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Robshaw

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Post by wrfc1980 Tue 30 Apr 2013, 12:20 pm

First topic message reminder :

So Robshaw who has picked up a shed load of MOTM awards both domestically in the HK and internationally and was one of the star performers of the 6 nations doesn't get picked. yet Lydiate who has hardly any games under his belt due to injury has played a handful of games since comming back and lloked average does get in. Warran fatland you are a idiot.

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Post by glamorganalun Tue 30 Apr 2013, 2:25 pm

I can't understand the comments regarding Robshaw and Brown, they played 7 during the 6N therefore they are not up against Lydiate they should be against SOB who in my opinion is not a 7, 6 or 8. The guy who has a gripe for selection is at 6 is Ryan Jones, he missed out last time because Gatland pick a clown that had no chance of a test place.

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Post by sickofwendy Tue 30 Apr 2013, 2:28 pm

In your opinion what is o'brien then?

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Post by fa0019 Tue 30 Apr 2013, 2:28 pm

glamorganalun wrote:I can't understand the comments regarding Robshaw and Brown, they played 7 during the 6N therefore they are not up against Lydiate they should be against SOB who in my opinion is not a 7, 6 or 8. The guy who has a gripe for selection is at 6 is Ryan Jones, he missed out last time because Gatland pick a clown that had no chance of a test place.

Who was the clown? Powell???

Jones was playing very badly in 09 mind.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 30 Apr 2013, 2:36 pm

Ireland were awful.... let's not single out Best.


....but anyway...Robshaw? It's the combinations, innit? The combinations.

ExcuseBook1, subsection B, paragraph 6.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 30 Apr 2013, 2:39 pm

glamorganalun wrote:I can't understand the comments regarding Robshaw and Brown, they played 7 during the 6N therefore they are not up against Lydiate they should be against SOB who in my opinion is not a 7, 6 or 8. The guy who has a gripe for selection is at 6 is Ryan Jones, he missed out last time because Gatland pick a clown that had no chance of a test place.

He's not a number but still has stormers, and has been having a great end of season run. I think a few more no numbered guys should have got a call then.

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Post by Exiledinborders Tue 30 Apr 2013, 2:42 pm

munkian wrote:You do realise Gethin has got leave from Toloun so will be on the plane from the very start right ?


Because Toulon do not rate him compared to Sheridan.

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Post by mikey_philVIII Tue 30 Apr 2013, 2:51 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
munkian wrote:You do realise Gethin has got leave from Toloun so will be on the plane from the very start right ?


Because Toulon do not rate him compared to Sheridan.

Wales rate him though. As do the Lions selectors. This is the same Geth who dominated his opposition in the Italy and England games. Sheridan was dominated by Cole just a couple weeks ago.

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Post by belovedfrosties Tue 30 Apr 2013, 3:55 pm

kingjohn7 wrote:
belovedfrosties wrote:
Recwatcher wrote:Lydiate reminds Gatland of Worsley, a good athlete and constant tackler and complements a fetcher and ball carrier. In isolation he is good at what he does and no more as a ball carrier or lineout option is not his game.

Lions selections usually carry an element of flexibility but Gatland has gone for specialists in all three back row positions and that is Robshaws downfall as he is good at all three.

This is true, and Robshaw is good at all 3, but where your logic falls down is the fact that he does all of these things to a better standard than Lydiate. The stats for both of them in the 2012 6N have robshaw come out on top in carries, tackles made , tackle % and passes (turnovers as well, but thats not really a fair comparison). So why would you pick a guy who makes less tackles at a lower completion rate than someone else who also adds a whole lot more to his game?

Lydiate was player of the tournament that year. Obviously some are unlucky to miss out, but it was always going to happen. With someone like Lydiate, its not like he has played badly, just injured and if the Coach believes him fit then I guess he just thinks he is the better suited player.
However im still gobsmacked that Best isnt picked.

I know he was, and the only reason he won it was due to the massive PR campaign launched by Jiffy on the BBC coverage. Remember that we had a poll on player of the tournament running through its duration? Ferris and Gray were running away with it until the final 2 weekends when the campaign started and all of a sudden Lydiate won it. He is a good player but in no way deserved that award, raved as being a tackling machine yet makes less tackles and misses more than others (Robshaw, Ferris and Dusatoir were all way ahead of him), explain the logic in that to me?

I would take Robshaw as a 6, its the position he is most suited to and with Tips and Warbs, he doesn't need to worry about fetching. Just tackle, carry, link play and smash every ruck he sees, he is outstanding in all of these areas.

