate has done more this year to merit selection above Brown, Robshaw or Wood?

No but Lydiate has proved before that he is a better player hense the selection. Two England coaches were part of that selection panel as well, I would say that it is a conclusive decision by those in the know.

You do realise Gethin has got leave from Toloun so will be on the plane from the very start right ?

Difference is that Robshaw shouldn't be competing with Warbs or Tipuric as he is naturally a 6 and they are 7s. That said, I don't think anyone thinks he should have been picked ahead of either of those two Welsh guys, it is the selection of Lydiate that is causing so much discontent. I can see that Croft may be good on the fast pitches down under, but he is lucky. Picking Lydiate over Robshaw or Brown is just plane insane. Yes, I am English, but I can see it from the other angle: what Stevens and Hartley are doing on the plane, I will never understand. I think Mr.Best must have done something horrid to Mr.Gatland in a previous life!

Yeah gotta say Robshaw is a curious one...hes just so consistently good, a bit like Launchbury...
But hey good players were bound to miss out...theres so much competition and as i said on the lions thread...Gatland has picked three 6's that offer totally different things.
Lydiate - The tackler and rucker.
O'Brien - The big ball carrier
Croft - The speedster, lineout king.

They give options. Not every one was gonna be happy what ever squad was selected.

Now give Robshaw the summer of to recharge the batteries.

Robshaw just has to reapply himself and not get his head down... I still think he has a great chance to lift the RWC in 2015... more so then any other home nations captain... that in itself surpasses being a lions IMO..

The strange thing is he has two VERY good 7's coming through in Fraser and Kvesic that will come very close to taking his shirt...and they are more traditional 7's if you like. And we'll get a glimpse of them in England shirts in Argentina...

Bluesman I completely agree!thought Robshaw and Cole were outstanding in defeat, hopefully he will be at the top of the list of injury reserves.

But something tells me he is pigeon holed as a 'soft ground' player when they are looking for pace on hard grounds. Then again that makes no sense with Lydiate being a very similar chopping blindside who I don't feel has the soft hands of Robshaw which could come in handy.

Ah well, we'll never know what went on in that selection room I suppose until the DVD comes out!!!!

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

mikey_philVIII wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:Shall we not judge Gats on results rather than selections or am I missing something?

No. He has picked his personal favourites over the form and fit players. He hasn't considered French based guys since they cant commit but selects Gethin...

he should never have been head coach and I said that from the start

Here's one supporter we won't miss.

Can you really say hand in heart that Lydiate has done more this year to merit selection above Brown, Robshaw or Wood?

If you have payed attention to any of the comments this morning then you'd see I aired my thoughts on those particular selections.

Ulster12 wrote:

But something tells me he is pigeon holed as a 'soft ground' player when they are looking for pace on hard grounds.

That would be harsh if true - Quins are always far better at the very start and end of seasons when their high tempo offloading game can work.

Dragonsbreath - Gethin Jenkins cant scrummage?

Did I watch someone else start at LH and help destroy numerous packs in the 6nations come scrumtime.....

I digress. Robshaw was unlucky to miss out, as was Brown/Wood. None as unlucky as Best imo.

maestegmafia wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

mikey_philVIII wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:Shall we not judge Gats on results rather than selections or am I missing something?

No. He has picked his personal favourites over the form and fit players. He hasn't considered French based guys since they cant commit but selects Gethin...

he should never have been head coach and I said that from the start

Here's one supporter we won't miss.

Can you really say hand in heart that Lydiate has done more this year to merit selection above Brown, Robshaw or Wood?

No but Lydiate has proved before that he is a better player hense the selection. Two England coaches were part of that selection panel as well, I would say that it is a conclusive decision by those in the know.

When has he ever done this?

Lydiate and Warburton are 2 players close to Gatlands heart.... it was obvious they would have been favoured highly.

All in all, had Gatland not been the coach then in all probability Warburton would not have been captain and Lydiate would not have been selected. But thats life.

I'm probably going to start a row here but I am trying to be genuine as I rarely see any Cardiff blues games. Is Warburton really that good?

