HC final 2013 - ASM Clermont Auvergne Vs RC Toulonnais - Teams announced etc

First topic message reminder :

I thought I would start a thread since teams are now announced. Appreciate this 100% french final might not draw loads of interest but it's still a game of rugby that will eventually decide who will be the next european top dog after years of Leinster dominance.

so here are the matchday 23 teams :

ASMCA :

15. Lee Byrne, 14. Sitiveni Sivivatu, 13. Aurélien Rougerie, 12. Wesley Fofana, 11. Napolioni Nalaga, 10. Brock James, 9. Morgan Parra, 1. Thomas Domingo, 2. Benjamin Kayser, 3. Davit Zirakashvili, 4. Jamie Cudmore, 5. Nathan Hines, 6. Julien Bonnaire, 7. Gerhard Vosloo, 8. Damien Chouly

subs 16. Ti'i Paulo, 17. Vincent Debaty, 18. Clément Ric, 19. Julien Pierre, 20. Julien Bardy, 21. Ludovic Radoslavjevic , 22. David Skrela, 23. Regan King

RCT :

15. Delon Armitage, 14. Rudi Wulf, 13. Mathieu Bastareaud, 12. Matt Giteau, 11. Alexis Palisson, 10. Jonny Wilkinson, 9. Sébastien Tillous-Borde, 1. Andrew Sheridan, 2. Sebastien Bruno, 3. Carl Hayman, 4. Bakkies Botha, 5. Nick Kennedy, 6. Danie Rossouw, 7. Juan Fernandez Lobbe, 8. Chris Masoe
subs : 16. Jean-Charles Orioli, 17. Gethin Jenkins, 18. Davit Kubriashvili, 19. Joe van Niekerk, 20. Steffon Armitage, 21. Maxime Mermoz, 22. Frederic Michalak, 23. Jocelino Suta,

It seems that there is finally very little injuries and should the weather be nice, we shall hope for a good game of rugby.
Some interesting matchups and questions:
- Will Domingo manage to deal with Hayman power (pushed by Botha and Rossow!!).
- Who will shine between Fernandez-Lobbe and Bonnaire who are quite similar players in terms of class and ability (very smooth line out operators, not very powerful but very efficient in the rucks)
- Who between Fofana and Giteau will have the most space to express themselves?
- Will Wilkinson score more than 20 points?
- Can Palisson outpace sivivatu?
- Will Cudmore get the 1st yellow card?

Think it's pretty poor from those slating Toulon. Yes the club's pumped up with money and we may not want the game to go the same way as football, but you don't win an HC without putting your body on the line and gritting it out.

By all accounts Toulon are a bunch of very professional guys with a real camaraderie. Even the owner is a working class guy 'done good' and the fans are also pretty blue-collar. I'd far rather that than a bunch of hooray-Henrys winning.

Feckless Rogue wrote:That's true whocares. But they also lack something all the best champions have. The ability to grab control of a game and play down the clock. I wonder does the lack of control come from Brock James? Will they ever win it with him at 10?

Yes fair point. They should have a plan B to close the game. Clermont lack the little luck at the right time that all true champions have I guess. Dont think they are weak mentally, they fought till the end and didnt take their chances while Toulon took their only try scoring opportunity and only managed to conceed 8 penalties. James has other qualities while Skrela had no impact whatsoever. Next year they will have this kiwi as well (mike delany) who seems like a solid player.

Hood83 wrote:Think it's pretty poor from those slating Toulon. Yes the club's pumped up with money and we may not want the game to go the same way as football, but you don't win an HC without putting your body on the line and gritting it out.

By all accounts Toulon are a bunch of very professional guys with a real camaraderie. Even the owner is a working class guy 'done good' and the fans are also pretty blue-collar. I'd far rather that than a bunch of hooray-Henrys winning.

Working Class???!!!! Working class? We'll have none of that bad language around rugby boards, Hood! And to cap the insults you add in 'blue-collar' supporters. Next you'll be wanting rugger lads to get paid to play. Wot rot.

Hines should come 'home' to the blue country.... and help us and him to another European crown.......

