HC final 2013 - ASM Clermont Auvergne Vs RC Toulonnais - Teams announced etc

First topic message reminder :

I thought I would start a thread since teams are now announced. Appreciate this 100% french final might not draw loads of interest but it's still a game of rugby that will eventually decide who will be the next european top dog after years of Leinster dominance.

so here are the matchday 23 teams :

ASMCA :

15. Lee Byrne, 14. Sitiveni Sivivatu, 13. Aurélien Rougerie, 12. Wesley Fofana, 11. Napolioni Nalaga, 10. Brock James, 9. Morgan Parra, 1. Thomas Domingo, 2. Benjamin Kayser, 3. Davit Zirakashvili, 4. Jamie Cudmore, 5. Nathan Hines, 6. Julien Bonnaire, 7. Gerhard Vosloo, 8. Damien Chouly

subs 16. Ti'i Paulo, 17. Vincent Debaty, 18. Clément Ric, 19. Julien Pierre, 20. Julien Bardy, 21. Ludovic Radoslavjevic , 22. David Skrela, 23. Regan King

RCT :

15. Delon Armitage, 14. Rudi Wulf, 13. Mathieu Bastareaud, 12. Matt Giteau, 11. Alexis Palisson, 10. Jonny Wilkinson, 9. Sébastien Tillous-Borde, 1. Andrew Sheridan, 2. Sebastien Bruno, 3. Carl Hayman, 4. Bakkies Botha, 5. Nick Kennedy, 6. Danie Rossouw, 7. Juan Fernandez Lobbe, 8. Chris Masoe
subs : 16. Jean-Charles Orioli, 17. Gethin Jenkins, 18. Davit Kubriashvili, 19. Joe van Niekerk, 20. Steffon Armitage, 21. Maxime Mermoz, 22. Frederic Michalak, 23. Jocelino Suta,

It seems that there is finally very little injuries and should the weather be nice, we shall hope for a good game of rugby.
Some interesting matchups and questions:
- Will Domingo manage to deal with Hayman power (pushed by Botha and Rossow!!).
- Who will shine between Fernandez-Lobbe and Bonnaire who are quite similar players in terms of class and ability (very smooth line out operators, not very powerful but very efficient in the rucks)
- Who between Fofana and Giteau will have the most space to express themselves?
- Will Wilkinson score more than 20 points?
- Can Palisson outpace sivivatu?
- Will Cudmore get the 1st yellow card?

Well brad thorne has all of that as well (except the curry cups)

Initially, was supporting Toulon due to their English contingent and the fact that I enjoy backing the underdog as a neutral. But in the closing stages was willing Clermont to get that 3 pointer as it was such a shame that they didnt win the tournament as they were undoubtedly the best team.

However still cant begrudge Toulon of the victory, the likes of Lobbe and Basteraud were immense and its always great to see Wilko get some silverware after such a long time. And the jibes at Toulon buying the trophy are a tad untoward as Clermont havent exactly been shy with their cheque book. Toulon have undeniably worked hard and defended extremely well with great intensity for this trophy and should be appreciated for that.

Biltong wrote:

wales606 wrote:

MMaaxx wrote:Well done Danie and Bakkis. Most successful rugby players ever

RWC
Multiple Currie Cups, Super 15 and Tri Nations
British and Irish Lions Series win
And HC

Legends!

Brad Thorn did it first

yeah, but Danie and Bakkies did it better.

Brad has state of origin, NRL, RL WC and Sushi federation winners medals too!

George Carlin wrote:Feel sorry for Rougerie - he's such a gent.

He's a great player, but I lost a huge amount of respect for Rougerie when he tried to sue Phil Greening for €90k for lost earnings because he was accidentally injured by a hand off whilst trying to tackle him in pre-season game.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/nov/23/rugbyunion.comment

rodders wrote:

Biltong wrote:

wales606 wrote:

MMaaxx wrote:Well done Danie and Bakkis. Most successful rugby players ever

RWC
Multiple Currie Cups, Super 15 and Tri Nations
British and Irish Lions Series win
And HC

Legends!