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Post by munkian Tue 30 Apr 2013, 4:24 pm

Yes, we all just listen to Jiffy Erm

Did you see Lydiate smash anything that France threw at Wales ?
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Post by belovedfrosties Tue 30 Apr 2013, 4:56 pm

munkian wrote:Yes, we all just listen to Jiffy Erm

Did you see Lydiate smash anything that France threw at Wales ?

Did you see Robshaw smash anything that every team threw at england, as well as link up play and carry all day long?

In that France game Lydiate made 11 tackles (his highest in any one game during the 6N), when england played France Robshaw made 13 (his highest in 1 game was 16). Whether you like to admit it or not, people are influenced by what the commentators and analysts say, especially when every time Lydiate made a tackle there would be 3 super slo-mos of it and everyone creaming their pants about how great it was. It just makes it look like he does more than he actually does, the stats back this up.

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Post by Guest Tue 30 Apr 2013, 5:00 pm

belovedfrosties wrote:
munkian wrote:Yes, we all just listen to Jiffy Erm

Did you see Lydiate smash anything that France threw at Wales ?

Did you see Robshaw smash anything that every team threw at england, as well as link up play and carry all day long?

In that France game Lydiate made 11 tackles (his highest in any one game during the 6N), when england played France Robshaw made 13 (his highest in 1 game was 16). Whether you like to admit it or not, people are influenced by what the commentators and analysts say, especially when every time Lydiate made a tackle there would be 3 super slo-mos of it and everyone creaming their pants about how great it was. It just makes it look like he does more than he actually does, the stats back this up.

Didn't see any turnovers though, and many people (Warren Gatland apparently included) see 7 as a specialist position that you need a fetcher for. Can't see why Gatland would pick him as a 6 if he doesn't played there for England either.

Robshaw is what the americans call a tweener in my opinion. Capable of playing 6 or 7, but not really good enough for either at the very highest level.

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Post by sickofwendy Tue 30 Apr 2013, 5:06 pm

Tweener?
This is not the place for AMERICANISMS thumbsdown Very Happy

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Post by belovedfrosties Tue 30 Apr 2013, 5:10 pm

He is made to play at 6, and you say he's not really good enough to play either at the highest level yet comes out on top of Lydiate in every aspect of their games, so what does that say about Lydiates ability to play at the highest level?


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Post by maestegmafia Tue 30 Apr 2013, 5:21 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Taffineastbourne wrote:Shall we not judge Gats on results rather than selections or am I missing something?

No. He has picked his personal favourites over the form and fit players. He hasn't considered French based guys since they cant commit but selects Gethin...

he should never have been head coach and I said that from the start

He has quite often proved many posters on here wrong with his selections of so called "favourites" with good reason, because they are bloody good players.

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Post by Guest Wed 01 May 2013, 8:12 am

Chris who?
All this talk of Lydiate but POC has hardly played any rugby in the last two years!

All a little sour grapes to me, well done on the Welsh lads getting selected, well done to Captain Sam "right choice,always him or BOD"
the person i feel most sorry for is Dan Biggar , he has achieved far more at club and international level for years now compared to Owian Farrell.

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Post by rodders Wed 01 May 2013, 9:13 am

Robshaw is very unlucky but with Warburton and O'Brien selected maybe the dynamics weren't in his favour. His presence may have put additional pressure on Warburton's captaincy too.

Lydiate is a fairly average player imo. Ryan Jones, Kelly Brown and Robshaw all offer a lot more as tourists.
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Post by Scrumpy Wed 01 May 2013, 10:24 am

British and Irish Lions forwards coach Graham Rowntree says England captain Chris Robshaw is "unlucky" to have missed out on the tour to Australia.
Flanker Robshaw, 26, was left out of the 37-man squad named on Tuesday, led by Wales' Sam Warburton.

"He was upset and quite rightly so, he's been exceptional for England," Rowntree told BBC Radio 5 live.

"There's going to be injuries and Chris will be one of the first names we turn to. He's desperately unlucky."

Source BBC Sport

There will be injuries in the back row my guess would be Tom Croft and Dan Lydiate seeing as they have played little rugby this year, and injuries seem to follow long lay offs
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Post by RubyGuby Wed 01 May 2013, 10:30 am

"Lydiate is a fairly average player imo."