No surprise Sir Wilco got ERC playa of the tear

SecretFly wrote:Hines should come 'home' to the blue country.... and help us and him to another European crown.......

He should be going "home" this summer to Australia with the Lions

Knowsit17 wrote:Congrats Toulon on their purchased trophy

I'm curious as to whether we'd have had this comment if Clermont had won?

Top 14 budgets for 2012-2013:
Toulouse €34.9m
Clermont €25.5m
Stade Francais €22.8m
Toulon €21.8m
Racing Metro €21.7m


http://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/top-14/2012-2013/les-budgets-a-la-hausse_sto3384977/story.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012%E2%80%9313_Top_14_season#Team_information

Clermont tried to buy the HC, but Toulon's ragtag band of old timers and discarded internationals dug deep, showing the sort of player and team commitment it takes to mount a comeback from a couple of scores down and claim Europe's top rugby prize.

red_stag wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Hines should come 'home' to the blue country.... and help us and him to another European crown.......

He should be going "home" this summer to Australia with the Lions

+1,000

Kicked 17 out of 17 in the HC KO stages. That's the sign of a true champion.

Hilarious that Jiffy calls the European player of the year a hasbeen.... Not as good as before, perhaps... But then again who wasn't better as a 25yr old compared to 10 years later???

One of the ultimate clutch players and one Gatland must surely wish was in his touring squad... He needs him.

Toulon are probably the most horrible winners of the HC trophy in years. They hardly played any rugby yet managed to sneak it through a bit of a freak try from the typically annoying Armitage. The truth is for the whole game they never looked like scoring a try at all while Clermont regularly threatened the line.

Thanks to Toulon it was a very forgettable match.

fa0019 wrote:Kicked 17 out of 17 in the HC KO stages. That's the sign of a true champion.

Hilarious that Jiffy calls the European player of the year a hasbeen.... Not as good as before, perhaps... But then again who wasn't better as a 25yr old compared to 10 years later???

One of the ultimate clutch players and one Gatland must surely wish was in his touring squad... He needs him.

Wilko kicked well and mad esome good tackles. However, he offered absolutly nothing else. Very limited player. I'd prefer Biggar or Madigan maybe even Flood and Hook.

I thought it was a good game. I love watching ferocious forward battles and great defence.

Toulon seem to get a lot of grief from some, but it was up to Clermont to find a way of beating them. They couldn't.

Well done Delon's Toulon

Hood83 wrote:Think it's pretty poor from those slating Toulon. Yes the club's pumped up with money and we may not want the game to go the same way as football, but you don't win an HC without putting your body on the line and gritting it out.

By all accounts Toulon are a bunch of very professional guys with a real camaraderie. Even the owner is a working class guy 'done good' and the fans are also pretty blue-collar. I'd far rather that than a bunch of hooray-Henrys winning.

I assume you were upset when Quins won the league last year?!

I agree with your first line though, money only gets you so far, from the defensive effort, clearly the Toulon players are not just there for the money. I'm actually pleased they won, the whole rugby seemed to have assumed that Clermont would win and had painted Toulon as nasty rich boys just out to spoil the coronation.

Guns....no it was not.

Clermont most certainly deserved to win and shoud have done so and for that they have only themselves to blame. But the 2nd half was great to watch and very exciting. Toulon did a Scotland (as in V Ireland this year) and won through sheer heroic defensive effort. Not much creative or offensive going on, but for sheer determination and will power they deserve praise. Clermont have a bigger player budget then Toulon and have bought just as many players, but this time Toulon came out on top. On another day it would probably be different.

The Toulon players clearly have great team spirit and really fought hard for each other - well done!

GunsGerms wrote:Toulon are probably the most horrible winners of the HC trophy in years. They hardly played any rugby yet managed to sneak it through a bit of a freak try from the typically annoying Armitage. The truth is for the whole game they never looked like scoring a try at all while Clermont regularly threatened the line.

Thanks to Toulon it was a very forgettable match.

Thats a bit unfair.

I dont think they'll care one iota. Munster played a rubbish brand of rugby in 2008 (especially against Scarlets and Wasps in the pool stages, Saracens in the semis and Toulouse in the final) but that didnt matter.

