Revenge is a dish best served cold

Feeling a bit worse for wear today. The Crusaders beating the Blues at home is helping. But it was an incredible night last night and the celebrations were something to behold. Spanish people know how to have a good time.

I went to the final between Real Madrid and Atletico de Madrid for the Copa del Rey (The King's Cup), which is the equivalent of the Carling cup in the UK. Before this match, Atletico de Madrid hadn't beaten Real Madrid in 14 years. Not even the cellar dweller teams have such a poor record. A month ago they played Real Madrid in a league game and even though they scored first, (which is disturbingly often the case) they conceded two goals. It's true to say they had a complex. Well last night they conceded a goal first and even though they had a lot of luck finally going their way for a change (three posts and a line save and two incredible saves from the goalkeeper - yes my nerves were shot) they managed in extra time to score the match winner.

It's interesting to get an insight into the support of these teams and how the loyal fans of a team that's fair to say struggles and is used to suffering can stand behind their team even when things are rough. For the match to be won in their enemy's stadium is the icing on the cake but the main thing that made the victory sweeter is how long the fans had to wait for that victory. I've lived in Madrid for 8 years and have never seen them beat their main rivals. They've had a lot of victories over Barcelona and have a few European trophies but their record against Real Madrid has been bereft of joy.

I know a day will come when one of the nations who has never beaten NZ will do so and I imagine the celebrations will be similar to last night. England would have preferred not to have waited so long but the manner of their defeat of NZ was the icing on the cake but I dare say the time between their last victory made it even sweeter.

NZ doesn't have to wait as much for their revenge matches but one that stands out was 2010. SA had beaten us 3 times in 2009 and the match in Marseille was critical in that reversal of form in the autumn tour. Then the bubbles of seething anger spilled over into the test match at Eden Park in 2010 and it was one of the most comprehensive games I had ever seen. Again though, as pleasing as the manner of the victory was, the sweetness of the victory was established by the humiliation of the previous year's whitewash.

As I write this the Crusaders got revenge for their defeat earlier in the year. The pack looked mean and aggressive. What is the victory that stands out for you in terms of waiting a long time for it, whether it be club, provincial or test matches?

Sheesh!!! No one but a Canterbury fan could get a thread going in the International section, founded on Canterbury's narrow win over Auckland.

Narrow! You could park an air craft carrier between the two sides' point margin.

But you bring up a good point. Auckland throughout the mid 80s and 90s were untouchable. That Super 12 victory when we somehow squeaked a win felt good after years of pain and suffering.

If I say it was narrow then it was narrow... My night is ruined..

I read the rest of your article (above) was that a soccer game you went to or a bullfight?

Sometimes it was both but it was supposed to be a football match. Special atmosphere and the fans and their reaction made the night. The football is a side distraction but the friends I go with and the passion of the supporters is what really stands out for me.

Sounds very exotic, the game sounds like Mid Canterbury beating Canterbury for the Ranfurly shield.

Atletico are not that bad a team. They are in the Champions League next year. But in terms of results between the two sides, your comparison is most apt.

The weather has turned very cold here after some hot weather. When you're in your main rival's stadium with quite a few drinks in you, you tend to blot out the cold. When you lose to a team that hasn't beaten you in 14 years in your own stadium I imagine the cold becomes a lot more apparent.

I reckon that's one reason BOD is playing on-one more crack at NZ

One major New Zealand revenge was their 1995 World Cup demolition of England. The All Blacks had lost their last game, at Twickenham in 1993, and did not enjoy it. Andrew Mehrtens summed it up afterwards, rather ungraciously, by saying that England "are pricks to lose to".

The way I see it NZ don't have any revenge sources these days. For one, we win more than our share of matches. far more than most sides or even teams do within any sport at the international level.

So for that reason alone, having a case for revenge is just selfish, when considering we share this game with other very talented and well meaning sides (and fans) who put just as much work into bettering their sides as we do.

Sure we set high standards but that means we also should have less reason to complain about losing (even though we do- the nature of the beast).

The only revenge scenario I recall is when the Boks had this figure I can never forget- 18-13 wins. For me for a while EVERY test was revenge in order to get that balance reversed because while it went in SA's favour, I never truly thought we were the best side.

Since then we've more than addressed that anomoly and have in the pro era outstripped our SA foe on a head to head basis convincingly enough to no longer warrant the revenge factor any more.

For other sides, its more annoying than anything else in that when a side beats us after many can't..nothing changes. We go back to winning and the other side goes back to whatever they were doing before beating us. No one goes on with any authority or domination of any kind. Except for 5 distinct periods- Oz 91ish and 99ish, England marginally in 02/ 03 from a NZ point of view and SA in 95-97 and 09, NZ have largely dominated and for each orf the periods above the opposing sides have been dealt to on each occasion shortly afterwards.

naaah, for me the revenge factor to be truly present a real foe needs to be present, constantly hounding, in your face sort of thing, and for whatever the reason, other than the odd one off, there hasnt been one for a very long time.

Nah I disagree Taylorman.
I want revenge against England for last years trouncing. For me that loss will only be avenged after about 10 years of beating England with a couple of thrashings on the way. If they beat us again before say 2020 I will be jolly p*ssed off.
Selfish yes but that's what I want.

Really? Maybe I'm not enough of a glutton. England did us well and good that match. I was very impressed.

I was more disappointed that they went back to medoicre-ville after inflicting us with such an impressive victory to the point that its now (and only in retrospect) that a long season of winning everything then playing a match with nothing much more tangible than another 'W' on it, combined with a rare virus, you have to think the AB's were perhaps not at 100%. Not making excuses but you have to look at whats in front of you.