That would be the 2012 6 Nations player of the year - Open your eyes Rodders; watch this guy and then come back to me - Lydiate allows the other 2 to do the fancy stuff - it's all about back row balance and this guy is formidable. thumbsup

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Post by fa0019 Wed 01 May 2013, 10:33 am

Picking a guy who has just come back from a long term injury on his form 1 year ago is dangerous... remember wilkinson in 05.

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Post by Hookisms and Hyperbole Wed 01 May 2013, 11:00 am

Lydiate is a fairly average player. I remember this time three years ago when many fans bemoaned the selection of Joe Worsley as "sure, all he can do is tackle". Four years on the same type of player has been selected, even though he has been out for a long time with injury and has not excelled since he returned. Kelly Brown should be in the squad. It's a no brainer. I probably would also have had Ryan Jones in the squad in front of him.

This happened in 2005 when Woodward picked D'Arcy as he had been 2004 Six Nations player of the tournament but spent much of that season injured. How did that go? Not particularly well.

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Post by rodders Wed 01 May 2013, 11:05 am

RubyGuby wrote:"Lydiate is a fairly average player imo."

That would be the 2012 6 Nations player of the year

Aw come on Ruby sure they hand those awards out to anyone these days. Sure yer man Farrell is a world player of the year nominee and can't pass the length of himself.

Hes a bum, a poor mans Simon Easterbuy.
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 01 May 2013, 11:31 am

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Lydiate is a fairly average player. I remember this time three years ago when many fans bemoaned the selection of Joe Worsley as "sure, all he can do is tackle". Four years on the same type of player has been selected, even though he has been out for a long time with injury and has not excelled since he returned.

It's a shame you weren't at Rodney Parade the other Friday where he led the defensive line and chopped down everything that moved. Yes, it was only one game, and yes, Munster were resting players ahead of the Amlin semi-final; but don't say he hasn't excelled since he returned when he has, only you didn't see it.

Paul O'Connell hasn't been back long, but he's had the chance to prove his worth in big (and televised) games. It's not Dan Lydiate's fault that the Dragons are gash.

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Post by RubyGuby Wed 01 May 2013, 11:45 am

Well I'll sit back and let Dan do the talking - We can discuss in a couple of months thumbsup

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Post by dragonbreath Wed 01 May 2013, 12:09 pm

belovedfrosties wrote:
munkian wrote:Yes, we all just listen to Jiffy Erm

Did you see Lydiate smash anything that France threw at Wales ?

Did you see Robshaw smash anything that every team threw at england, as well as link up play and carry all day long?

In that France game Lydiate made 11 tackles (his highest in any one game during the 6N), when england played France Robshaw made 13 (his highest in 1 game was 16). Whether you like to admit it or not, people are influenced by what the commentators and analysts say, especially when every time Lydiate made a tackle there would be 3 super slo-mos of it and everyone creaming their pants about how great it was. It just makes it look like he does more than he actually does, the stats back this up.

You stat monkeys make me laugh. The reason that Lydiate is highly regarded is that when he tackles it often leads to the opportunity to turnover. His line speed also usually means that he tackles beyond the gain line and puts his team on the front foot. These are not defensive tackles but offensive tackles. This is why Lydiates "11" tackles are more effective and important to the success of the team than Robshaws 13, 23, or 33.

Having said that Lydiate is very fortunate to travel given his long lay off, and Robshaw, Brown and lets not forget Ryan Jones have every right to be furious.

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Post by SecretFly Wed 01 May 2013, 12:13 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Paul O'Connell hasn't been back long, but he's had the chance to prove his worth in big (and televised) games. It's not Dan Lydiate's fault that the Dragons are gash.

Funny, I read a lot of print after Quins/Munster and even a touch of it post Clermont/Munster that if it wasn't for a big leading giant with a hot red shaven head, Munster too would have been 'gash'...and were pretty much just 'gash' all season in his absence?

Dan Lydiate shouldn't be waiting for a team to cook beside him surely? Isn't the idea that these special players come in and turn water into wine by their mere presence?

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 01 May 2013, 12:16 pm

Fly, it's clear that Munster haven't been gash all season, or they wouldn't have qualified for the matches you mention.

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Post by RubyGuby Wed 01 May 2013, 12:18 pm

There's Gash, Poor Gash and then there's the Dragons - Turning Urine into water would have been the first goal - Wine is a long way off thumbsup

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Post by Guest Wed 01 May 2013, 12:19 pm

It consistently amazes me how one-eyed some people get when it comes to Chris Robshaw. I'm not sure that, personally, I'd have him as top of the lists of English qualified 6s or 7s, never mind British/Irish.