I dont like Armitage but Toulon played as well as any champion who has gone before them and beat Sale Sharks, Cardiff Blues, Montpellier, Leicester Tigers, Saracens and Clermont Auvergne along the way.

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:I thought it was a good game. I love watching ferocious forward battles and great defence.

Toulon seem to get a lot of grief from some, but it was up to Clermont to find a way of beating them. They couldn't.

Well done Delon's Toulon

There were a crazy amount of mistakes. Rarely did either team go through more than a few phases and when they did it was usually Clermont. Toulon kicked all of their posession away and parked the bus in defense.

Clermont threw it away but Toulon were quite fortunate to get a freak try when they didnt look like scoring all game. All in all it was a urine poor match.

GunsGerms wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:I thought it was a good game. I love watching ferocious forward battles and great defence.

Toulon seem to get a lot of grief from some, but it was up to Clermont to find a way of beating them. They couldn't.

Well done Delon's Toulon

There were a crazy amount of mistakes. Rarely did either team go through more than a few phases and when they did it was usually Clermont. Toulon kicked all of their posession away and parked the bus in defense.

Clermont threw it away but Toulon were quite fortunate to get a freak try when they didnt look like scoring all game. All in all it was a urine poor match.

I guess you only like watching one style of play. Rugby must be disappointing for you a lot of the time. The great thing about the sport is the variety of styles and match-ups. Still, each to their own.

I was trully devestated for Clermont. They were playing much better rugby. Toulon's style of play is just like drowning in wall paper paste.

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:I guess you only like watching one style of play. Rugby must be disappointing for you a lot of the time. The great thing about the sport is the variety of styles and match-ups. Still, each to their own.

I dont like matches that are blown up after every phase for a penalty or a knock on. It was a very fragmented game. Toulon were absolutly horrible to make things worse. Wilko kicked away all Toulon's posession. Worst rugby in a HC final in years.

Credit to Clermont for some nice play.

I thought it was a million times more enjoyable than last years final. Would you have liked last years final so much if you weren't a Leinster fan?

red_stag wrote:I thought it was a million times more enjoyable than last years final. Would you have liked last years final so much if you weren't a Leinster fan?

One sided finals are never great but at least both sides were willing to play a bit of rugby. Last year wasnt a good final either but was more entertaining than this year and there were much less mistakes. Toulon are an absolutly horrible side and hope they get knocked out in the group stages next year.

Only Munster fans posess the ability to draw reference to Leinster or Munster in every thread.

red_stag wrote:I thought it was a million times more enjoyable than last years final. Would you have liked last years final so much if you weren't a Leinster fan?

I'm an Ulster fan and thought last years final was fantastic. For 66 mins last years final was closer than this one. The difference this year is that Clermont lacked the ruthlessness and big game experience that Leinster had last year. They should have put Toulon away but allowed them back in through a lack of game managment.

The pace of this game was a lot slower this year, which isn't surprising as there were a lot of big men and old men out there.

The quality this year wasn't as high as last year generally.

gelodge wrote:Top 14 budgets for 2012-2013:
Toulouse €34.9m
Clermont €25.5m
Stade Francais €22.8m
Toulon €21.8m
Racing Metro €21.7m

Proof that you don't always get what you pay for! Stade spend a lot more than Leinster each year and the skill levels are so, so far behind in every way...

rodders wrote:

red_stag wrote:I thought it was a million times more enjoyable than last years final. Would you have liked last years final so much if you weren't a Leinster fan?

I'm an Ulster fan and thought last years final was fantastic. For 66 mins last years final was closer than this one. The difference this year is that Clermont lacked the ruthlessness and big game experience that Leinster had last year. They should have put Toulon away but allowed them back in through a lack of game managment.

Yeah I don't get the allegations that last years final wasn't far, far better. Both teams played attacking, open rugby for 80 mins last year. It was an excellent game even if the result was absolutely heartbreaking.

GunsGerms wrote:

red_stag wrote:I thought it was a million times more enjoyable than last years final. Would you have liked last years final so much if you weren't a Leinster fan?

