Heineken Cup Draw and Discussion. - Opening round fixtures announced.

First topic message reminder :

Pool 1 - Leinster, Northampton Saints, Ospreys, Castres Olympique

Pool 2 - Toulon, Cardiff Blues, Glasgow Warriors, Exeter Chiefs

Pool 3 - Toulouse, Saracens, Connacht, Zebre

Pool 4 - Clermont Auvergne, Harlequins, Scarlets, Racing Metro 92

Pool 5 - Ulster, Leicester Tigers, Montpellier, Benetton Treviso

Pool 6 - Munster, Perpignan, Edinburgh, Gloucester

First round:- Commencing 11/10/2013

Pool 1:
Castres v Northampton Saints
Ospreys v Leinster

Pool 2:
Exeter Chiefs v Cardiff Blues
Toulon v Glasgow Warriors

Pool 3:
Connacht v Saracens
Toulouse v Zebre

Pool 4:
Quins v Scarlets
Racing Métro v ASM Clermont Auvergne

Pool 5:
Ulster v  Leicester Tigers
Treviso v Montpellier

Pool 6:
Edinburgh v Munster
Gloucester v Perpignan

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/news/21719.php#.Ue0Qm43T_Tp

SecretFly wrote:Munster's group is the very one I jokingly said I'd like to see Leinster get a few days ago. But I laughed it off as being too much wishful thinking.

Munster stole the joke!

oh dear all the blue rinsed brigade seem to have turned into cute hoors..

Saints are flakey, Castres have no European pedigree and the O's are definitely not the force they were...not particularly that much harder than Munsters group...get a grip man

DOD - amn't I only congratulating you on winning the lotto.

Of course collecting the cheque might be trickier, with all the media looking on and the new found lost relatives suddenly turning up with old photagraphs of the fambily.

But on paper at least, before the battle actually commences, you've won the Group of Hammock under Two Palm Trees

Cardiff Dave wrote:

wales606 wrote:

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:

will give Cardiff a miss though. Rather odd lot.

He's right though and we had 2 seemingly rival supporters' clubs till not so long ago, both organising separate transport to the same away game. The EDF final at Twickers for example. How odd is that? I must admit however we are getting better at not being odd.

Really? That's brilliant:

Judean People's Front? Pfah. Never. We are the People's Front of Judea

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:What's the city of Clermont like?

From a strictly touristy PoV, not up to much; but for a rugby weekend, absolutely amazing

There's tyres everywhere.

I've wanted to see Leinster and Ospreys do battle in Europe for a while after some of the domestic games and finals between the two in the past couple of years. I just hope Ospreys aren't so hampered by injuries again so they can be more competitive. Unfortunately for them that's likely given the flogging their players will get with the Lions and then Wales' 4 autumn games.

As a Scarlet fan it looks like i will be watching from behind the sofa with tis group.
Also Treviso to make it out of the pool as an outside bet.

Shame Saints are losing Mujati and Tiny because it would have been great to watch the Ospreys scrum down against them.

DOD wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Munster's group is the very one I jokingly said I'd like to see Leinster get a few days ago. But I laughed it off as being too much wishful thinking.

Munster stole the joke!

oh dear all the blue rinsed brigade seem to have turned into cute hoors..

Saints are flakey, Castres have no European pedigree and the O's are definitely not the force they were...not particularly that much harder than Munsters group...get a grip man

Everyone's a comedian these days.

T14 champs AP finalists and the Ospreys on one side. A few wet dishcloths that couldn't punch their way out of a wet paper bag on the other.

Castres are probably the poorest French side in the tournament. Champions or not. League form matters diddly squat in Europe.

Look at Ospreys who have won more Celtic Leagues than any other team. However they have never ever even managed to top a Heineken Cup pool in history.

Come on. Be serious. I would kill to get Leinster into that group. If you don't get a home quarter.......

Read my comments earlier. I'm dancing around the maypole with Munsters group. Chuffed and fully expect us to march on to quarters. Flip this kidology and playing down our chances.

Just making point re: league form v european pedigree.

Perpignan were beaten at home by stade in the amlin semi. Stade are MUCK. Glaws are mediocre at best and Embra..... ffs. could you pick a handier group?

red_stag wrote:Read my comments earlier. I'm dancing around the maypole with Munsters group. Chuffed and fully expect us to march on to quarters. Flip this kidology and playing down our chances.