I heard of him for a few years being the pretender to Martyn Williams at 7 when he was very young and that he was a very good 'jackler', good at winning turnovers and a good leader being u20s captain (from no.8 I believe).

Then he was very injury prone and didn't win many caps with Williams being there still. After Williams retirement he was made captain for the 2011 World Cup and played well,winning turnovers and making some good covering tackles.

After the world cup then I don't recall him actually putting together a run of games where he was really setting the world alight (a la Sean O'Brien in his player of the year season, or Tom Croft/Heaslip in 2009, or dare I say it Robshaw last year!)

He was in terrible during this years six nations and was rightfully dropped for the in form Tipuric,then he had a decent game against England at 6, but behind a very dominant pack and with a fellow fetcher on the pitch with him and the Wales backline on fire.

I'm very happy to be proven wrong, but I just don't see what it is with him, I don't see the huge hits, I don't see him as a carrier at all, he does make a few turnovers but I don't think that's enough, for example Richie McCaw does a hell of a lot more than just get turnovers, he carries,he knocks people back, and is prolific in open play.

I'm sorry if this drives Wales fans mad but I just don't see it. Happy to be educated on what he does week in week out, I play AIL at 7 so I try to watch all the pro open sides when games are on to look at their work rate, tackles, carries, breakdown work,line outs etc and during the six nations and the australia series last year I just haven't been impressed with him. Does he do enough 'unseen' work a la Simon Easterby, Richard Hill that I'm just missing from not seeing the blues?

fa0019 wrote:Lydiate and Warburton are 2 players close to Gatlands heart.... it was obvious they would have been favoured highly.

All in all, had Gatland not been the coach then in all probability Warburton would not have been captain and Lydiate would not have been selected. But thats life.

I think that there's a reasonable amount of truth in the above. Then again, as England fans we can hardly complain given wat Woodward did with his Lions squad...

I do though wonder what Robshaw would have to have done to get picked (other than play for Wales). IIRC, 2 man of the match awards in the 6Ns and having been one of England's best and most consistent performers over the last 12 months. Maybe if he'd lost out to Kelly Brown (Scotland's outstanding forward of the 6Ns) then fair enough, but to miss out to Croft (no international form this year) and Lydiate (hardly a match all year) is a sickener.

Agree with an earlier comment that he'd have been an outstanding candidate to be the captain of the midweek side.

This allegation of favouritism was always going to arise in the event of a Welsh player getting the nod in a close call. The bottom line is that Gatland has worked with these players, knows what they offer, how they train, who they are. There's so little time before the first Test and in a close call, his knowledge / understanding of these players is a sort of head start. It's more about expedience than favouritism.

That's not to justify his decisions, but it does explain them.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Ye you seemed to forget Croft in your summation, no bias here then!

Croft has played well in the hc and the league.

The back row is such an area of strength deserving players were always going to miss out.Very harsh on robshaw and brown and even beattie.
Every coach has his favourites and garlands are lydiate,craft and heaslip who have all Beend picked on reputation,rightly or wrongly.

dummy_half wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Lydiate and Warburton are 2 players close to Gatlands heart.... it was obvious they would have been favoured highly.

All in all, had Gatland not been the coach then in all probability Warburton would not have been captain and Lydiate would not have been selected. But thats life.

I think that there's a reasonable amount of truth in the above. Then again, as England fans we can hardly complain given wat Woodward did with his Lions squad...

I do though wonder what Robshaw would have to have done to get picked (other than play for Wales). IIRC, 2 man of the match awards in the 6Ns and having been one of England's best and most consistent performers over the last 12 months. Maybe if he'd lost out to Kelly Brown (Scotland's outstanding forward of the 6Ns) then fair enough, but to miss out to Croft (no international form this year) and Lydiate (hardly a match all year) is a sickener.

Agree with an earlier comment that he'd have been an outstanding candidate to be the captain of the midweek side.

I think this is where people are getting confused about certain decisions. The lions are not picked on just international form, there picked on any games where the intensity is as high.

Lydiate reminds Gatland of Worsley, a good athlete and constant tackler and complements a fetcher and ball carrier. In isolation he is good at what he does and no more as a ball carrier or lineout option is not his game.