Anyone looking for a laugh should head over to the quins message board - they're seriously unhappy over there!

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Post by Hookisms and Hyperbole Wed 01 May 2013, 12:28 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Lydiate is a fairly average player. I remember this time three years ago when many fans bemoaned the selection of Joe Worsley as "sure, all he can do is tackle". Four years on the same type of player has been selected, even though he has been out for a long time with injury and has not excelled since he returned.

It's a shame you weren't at Rodney Parade the other Friday where he led the defensive line and chopped down everything that moved. Yes, it was only one game, and yes, Munster were resting players ahead of the Amlin semi-final; but don't say he hasn't excelled since he returned when he has, only you didn't see it.

Paul O'Connell hasn't been back long, but he's had the chance to prove his worth in big (and televised) games. It's not Dan Lydiate's fault that the Dragons are gash.

Indeed, I didn't see that match but I shall certainly take your word on it. I was at Ravenhill where I saw two Lions backrows utterly dominated by the might of Diack, McComish and Williams. Also, I think it might be fair to argue that there is slight setup in class between a mostly reserve Munster side and Australia. Lydiate is a very, very fortunate selection especially considering the likes of Wood and Kelly Brown. His selection says very clearly that Gatland intends to start with at least two thirds of his Welsh grand slam winning backrow. Fingers crossed it works. I'm not really bothered about who goes, I just want them to win. I wouldn't have picked Warburton to be captain and I wouldn't have him in my starting test match team. But I reckon when the Lions gets going the pressure and expectation will cause him to have an epic tour.

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Post by lostinwales Wed 01 May 2013, 12:33 pm

I was a Robshaw sceptic. I am not anymore. He does an amazing amount of work.

If Fraser and Kvesic can prove themselves better players then they will be very special.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 01 May 2013, 12:34 pm

Dan was interviewed yesterday and you can tell how surprised / relieved / delighted he is with the call-up. He'll know how close he came to missing out and he'll be determined to prove Gatland made the right decision.

I was hoping I'd never have to recall the game at Ravenhill...

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Post by Comfort Wed 01 May 2013, 2:38 pm

lostinwales wrote:I was a Robshaw sceptic. I am not anymore. He does an amazing amount of work.

If Fraser and Kvesic can prove themselves better players then they will be very special.

I like Robshaw, I just havent seen him really make his mark on a game with a match defining/turning moment. Sure hes consistent and usually tops the stats for this and that, but I've never seen him really making an impact at test level.

I think thats why Lydiate/croft have been picked ahead of him, Lydiate is a monster tackler with great speed off the line, he may not make as many as robshaw, but the tackles he does make are very, very effective and put his team on the frontfoot in defense. Croft I'm assuming was picked as he's a flanker with the x-factor with ball in hand (or a confused winger, depending on which side of the fence you sit on I guess) with pace to burn and a genuine lineout threat. Not to mention he didn't do too badly last time he was with the Lions.

I actually think Kvesic is the answer for you guys at 7. I think he can excel at leicester and in the near future you'll be looking at a backrow of 6. Wood 7. Kvesic 8. Morgan. Thats a whole lot scarier than when robshaws in the middle to me, workrate aside I just dont see what all the fuss is about when he leads england...

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Post by lostinwales Wed 01 May 2013, 2:52 pm

I'd also add that a lot of the things said about Robshaw are arguably the same things that can be said of Faletau. He also is very good at the things he does, but I'd also say he can be somewhat anonymous.

Actually no.8 choices dont inspire me at all. Heaslip of old was a mighty player who did everything. The Heaslip that was present in the 6N wasnt great at all. Contrast against Beattie who is on form and very abrasive, and Morgan who, 'while he may not last the whole game' will do more damage ball in hand in 50 minutes than any of the alternatives in 80.

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Post by Comfort Wed 01 May 2013, 3:22 pm

Lostin, completely agree with all of that.

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Post by The Bachelor Wed 01 May 2013, 3:42 pm

I don't know why people are shocked that Best wasn't picked - it's now pretty clear who was holding the ladder while Gatts was cleaning his windows.

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Post by Guest Wed 01 May 2013, 10:03 pm

So much gash being mentioned on this thread i think i should gash off!