Just making point re: league form v european pedigree.

fair enough. wasn't you with the original comedy gold.

St John The Enforcer wrote:Perpignan were beaten at home by stade in the amlin semi. Stade are MUCK. Glaws are mediocre at best and Embra..... ffs. could you pick a handier group?

I know

Can't wait.

Looking forward to Connacht v Saracens in the sportsground. See will they go the way of Quins on a cold night with wind and rain coming off the Atlantic......

Can see all the tier 1 sides coming through their pools, with Ulster having the toughest ride in pool 5. Saracens coming out of pool 3 as best placed runner up but the last place??

ChequeredJersey wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:As a quins fan I feel that that is a really tough group - with 2 massive French teams. I will enjoy watching the games, perhaps 1 or 2 away fixtures but its a big ask to get out of this group.

Exeter should be pleased as they can reach the KO stages as 2nd in group.
Sarries and Tigers should look to progress too as they have the Italian sides.

But with our team don't you think that the experience of a tough group will be better in the long-term? Either we make it and have a great shot at the Cup and confidence and learn a lot or we don't, still learn from playing the best, and get to focus on getting back the AP without the distraction of Europe, or we do OK, get a mix of the two and have a great chance of winning the Amlin? I can't help but feel that we were both overstretched in both competitions at the end of last season and undercooked in Europe

Looking at both those French teams packs I can see a lot of injuries in our forwards by the end of the season...

I agree with CJ though, the season just gone was oddly muted for Quins so hopefully a much tougher pool with a lot more competition in it will make the team go up a few gears. I think we need a big win early, get out tails up and we could top the pool and get that momentum building, start off with a loss though and it'll be a long season!

Perhaps looking at that pool will make CoS realise that we need a couple more signings?

I'll probably try to see Scarlets and Clermont at home as I really like both teams styles of play, Scarlets when on form can be brilliant and shouldn't be forgotten.

Munster should get a home QF
Toulon should get a home QF
One of sarries or Toulouse should get a home QF
One up for grabs IMO. Ulster will have to play very well to get a home QF.

I like the look of Leinsters group. From an entertainment point of view. Are the fixtures announced? I'd rather play Castres later on when they've given up.

The Saint wrote:I've wanted to see Leinster and Ospreys do battle in Europe for a while after some of the domestic games and finals between the two in the past couple of years. I just hope Ospreys aren't so hampered by injuries again so they can be more competitive. Unfortunately for them that's likely given the flogging their players will get with the Lions and then Wales' 4 autumn games.

Come now, Saint. Leinster will be already missing the Three Wise Men of Schmidt, Nacewa and Sexton; and God will be in his last punch-drunk cotton-wool season. Let's not shine Osprey's dejection for them with too much sympathy. They'll be in a fair fight when Leinster try out 'ordinariness' next season.

Happy with the blues draw, i would like 3 home wins and an away win in that campaign. We have Toulon in the group but we were close to them at home and scored 4 tries against them away from home so a win at CAP is definitely doable, especially with a strong pack than this season just gone. Get a win over them in CAP before a revenge pummelling in the south of france .

Glasgow and Exeter will be tough to crack away from home but i'd like to think we'd progress from this years poor home record and actually win these games against teams of this standard. Glasgow had a great P12 campaign but have been historically poor in the HEC, Exeter did well last year and are a very good team - i would just hope the international class we have within the squad could see us through against them.

Next season we should have a real go, having lost Roberts to metro it means it could be a chance for more creativity in the centres and less of the crash ball style, which will no doubt help our wingers get a look in more often. I also want to see the rise of Rhys Patchell continue, he was one of few blues players who come from this season with a good reputation and it was his first year. I hope the team wales vultures stay away and just let him be, i'd much rather he stay with blues and play pro 12, HEC and also the LV cup games to get as much experience as possible than turn out for a makeshift team wales against tonga and taking a physical battering.