Brad Thorn did it first

yeah, but Danie and Bakkies did it better.

Brad has state of origin, NRL, RL WC and Sushi federation winners medals too!

We're only talking rugby union, south africans don't play rugby league.

Any French players celebrating tonight???

[quote="markb"]

George Carlin wrote:Feel sorry for Rougerie - he's such a gent.

Gentlemen don't gouge.

Proof again that there is more to rugby than just what makes the highlight reels. Player steel, commitment and team spirit are the substance of what the sport is really made of, and Toulon edged that battle when it counted today.

Many of us may have wanted Clermont to triumph, but from a decent defecit Toulon showed the right fighting spirit and nerve to surmount the best team in Europe. That's beyond a group of mercenaries without commitment to each other, the club and the fans that they are so often labelled.

[quote="GLove39"]

markb wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Feel sorry for Rougerie - he's such a gent.

Gentlemen don't gouge.

Unless thats what she's up for

What a bunch of wasters losing to Toulon...

Blimey, that was a ferocious encounter. Well done Toulon.

Great for Jonny to get get the big one in the twilight of his career.

Enjoyable game. Two different styles. Nice for Delon to get the try too.

Clermont may play the more attractive rugby but they couldn't quite step up when it mattered

DOD wrote:What a bunch of wasters losing to Toulon...

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:Blimey, that was a ferocious encounter. Well done Toulon.

Great for Jonny to get get the big one in the twilight of his career.

Enjoyable game. Two different styles. Nice for Delon to get the try too.

Clermont may play the more attractive rugby but they couldn't quite step up when it mattered

Ye I was really happy the inferior Cleremont didn't have the quality, and Delon deserved the try for all his hard work and gracious attitude!

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:Blimey, that was a ferocious encounter. Well done Toulon.

Great for Jonny to get get the big one in the twilight of his career.

Enjoyable game. Two different styles. Nice for Delon to get the try too.

Clermont may play the more attractive rugby but they couldn't quite step up when it mattered

Ye I was really happy the inferior Cleremont didn't have the quality, and Delon deserved the try for all his hard work and gracious attitude!

Agreed, Delon isn't the most likeable chap

Regardless of 'quality' or 'playing style' no side 'deserves' to win. Clermont have been the best side in the cup all season but Toulon pipped them. No points awarded for style.

I quite like Toulon. Maybe it's because no one else does

fi

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:Blimey, that was a ferocious encounter. Well done Toulon.

Great for Jonny to get get the big one in the twilight of his career.

Enjoyable game. Two different styles. Nice for Delon to get the try too.

Clermont may play the more attractive rugby but they couldn't quite step up when it mattered

Ye I was really happy the inferior Cleremont didn't have the quality, and Delon deserved the try for all his hard work and gracious attitude!

Agreed, Delon isn't the most likeable chap

Regardless of 'quality' or 'playing style' no side 'deserves' to win. Clermont have been the best side in the cup all season but Toulon pipped them. No points awarded for style.

I quite like Toulon. Maybe it's because no one else does

Find myself agreeing with you actually, Toulon have to be commnded for the comeback and win, and the spirit they showed. Not a fan of any of these big spending French clubs though!!

Delon is a bit of a boobie, I saw a winger wave at a lock before at youth level, he jogged in under the posts and was rightly flattened, and had to go to the hospital for a broken cheek bone and ankle... if only!

At least the Blues got knocked out of the HC by the eventual winners...normally it is just the finalists (Leicester, Northampton, Toulouse)

thebluesmancometh wrote:Delon is a bit of a boobie, I saw a winger wave at a lock before at youth level, he jogged in under the posts and was rightly flattened, and had to go to the hospital for a broken cheek bone and ankle... if only!