And I just don't have enough motivation to want to revenge what was likely a another one off.

I think it's great that a side with a backbone of at least 8 hurricane youth beat the Aucklanders. (It's getting desperate here and I'll take glory where I can).

South Africa's revenge on all teams is still be plotted, but as yer haven't come off.

I agree Tman that as fans it's greedy but that explains to some extent the NZ record. We don't deal with failure well and demand the impossible. Not only to win but to win well.

So when a team like England beats us comprehensively we demand revenge. An exciting component has been added to the November tests because of that. But imagine if England won again! A fatwa equivalent would be launched by the rabid media.

Yeah I know but as usually happens, and like France in 2007 we went on to win the next 10 straight or something like that- revenge overkill...we'll front next against England a little more determined but the next few are likely to go the same way. We need someone to consistently front up..I really miss that.
Been waiting for SA to be that side and still think they will be the next to gain world domination. Just thought it would happen before now...

We'll never gain world domination ever.

Our collective doesn't work, there is too much internal politics, our Administrators are there for themselves and do not make decisions best for rugby, and then there is pol........and then of course our coaches are too conservative

Perhaps. Maybe the game itself will lend itself towards the SA game. I think we've done what can be done with the all out attack gameplans and its proven that really good defences can shut it down. Oz seem to have sussed us at sxv level and they could be a handful for us in the 4N, where they may struggle with the Boks instead this year. Somethings changed this year and we're not doing anything new, so I'm expecting a fallout somewhere.

Perhaps the new era in rugby will evolve back through the forwards in a far more mobile sense, playing right into the Boks hands.

It'll certainly be interesting this year but innovation is linked in part to revenge. If a team figures out a strategy to beat us we often work hard to find a way to counter it. Whereas we tend to be constantly tweaking things in order not to be figured out. I think there is still room for inprovement and adaptation of the gameplan from last year. Lets see what we do in the French series before we judge the AB gameplan.

One thing I really do hope (And this is not a whinge) the referees sort out this year is the constant infringing on the offside line of the attacking ruck.

I watched the Crusaders closely this weekend, and the number of times they have to pillars standing in an offside position not even bound in any way to the ruck to obstruct access to the ball and halfback is unacceptable.

They aren't the only team doing it, but it is BS.

Just a thought. French are equal best tourists down here in terms of tours (2 or more tests, i.e. I've included 2 match tours in the tri nations):
Tourists Won Drawn Lost
Argentina 0 0 3
Australia 2 1 16
British and Irish Lions 1 0 9
England 0 0 5
France 1 2 5
Ireland 0 0 4
Scotland 0 0 4
South Africa 1 2 5
Wales 0 0 3

Hell I still want revenge on the Welsh for the Deans try/non try

nganboy wrote:Hell I still want revenge on the Welsh for the Deans try/non try

I know what you mean Ngan...I mean the last 25 over 60 years just doesnt seem...well...enough.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Feeling a bit worse for wear today. The Crusaders beating the Blues at home is helping. But it was an incredible night last night and the celebrations were something to behold. Spanish people know how to have a good time.

I went to the final between Real Madrid and Atletico de Madrid for the Copa del Rey (The King's Cup), which is the equivalent of the Carling cup in the UK. Before this match, Atletico de Madrid hadn't beaten Real Madrid in 14 years. Not even the cellar dweller teams have such a poor record. A month ago they played Real Madrid in a league game and even though they scored first, (which is disturbingly often the case) they conceded two goals. It's true to say they had a complex. Well last night they conceded a goal first and even though they had a lot of luck finally going their way for a change (three posts and a line save and two incredible saves from the goalkeeper - yes my nerves were shot) they managed in extra time to score the match winner.

It's interesting to get an insight into the support of these teams and how the loyal fans of a team that's fair to say struggles and is used to suffering can stand behind their team even when things are rough. For the match to be won in their enemy's stadium is the icing on the cake but the main thing that made the victory sweeter is how long the fans had to wait for that victory. I've lived in Madrid for 8 years and have never seen them beat their main rivals. They've had a lot of victories over Barcelona and have a few European trophies but their record against Real Madrid has been bereft of joy.

I know a day will come when one of the nations who has never beaten NZ will do so and I imagine the celebrations will be similar to last night. England would have preferred not to have waited so long but the manner of their defeat of NZ was the icing on the cake but I dare say the time between their last victory made it even sweeter.

NZ doesn't have to wait as much for their revenge matches but one that stands out was 2010. SA had beaten us 3 times in 2009 and the match in Marseille was critical in that reversal of form in the autumn tour. Then the bubbles of seething anger spilled over into the test match at Eden Park in 2010 and it was one of the most comprehensive games I had ever seen. Again though, as pleasing as the manner of the victory was, the sweetness of the victory was established by the humiliation of the previous year's whitewash.

As I write this the Crusaders got revenge for their defeat earlier in the year. The pack looked mean and aggressive. What is the victory that stands out for you in terms of waiting a long time for it, whether it be club, provincial or test matches?

Question for you Kia: after Graham Henry's latest desperate attack on a match official via the media where he accuses Wyatt Crockett (of all people) of cheating at scrum time, do you think he will apologise to Stu Dickenson?

Ted apologise? No chance. Not to say he doesn't have a point especially about the offside at rucks.

Glorious Empire - why do you put "...(of all people)..." ?

I liked the RWC 2011 semi. Not so much the ABs, but the fans finally getting back at the convicts. the FOUR MORE YEARS!! chants at Eden Park were deafening