There's no reason why a team of:

1. Gethin Jenkins
2. Matthew Rees
3. Scott Andrews
4. Bradley Davies
5. Filo Paulo
6. Josh Navidi
7. Sam Warburton
8. Robin Copeland

9. Lloyd Williams
10. Rhys Patchell
11. Harry Robinson
12.
13. Cory Allen
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Leigh Halfpenny

Can't compete for 2nd place with Glasgow and Exeter, the only issue for me would be who fills the 12 shirt left by Roberts. We have Gavin Evans and Daf Hewitt but i would hope we could bring someone in to fill that shirt that you would consider a 'marquee' signing. Probably won't happen mind!

SecretFly wrote:

The Saint wrote:I've wanted to see Leinster and Ospreys do battle in Europe for a while after some of the domestic games and finals between the two in the past couple of years. I just hope Ospreys aren't so hampered by injuries again so they can be more competitive. Unfortunately for them that's likely given the flogging their players will get with the Lions and then Wales' 4 autumn games.

Come now, Saint. Leinster will be already missing the Three Wise Men of Schmidt, Nacewa and Sexton; and God will be in his last punch-drunk cotton-wool season. Let's not shine Osprey's dejection for them with too much sympathy. They'll be in a fair fight when Leinster try out 'ordinariness' next season.

True. You had better hope that both Kearneys and Madigan are available. Goodman and McFadden wouldn't be a bad midfield and there's plenty of good back-row players. Leinster play at a high intensity with such a fast pace so Ospreys will need their first choice pack just to stay in the game.

St John The Enforcer wrote:Perpignan were beaten at home by stade in the amlin semi. Stade are MUCK. Glaws are mediocre at best and Embra..... ffs. could you pick a handier group?

Wouldn't write off Gloucester quite so quickly. I wouldn't expect them to qualify but they are one of these teams who can really throw a spanner in the works and effect proceedings. They'll be targeting 3 home wins but realistically more likely to get 2, slipping up somewhere along the line. However they are likely to play a really attacking brand of rugby, capable of scoring from anywhere and dangerous for anyone they face. The tight 5 are their undoing - they won't stand up against the top packs - but the back row is as good as any and the backs can be some of the most threatening in the competition. You will probably score against them but also likely to concede a fair few. Any backline containing Burns, Twelvetrees, Trinder, Sharples, May and Simpson-Daniel will invariably create chances against anyone. Can definitely see them upsetting the apple cart in the league. HC may be a step too far at this stage but as I said, write them off at your peril.

It seems that the host nation/city of next year finals might change. Since the FFR has issues with the stade de france consortutium, a final in Paris is in jeopardy. The FFR suggested Lilles but the ERC would rather look at another country. Any takers?

jeffwinger wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:Perpignan were beaten at home by stade in the amlin semi. Stade are MUCK. Glaws are mediocre at best and Embra..... ffs. could you pick a handier group?

Wouldn't write off Gloucester quite so quickly. I wouldn't expect them to qualify but they are one of these teams who can really throw a spanner in the works and effect proceedings. They'll be targeting 3 home wins but realistically more likely to get 2, slipping up somewhere along the line. However they are likely to play a really attacking brand of rugby, capable of scoring from anywhere and dangerous for anyone they face. The tight 5 are their undoing - they won't stand up against the top packs - but the back row is as good as any and the backs can be some of the most threatening in the competition. You will probably score against them but also likely to concede a fair few. Any backline containing Burns, Twelvetrees, Trinder, Sharples, May and Simpson-Daniel will invariably create chances against anyone. Can definitely see them upsetting the apple cart in the league. HC may be a step too far at this stage but as I said, write them off at your peril.

Oh I think we all know the schyt can hit the fan in any pool when the actual competition begins. This is just the silly season fun part of assuming ease or difficulty in advance.

whocares wrote:It seems that the host nation/city of next year finals might change. Since the FFR has issues with the stade de france consortutium, a final in Paris is in jeopardy. The FFR suggested Lilles but the ERC would rather look at another country. Any takers?

Surely Italy is the logical choice. Stadio Olimpico (Heineken) and Stadio Flaminio (Amlin).

It would seem that Kairdiff is interested

They should play it in King Baudouin Stadium, Belgium. Good chance to expand the game.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Baudouin_Stadium

red_stag wrote:

whocares wrote:It seems that the host nation/city of next year finals might change. Since the FFR has issues with the stade de france consortutium, a final in Paris is in jeopardy. The FFR suggested Lilles but the ERC would rather look at another country. Any takers?