I'm not sure wishing harm on a player (regardless of their rather unsporting attitude) is really the way to go.

Will either of those two be back next year to try again in another final?

Clermont will feel totally drained by the number of attempts and the number of fails. Is there really enough enthusiasm to go hard at it again? Players will be divided now about what was right and what was wrong. Unity of purpose will be tested as they remember another deeply disappointing end to a promising crusade.

Toulon... well, a question mark as many seems to think they don't even deserve their first title!

Interesting Last year ahead for HC

SecretFly wrote:Will either of those two be back next year to try again in another final?

Clermont will feel totally drained by the number of attempts and the number of fails. Is there really enough enthusiasm to go hard at it again? Players will be divided now about what was right and what was wrong. Unity of purpose will be tested as they remember another deeply disappointing end to a promising crusade.

Toulon... well, a question mark as many seems to think they don't even deserve their first title!

Interesting Last year ahead for HC

One win in 102 years says it all...bunch of wasters

Well I said they might be 'overrated' (that terribly contentious word) a week or so ago and...well, almost got my mouthy head handed to me on a bloody platter. People are very sensitive about the promise of Clermont even though the record betrays something much more fragile

SecretFly wrote:Well I said they might be 'overrated' (that terribly contentious word) a week or so ago and...well, almost got my mouthy head handed to me on a bloody platter. People are very sensitive about the promise of Clermont even though the record betrays something much more fragile

Aye theyre the sensitive ones

thebluesmancometh wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Well I said they might be 'overrated' (that terribly contentious word) a week or so ago and...well, almost got my mouthy head handed to me on a bloody platter. People are very sensitive about the promise of Clermont even though the record betrays something much more fragile

Aye theyre the sensitive ones

they need Ruby to do a few couch sessions with them.

But I'm too hard on them. I do feel sorry for their fans. Being brought up the hill often and then that sickly drop. I hope the Dubs cheer them up a little at least tonight and they can remember something to smile a little about.

SecretFly wrote:Well I said they might be 'overrated' (that terribly contentious word) a week or so ago and...well, almost got my mouthy head handed to me on a bloody platter. People are very sensitive about the promise of Clermont even though the record betrays something much more fragile

I concur fly old bean.

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Delon is a bit of a boobie, I saw a winger wave at a lock before at youth level, he jogged in under the posts and was rightly flattened, and had to go to the hospital for a broken cheek bone and ankle... if only!

I'm not sure wishing harm on a player (regardless of their rather unsporting attitude) is really the way to go.

Brian Moore seem to think slightly differently :

Brian Moore (@brianmoore666) tweeted at 7:29pm - 18 May 13:

Heineken - if a player did to me what Armitage has just done I'd have to chin him after the touchdown. (https://twitter.com/brianmoore666/status/335809337689784321)

From my perspective it is a sad day.

I don't begrudge wilkinson this at all. He has clearly put his heart and soul into his club rugby over the last 5 years or so. Fair play to him.

I am gutted to see a smug barsteward like Armitage win anything though. Frak off to football I say. It's a sad time when the HEC is bought but that's the reality here and even if Clermont had won at least they had the base of a French team.

I'm not against foreigners in the NH game (lord knows ulster have their fair share) but there should be a base of indigenous talent. There isn't with Toulon. Big credit to fernandez-lobbe though. A man possessed and the person who deserved to go over for that touchdown and not Armitage

Toulon got an easy draw ( Cardiff Blues, Sale Sharks, Montpellier), they scored 1 try in their last three games and were the first side to win something after creating so little.

A coming force they ain't!

Still no team has won every game to win the HC

Compared to the fact that no team has ever lost a game and gone on to win a World Cup.

Toulon won and well done - though how exactly they won, I have no idea. I'd say Armitage has cemented his place as the most disrespected man in NH rugby - and single handedly soured his team's victory. Can't imagine there was a neutral anywhere who wanted Toulon to win after his try "celebration". What a colossal chopper that man is.