One sided finals are never great but at least both sides were willing to play a bit of rugby. Last year wasnt a good final either but was more entertaining than this year and there were much less mistakes. Toulon are an absolutly horrible side and hope they get knocked out in the group stages next year.

Only Munster fans posess the ability to draw reference to Leinster or Munster in every thread.

Its sad that provincial bickering has got to the stage where you cannot mention anyone. Very pathetic comment to be honest.

I didnt enjoy last years final. Other people didnt enjoy the final in 2008 that Munster won. Not too many people enjoyed the 2010 Toulouse v Biarritz final.

The Leinster v Northampton game was an unrivaled classic but finals are rarely open games.

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:

red_stag wrote:I thought it was a million times more enjoyable than last years final. Would you have liked last years final so much if you weren't a Leinster fan?

I'm an Ulster fan and thought last years final was fantastic. For 66 mins last years final was closer than this one. The difference this year is that Clermont lacked the ruthlessness and big game experience that Leinster had last year. They should have put Toulon away but allowed them back in through a lack of game managment.

Yeah I don't get the allegations that last years final wasn't far, far better. Both teams played attacking, open rugby for 80 mins last year. It was an excellent game even if the result was absolutely heartbreaking.

I also don't accept that it was one sided. No doubt the better side won but it was a one score game until the last 15 minutes or so and a late flurry by Leinster meant the scoreline didn't really reflect the game.

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:

red_stag wrote:I thought it was a million times more enjoyable than last years final. Would you have liked last years final so much if you weren't a Leinster fan?

I'm an Ulster fan and thought last years final was fantastic. For 66 mins last years final was closer than this one. The difference this year is that Clermont lacked the ruthlessness and big game experience that Leinster had last year. They should have put Toulon away but allowed them back in through a lack of game managment.

Yeah I don't get the allegations that last years final wasn't far, far better. Both teams played attacking, open rugby for 80 mins last year. It was an excellent game even if the result was absolutely heartbreaking.

I simply prefer tight attritional encounters. Yes the first hour of last years game was good but there are 80 minutes in a match and it fizzled out completely at the end.

This year saw a physical arm wrestle in the first half and things opened up in the second half. Mistakes don't worry me. There was lots of near misses and things were tight right the way through. Blocked drop goals, near chances going to TMO, two tries and Clermont still on the attack going for the win in the dying plays of the game.

I thought it had something for everyone and I really dont see how people could think it was so so poor.

The score was 3-3 at half time. It was a dire match. A lot like Ireland v Scotland in the 6N. Clermont did a lot to make it a cracker but ultimately Toulon got their way and suffocated the life out of the game and won it with kicks and a freak try. Poor match.

I like Clermont a lot but this was as bad as I have seen them play for some time. Both teams were very disorganised and there were too many poor decisions and errors.

Even Morgan Parra who is usually quite a good decision maker made some very poor calls with bad kicks ahead.

I would disagree it was a dire match. Plenty of drama in it. Definately better than I thought it would be.

Biltong wrote:

wales606 wrote:

MMaaxx wrote:Well done Danie and Bakkis. Most successful rugby players ever

RWC
Multiple Currie Cups, Super 15 and Tri Nations
British and Irish Lions Series win
And HC

Legends!

Brad Thorn did it first

yeah, but Danie and Bakkies did it better.

Technically Rod Kafer did it 1st.
Doug Howlett & Matt Giteau are the other 2 players with Super rugby & Heino medals, but no RWC.

Am I missing something here? Last years final was closer than this years? Jebus the red hand is getting in the way completely here. Last years was the most one sided final ever....it wasn't even a contest...

red_stag wrote:

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:

red_stag wrote:I thought it was a million times more enjoyable than last years final. Would you have liked last years final so much if you weren't a Leinster fan?

I'm an Ulster fan and thought last years final was fantastic. For 66 mins last years final was closer than this one. The difference this year is that Clermont lacked the ruthlessness and big game experience that Leinster had last year. They should have put Toulon away but allowed them back in through a lack of game managment.

Yeah I don't get the allegations that last years final wasn't far, far better. Both teams played attacking, open rugby for 80 mins last year. It was an excellent game even if the result was absolutely heartbreaking.