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Post by 100%beefy Wed 01 May 2013, 10:09 pm

Robshaw failed at the last hurdle and his plight is reflected by the make up of the tour. Had England lived up to the 6 Nation shype (again) and not been swept away on the big occassion then we would have seen many more English players in the squad and Robshaw would have even been in contention for the Capt spot....but they flopped and to add insult to injury Robshaw was one of a large cadre of talented back row players however his attributes - being good a the basics - just don't make him stand out from his peers - Croft, Lydiate, Warbs, Tipuric, SOB all have an X factor. He was unlucky to be in such fine company, i mean even Wood - who i rate above Robshaw - is not even getting a mention.

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Post by lostinwales Wed 01 May 2013, 10:15 pm

100%beefy wrote:Robshaw failed at the last hurdle and his plight is reflected by the make up of the tour. Had England lived up to the 6 Nation shype (again) and not been swept away on the big occassion then we would have seen many more English players in the squad and Robshaw would have even been in contention for the Capt spot....but they flopped and to add insult to injury Robshaw was one of a large cadre of talented back row players however his attributes - being good a the basics - just don't make him stand out from his peers - Croft, Lydiate, Warbs, Tipuric, SOB all have an X factor. He was unlucky to be in such fine company, i mean even Wood - who i rate above Robshaw - is not even getting a mention.

I am sorry but all this 'Its because England failed in the grand slam match therefore are rubbish and shouldnt be picked for the Lions' stuff is all BS - proof? Heaslip has been picked after the Italy game....

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Post by 100%beefy Wed 01 May 2013, 10:39 pm

lostinwales wrote:
100%beefy wrote:Robshaw failed at the last hurdle and his plight is reflected by the make up of the tour. Had England lived up to the 6 Nation shype (again) and not been swept away on the big occassion then we would have seen many more English players in the squad and Robshaw would have even been in contention for the Capt spot....but they flopped and to add insult to injury Robshaw was one of a large cadre of talented back row players however his attributes - being good a the basics - just don't make him stand out from his peers - Croft, Lydiate, Warbs, Tipuric, SOB all have an X factor. He was unlucky to be in such fine company, i mean even Wood - who i rate above Robshaw - is not even getting a mention.

I am sorry but all this 'Its because England failed in the grand slam match therefore are rubbish and shouldnt be picked for the Lions' stuff is all BS - proof? Heaslip has been picked after the Italy game....

That game changed everything...but okay assume you are right, if eng won the GS do you think robshaw and others would have been in contention?

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Post by Cadair Idris Wed 01 May 2013, 10:42 pm

Agree with the comments above. Robshaw, Wood and Brown would all have been excellent Lions and are unlucky but every other flanker he's gone for offers something different. And none of those three have been helped by Lancaster and Johnson picking none of them at 6 this 6 nations - which is the realistic position they were all competing for in the Lions. So maybe blame their national coaches (Lawes, Haskell at 6??)

As for the comments about Lydiate - well I think he's a bit lucky to go after injury but I was at the grand slam win against France in 2012 and no doubt he basically won that grand Slam for us. Stats -number of tackles etc - don't always tell the whole story. He's proved his worth in some very big games for Wales.

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Robshaw - Page 2 Empty Re: Robshaw

Post by nlpnlp Thu 02 May 2013, 12:13 am

I am English - like Robshaw and think he has done a great job as captain - but don't quite understand all this "man love" coming his way. He palpably isn't in the best two no 7s available to the Lions, arguably if Armstrong was playing at home rather than France he wouldn't even be the best no 7 in England. I would also say he isn't in the top two no 6s in England - Wood and Croft are probably ahead of him, never mind Brown, O'Brien, etc.

What he is is probably the best player to cover 6, 7 and 8, as Ryan Jones is the best player to cover 5, 6 and 8. But Gatland hasn't gone for one of those utility forwards. He is also a decent skipper who leads from the front, but Gatland preferred Warburton and POC or BOD would offer more experience. Also after the disaster in Cardiff would Robshaw have the undying respect of the Welsh?

So yes it is tough on him, but who knows 4 years time might be his opportunity. On the other hand for Best and Brown the Lions dream, barring injuries, is probably over.

nlpnlp

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Robshaw - Page 2 Empty Re: Robshaw

Post by wanderingdragon Thu 02 May 2013, 7:09 am

Robshaw wasn't picked as he simply isn't good enough.

Warburton, Tipuric, O'Brien are all better 7s (as is Kelly brown)
Croft, Lydiate, (O'Brien again) are better 6s (as are Ryan Jones, Tom Wood, etc etc)
Robshaw isn't an 8

Robshaw has played well for England but when the pressure was really on against Wales in Cardiff he was found wanting, despite all his huff and puff.

I feel sorry for him because he was so hyped up by the English press to be something he isn't.

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