Does anyone know the salary budget for each of the two teams?

wales606 wrote:At least the Blues got knocked out of the HC by the eventual winners...normally it is just the finalists (Leicester, Northampton, Toulouse)

Losing to Sales Sharks & Montpelier didn't help your cause either

doctor_grey wrote:Does anyone know the salary budget for each of the two teams?

Toulon is about £13 million I believe. Ie it was reported as 3x English cap.

doctor_grey wrote:Does anyone know the salary budget for each of the two teams?

€9.5 million for 2012–13, rising to €10 million for 2013–14.

The net effect will be greater too because they've decided to keep youth players off-balance sheet now too, unless their salaries are more than €50k. Guys like Gaël Fickou are classed as 'youth', believe it or not. No wonder Ioane, Mitchell, Steyn, Sexton, Gray and Roberts are all heading across the channel.

Kingshu wrote:Agreed - I'm with Clermont

Part of it, would be if Toulon won, BBC would have all over it, Jonny Wilkinson's Toulon win H-cup, and then be followed by Jonny Wilkinson this and Jonny Wilkinson that.

(nothing against Jonny Wilkinson, but the BBC and others do go over the top in thier coverage of him, they are moving away from covering clubs to covering players)

Also Clermot have been knocking on the H-cup door for years and deserve to pick it up.

Auntie says

Wilkinson's Toulon win Heineken Cup

Jonny Wilkinson inspires Toulon to come from behind and secure the Heineken Cup with a 16-15 win over Clermont Auvergne.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/

You're not wrong Kh,

Wilko - Great player, top sportsman and well deserving HEC winner.

Armitage - total douchebag.

The Heino is a fabulous tournament, world rugby will be a poorer place without this competition.

I'll see your "Jonny Wilkinson's Toulon" and raise you a "Conor O'Shea's Harlequins"

At least Jonny Is a class act unlike his team mate and at least he does win games on the pitch unlike our Conor.

Jonny can't help what the English media do and is probably a bit embarrassed by it.

To be fair, If Rog had won the WC for Ireland with a dropper our media would still be calling him "world cup winner Rog" too.

Nobody can knock Toulon.
The Ospreys bought enough talent and kept chocking at the quarters.
Saracens did the same and have been marginally better.

George Carlin wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Does anyone know the salary budget for each of the two teams?

€9.5 million for 2012–13, rising to €10 million for 2013–14.

The net effect will be greater too because they've decided to keep youth players off-balance sheet now too, unless their salaries are more than €50k. Guys like Gaël Fickou are classed as 'youth', believe it or not. No wonder Ioane, Mitchell, Steyn, Sexton, Gray and Roberts are all heading across the channel.

BUt what about Clermont? I heard their expenditure is larger than Toulon's. But I can't remember the exact number or where it came from.

I actually think Wilkinson is a very influential figure at Toulon and Im very glad for him to be a Heineken Cup champion.

Furious to that that slimy ball of poo Armitage has a winners medal though.

Have to say though it was a cracking match no matter who you supported.

red_stag wrote:I actually think Wilkinson is a very influential figure at Toulon and Im very glad for him to be a Heineken Cup champion.

Furious to that that slimy ball of poo Armitage has a winners medal though.

Have to say though it was a cracking match no matter who you supported.

Only way to stop what Armitage did in the game is to bring in an "ungentlemanly conduct" rule and just blow the whistle and give a penalty to the opposition.........................

John Cregan wrote:

red_stag wrote:I actually think Wilkinson is a very influential figure at Toulon and Im very glad for him to be a Heineken Cup champion.

Furious to that that slimy ball of poo Armitage has a winners medal though.

Have to say though it was a cracking match no matter who you supported.

Only way to stop what Armitage did in the game is to bring in an "ungentlemanly conduct" rule and just blow the whistle and give a penalty to the opposition.........................

Nothing to stop a referee doing that under current laws. Its a penalty to show "unsportsmanlike behavior".