I simply prefer tight attritional encounters. Yes the first hour of last years game was good but there are 80 minutes in a match and it fizzled out completely at the end.

This year saw a physical arm wrestle in the first half and things opened up in the second half. Mistakes don't worry me. There was lots of near misses and things were tight right the way through. Blocked drop goals, near chances going to TMO, two tries and Clermont still on the attack going for the win in the dying plays of the game.

I thought it had something for everyone and I really dont see how people could think it was so so poor.

I thoroughly enjoyed it- last years game was of higher quality in terms of the rugby played but this years was entertaining in other ways. Certainly as an Ulster fan 'entertaining' is not a word I can apply to last years final.

I dont think anyone said last years was closer DOD?...

DOD wrote:Am I missing something here? Last years final was closer than this years? Jebus the red hand is getting in the way completely here. Last years was the most one sided final ever....it wasn't even a contest...

The stats don't lie DOD.

Is it the beginning of the end for club rugby? It would seem so, you now can buy a competition.

Leinster likely to be the last real winner of the cup.

I thought as a neutral this was far better than last years final, the underdog soaking up the pressure and still winning is far more entertaining than a men against boys style smashing.

The Last Real Winner Cup.

I like that. - I want it! - I demand it Merkel!!!!!!

Make it now (with some of the money the unsecured bond holders still hold after the Fall) and give it to Leinster before Schmidt leaves next week.

Bathman_in_London wrote:I thought as a neutral this was far better than last years final, the underdog soaking up the pressure and still winning is far more entertaining than a men against boys style smashing.

How many English lads were involved Bathman? Who was the winning Captain? Neutral? You've invented a new definition for the word

rodders wrote:

DOD wrote:Am I missing something here? Last years final was closer than this years? Jebus the red hand is getting in the way completely here. Last years was the most one sided final ever....it wasn't even a contest...

The stats don't lie DOD.

Neither do the hips, according to a Colombian friend of mine.

SecretFly wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:I thought as a neutral this was far better than last years final, the underdog soaking up the pressure and still winning is far more entertaining than a men against boys style smashing.

How many English lads were involved Bathman? Who was the winning Captain? Neutral? You've invented a new definition for the word

Who scored the winning try?

George Carlin wrote:

rodders wrote:

DOD wrote:Am I missing something here? Last years final was closer than this years? Jebus the red hand is getting in the way completely here. Last years was the most one sided final ever....it wasn't even a contest...

The stats don't lie DOD.

Neither do the hips, according to a Colombian friend of mine.

I can guess the conversation you and your friend were having, George.

GunsGerms wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:I thought as a neutral this was far better than last years final, the underdog soaking up the pressure and still winning is far more entertaining than a men against boys style smashing.

How many English lads were involved Bathman? Who was the winning Captain? Neutral? You've invented a new definition for the word

Who scored the winning try?

A carribean born former France age group player?!

I was at the game the year before and while the atmosphere was great, it was pretty one sided. The only time I would have enjoyed a win like that would have been if the team in my user name was the victor. Which sadly seems pretty unlikely!

Bathman_in_London wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:I thought as a neutral this was far better than last years final, the underdog soaking up the pressure and still winning is far more entertaining than a men against boys style smashing.

How many English lads were involved Bathman? Who was the winning Captain? Neutral? You've invented a new definition for the word

Who scored the winning try?

A carribean born former France age group player?!

I was at the game the year before and while the atmosphere was great, it was pretty one sided. The only time I would have enjoyed a win like that would have been if the team in my user name was the victor. Which sadly seems pretty unlikely!

After being at the last 3 HEC finals, in order of enjoyment they'd rank (1) 2011, (2) 2013, (3) 2012

Those who were vehement before the match about what must happen and who must win didn't take enjoyment from the hard fought competition on offer, those who were less strictured recognised the game for what it was and did.

Preferences came down to who thought which side used most 'monwy' to get the title.

Clermont used more money to get to the final but Toulon used more to win it Clermont are therefore good guys with white hats, Toulon are the pantomime baddies - Oh no they're not!!!!!

SecretFly wrote:Preferences came down to who thought which side used most 'monwy' to get the title.

Is Welsh currency legal tender these days?