Surely Italy is the logical choice. Stadio Olimpico (Heineken) and Stadio Flaminio (Amlin).

Totally agree - the Stadio Olimpico is a beautiful venue. And all of the fans are usually equally beautiful in it. That will change, obviously, with all of the Glasgow fans there for the final.

Neutral grounds are naturally an attractive proposition so Rome, Brussels and Cardiff are all good shouts.

greytiger wrote:Neutral grounds are naturally an attractive proposition so Rome, Brussels and Cardiff are all good shouts.

Cheeky

Pool 3 shows what is wrong with the current structure of the HC. Completely imbalanced.

Take out Connacht,Zebre,Edinburgh and Perpignan and there would be a far more balanced and stronger competition.

I must say I am looking forward to the matches with Toulouse though.

beshocked wrote:Pool 3 shows what is wrong with the current structure of the HC. Completely imbalanced.

Take out Connacht,Zebre,Edinburgh and Perpignan and there would be a far more balanced and stronger competition.

I must say I am looking forward to the matches with Toulouse though.

Based on league performance it would be Cardiff, Zebre, Edinburgh and Perpignan.

I wonder will you end up with a grudging respect for Connacht after playing them twice this year, the way you did for Treviso...

beshocked wrote:Pool 3 shows what is wrong with the current structure of the HC. Completely imbalanced.

Take out Connacht,Zebre,Edinburgh and Perpignan and there would be a far more balanced and stronger competition.

I must say I am looking forward to the matches with Toulouse though.

So Saracens are guaranteed quarter-finalists. They can concentrate all the resources on the AP and send out 3rd string sides to Zebre and Connacht in the HC. Congrats, beshocked, we all look for pools like your one

JayMaster3000 wrote:They should play it in King Baudouin Stadium, Belgium. Good chance to expand the game.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Baudouin_Stadium

There are no Belgium teams in ERC. They can feckkoff if they think they can get the show piece event.

Secretfly no we are not guaranteed quarter finals. Still need to turn up with high intensity. No - can't send out weakened sides. Need to win first and foremost if the bonus point looks like it's do able then go for it.

I expect the team to target 5 pointers at home and 4 points away.

Jenifer I think the game in Connacht could be a potential bananaskin if Saracens players are too complacent. Zebre could do too.

Connacht and Zebre have nothing to lose as the heavy underdogs. We will need to match the passion and intensity they should bring.

red_stag wrote:

JayMaster3000 wrote:They should play it in King Baudouin Stadium, Belgium. Good chance to expand the game.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Baudouin_Stadium

There are no Belgium teams in ERC. They can feckkoff if they think they can get the show piece event.

That's the way to keep the game in-house with the glass ceiling intact.

Top notch spin mate. A+.

There you go, even against Connacht and Zebre, you can't risk and you have to prepare seriously or get turned over by a 'surprise' explosion of intensity from weak sides in HC. Part physical, part practical, part mental.

That's HC.

Saracens will send out weakened sides against some of their colleagues in AP next season, I'm sure of it. But against HC little fish, it would be always an unwise move.

jaymaster3000 good idea.

I think the king baudoin stadium would be an excellent venue. Brussels is a lovely city. Transport links are good. It's easy getting there. I know from experience having seen Sarries playing Racing Metro there. I would go back again.

The ERC are far too narrow minded.

I think it ironic that Pro12 fans criticise us English for not thinking of the Irish,Italians,Scottish and Welsh in regards to European competitions but are happy to ignore the emerging nations like Belgium,Germany,Russia,Portugal,Georgia,Romania, Spain and so on.

Who are the narrow minded ones? As greytiger says - got to keep the old boys club intact.

greytiger wrote:

red_stag wrote:

JayMaster3000 wrote:They should play it in King Baudouin Stadium, Belgium. Good chance to expand the game.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Baudouin_Stadium

There are no Belgium teams in ERC. They can feckkoff if they think they can get the show piece event.

That's the way to keep the game in-house with the glass ceiling intact.

Top notch spin mate. A+.

Apologies I think that we should have the Heineken Cup final in Uganda next year. In 2015 we'll have it in Mozambique and the year after that its best to ensure that Cuba have a chance to host it.

Denying Belgium the biggest club rugby match in Europe when they contribute nothing is not hurting the game. It is not admitting them to the lower competitions in the first place.