However would Rolland have been a hero or villain to disallow the try.

John Cregan wrote:Only way to stop what Armitage did in the game is to bring in an "ungentlemanly conduct" rule and just blow the whistle and give a penalty to the opposition.........................

Just think how ironic it would be for Steve Walsh to say:
"Toulon, number 15, 10 minutes in the bin for being a douche".
All other players on both teams would simply stare, thinking "He's a douche, mate????"

Not a classic, but enjoyable. No real issue with the mercenaries winning it. Pleased for Wilkinson, consumate professional and one of the greats of the game - a shame that the oik playing 15 hasn't managed to learn something from his team mate.

I was lucky enough to have a great seat on the half way line and high up in the East Stand, and you get a different perception to what the cameras show, or don't show. There are several points about why Clermont managed to lose the game.

They had two clear overaps on the right in the first half. All they had to do was fix the last defender and ship the ball to the wing. Both times there was no covering defender, but the wide player came inside and was swallowed up by the Toulon defence.

Clermont also ran some excellent decoy lines and released players into space. Time after time they took the wrong option and were turned over at the ruck.

After they went behind Clermont tried the Toulon 'bash it up' method to try and win a penalty or fashion a drop goal chance. Virtually every time they got into a promising position they knocked the ball on in the tackle or were pinged for going off their feet. A pro rugby player should have more respect for possession of the ball, but credit to Toulon for their resolute defence.

So, poor decision making and poor technique had a lot to do with Clermont losing imo.

Hound of Harrow wrote:I was lucky enough to have a great seat on the half way line and high up in the East Stand, and you get a different perception to what the cameras show, or don't show. There are several points about why Clermont managed to lose the game.

They had two clear overaps on the right in the first half. All they had to do was fix the last defender and ship the ball to the wing. Both times there was no covering defender, but the wide player came inside and was swallowed up by the Toulon defence.

Clermont also ran some excellent decoy lines and released players into space. Time after time they took the wrong option and were turned over at the ruck.

After they went behind Clermont tried the Toulon 'bash it up' method to try and win a penalty or fashion a drop goal chance. Virtually every time they got into a promising position they knocked the ball on in the tackle or were pinged for going off their feet. A pro rugby player should have more respect for possession of the ball, but credit to Toulon for their resolute defence.

So, poor decision making and poor technique had a lot to do with Clermont losing imo.

Agree. Clermont are often lauded as this magnificent team. But the standard of their passing game is really way below that of the top teams in the other leagues. They finally overcame Leinster by beating the bejaysus out of an injury riddled side up front. You could see the panic in their eyes against a fairly limited Munster at home. They're good, but can't be ranked as one of the tournaments greats alongside Munster, Leinster Toulouse, Wasps, Tigers.

That's because you have named every team that have won the HC more than once.

By definition Clermont are not in that class having 0 HCs to their name.

Are Clermont any less of "mercenaries" than Toulon. They have Lee Byrne, Nalaga, Sivivatu, Nathan Hines, Cudmore, Brock James, Regan King, Benson Stanley, Gerard Vosloo etc.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

wales606 wrote:At least the Blues got knocked out of the HC by the eventual winners...normally it is just the finalists (Leicester, Northampton, Toulouse)

Losing to Sales Sharks & Montpelier didn't help your cause either

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Congrats Toulon on their purchased trophy

Clever passing never been Clermont strengh. Dont remember being leicester and munster ones as well in their heydays. Most teams play in a different wa nowadays. The main goal being efficiency. ASM way is power play with one/two passes to break the advantage line at pace with some offloading after. They need strong backrowers and skillfull backs nonetheless. You will notice that this is how france tries to play most of the time with relative success. Am surprised some people here ar discovering that now!

That's true whocares. But they also lack something all the best champions have. The ability to grab control of a game and play down the clock. I wonder does the lack of control come from Brock James? Will they ever win it with him at 10?