Lions selections usually carry an element of flexibility but Gatland has gone for specialists in all three back row positions and that is Robshaws downfall as he is good at all three.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:This allegation of favouritism was always going to arise in the event of a Welsh player getting the nod in a close call. The bottom line is that Gatland has worked with these players, knows what they offer, how they train, who they are. There's so little time before the first Test and in a close call, his knowledge / understanding of these players is a sort of head start. It's more about expedience than favouritism.

That's not to justify his decisions, but it does explain them.

I agree, coaches will always have favourites... most coaches would not have Robshaw in their lineup at 7 for England over more conventional 7s.... but Lancaster is a believer and happens to be head England coach.

Lydiate and Warburton are the same with Gatland... he developed them, he gave them theirs starts and knows them better then most and what they can achieve. Had Gatland not been coach I doubt Lydiate would have toured and Warburton been captain but thats rugby.

Same with SCW and Wilkinson, Back and Hill in 05.

Heaslip is another back row captain but won very MOM or matches but he is going.....

nathan

I'm not confused by the decision, just think Gatland's got the call wrong. And I say this as someone who thinks Croft gets a lot of unfair criticism - he's undoubtedly a very good player and offers a very specific skill set that makes him different from the other #6 options, and potentially a particular weapon in fast conditions. However, to not select 2 players in Robshaw and Brown who have been the outstanding forwards for their respective national teams this year and prefer Croft and Lydiate (for me an even worse selection, because he's not even played enough club rugby to demonstrate any decent form) is hard to justify.

Recwatcher wrote:Lydiate reminds Gatland of Worsley, a good athlete and constant tackler and complements a fetcher and ball carrier. In isolation he is good at what he does and no more as a ball carrier or lineout option is not his game.

Lions selections usually carry an element of flexibility but Gatland has gone for specialists in all three back row positions and that is Robshaws downfall as he is good at all three.

This is true, and Robshaw is good at all 3, but where your logic falls down is the fact that he does all of these things to a better standard than Lydiate. The stats for both of them in the 2012 6N have robshaw come out on top in carries, tackles made , tackle % and passes (turnovers as well, but thats not really a fair comparison). So why would you pick a guy who makes less tackles at a lower completion rate than someone else who also adds a whole lot more to his game?

Have you got a link ?

I don't people would celebrate Robshaw so much if he wasn't the England Captain.

I do remember him being slaughtered on here for making the wrong decisions against Australia

Recwatcher wrote:

I think this is where people are getting confused about certain decisions. The lions are not picked on just international form, there picked on any games where the intensity is as high.

You mean like the Heineken Cup? If that were the case there'd be more Harlequins players than Welsh players.

Given that the lions are a scratch team going up against an quality national side like Australia, I think that Gatland is probably just trying to overcome that central weakness in the Lions setup by picking units of players wherever he credibly can, which explains some of these selections.

However, I personally wouldn't have had Robshaw as being in the top 2 at either flanker position - he's really a 6.5 rather than a full 6 or 7. There are just better players who specialise in those positions ahead of him.

belovedfrosties wrote:

Recwatcher wrote:Lydiate reminds Gatland of Worsley, a good athlete and constant tackler and complements a fetcher and ball carrier. In isolation he is good at what he does and no more as a ball carrier or lineout option is not his game.

Lions selections usually carry an element of flexibility but Gatland has gone for specialists in all three back row positions and that is Robshaws downfall as he is good at all three.

This is true, and Robshaw is good at all 3, but where your logic falls down is the fact that he does all of these things to a better standard than Lydiate. The stats for both of them in the 2012 6N have robshaw come out on top in carries, tackles made , tackle % and passes (turnovers as well, but thats not really a fair comparison). So why would you pick a guy who makes less tackles at a lower completion rate than someone else who also adds a whole lot more to his game?

Lydiate was player of the tournament that year. Obviously some are unlucky to miss out, but it was always going to happen. With someone like Lydiate, its not like he has played badly, just injured and if the Coach believes him fit then I guess he just thinks he is the better suited player.
However im still gobsmacked that Best isnt picked.

If I remember correctly best's throwing stats in the 6N were awful.