Rome and Barcelona are deserving of places IMO. Italy and Spain are long standing ERC members and would represent new desintations. The likes of Belgium and Holland can go whistle if they think they'll take Europes biggest club rugby game.

red_stag wrote:

greytiger wrote:

red_stag wrote:

JayMaster3000 wrote:They should play it in King Baudouin Stadium, Belgium. Good chance to expand the game.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Baudouin_Stadium

There are no Belgium teams in ERC. They can feckkoff if they think they can get the show piece event.

That's the way to keep the game in-house with the glass ceiling intact.

Top notch spin mate. A+.

Apologies I think that we should have the Heineken Cup final in Uganda next year. In 2015 we'll have it in Mozambique and the year after that its best to ensure that Cuba have a chance to host it.

Denying Belgium the biggest club rugby match in Europe when they contribute nothing is not hurting the game. It is not admitting them to the lower competitions in the first place.

Rome and Barcelona are deserving of places IMO. Italy and Spain are long standing ERC members and would represent new desintations. The likes of Belgium and Holland can go whistle if they think they'll take Europes biggest club rugby game.

No point considering Brussels just because it's in the epicentre (unlike Mozambique or Cuba) of the 6Ns. Silly me.

beshocked wrote:

I think it ironic that Pro12 fans criticise us English for not thinking of the Irish,Italians,Scottish and Welsh in regards to European competitions but are happy to ignore the emerging nations like Belgium,Germany,Russia,Portugal,Georgia,Romania, Spain and so on.

Who are the narrow minded ones? As greytiger says - got to keep the old boys club intact.

You want more HC pools with minnows in them to upset the balance of competitivity???

And of course the most world renowned old boys club ...well, - you live in it. "Any competition is good as long as we're in the main event by right."

There was talk a few months back about the possibility of having a Sevens 6N competition between the regular 6N sides. And everyone was reasonably enthusiastic about the idea. And I was even happy enough about the concept even though I said we'd probably be picking up the wooden spoon for the first five or six years!
Anyway, everthing was going smoothly until I saw one bright spark emerge and put forward his ten cents worth. He was really eager, you could detect his enthusaism in his posts but his best bit was when he quite genuinely and innocently suggested that England could maybe put forward two sides into the competiton.

Yep...that'd work. France, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, England A, Italy, England B. Some old boys can't help themselves...it's a natural instinctive flow.

greytiger wrote:

red_stag wrote:

greytiger wrote:

red_stag wrote:

JayMaster3000 wrote:They should play it in King Baudouin Stadium, Belgium. Good chance to expand the game.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Baudouin_Stadium

There are no Belgium teams in ERC. They can feckkoff if they think they can get the show piece event.

That's the way to keep the game in-house with the glass ceiling intact.

Top notch spin mate. A+.

Apologies I think that we should have the Heineken Cup final in Uganda next year. In 2015 we'll have it in Mozambique and the year after that its best to ensure that Cuba have a chance to host it.

Denying Belgium the biggest club rugby match in Europe when they contribute nothing is not hurting the game. It is not admitting them to the lower competitions in the first place.

Rome and Barcelona are deserving of places IMO. Italy and Spain are long standing ERC members and would represent new desintations. The likes of Belgium and Holland can go whistle if they think they'll take Europes biggest club rugby game.

No point considering Brussels just because it's in the epicentre (unlike Mozambique or Cuba) of the 6Ns. Silly me.

Yes it is silly you.

I never suggested a ring-fenced HC. I want meritocratic entry based on performance and form.

No free entries, no drop-downs no best runners-up.
The best available choice currently is 8x3 pools for three cups.

H/a quarters an semis as well.

Belgium is the epicentre of too many things... world wars and the EU - to name a few that I'm not hot on

Give it to Rome or Barcelona.

Secretfly I didn't say I wanted more HC pools with minnows.

I want to see HC pools with less minnows. I want to see more Pro12 sides in the Amlin where some of them belong till they prove their worth. I know you don't believe in qualifying by merit.

Could expand the European competition though - either make the Amlin bigger or make a 3rd tier.

greytiger wrote:I never suggested a ring-fenced HC. I want meritocratic entry based on performance and form.

No free entries, no drop-downs no best runners-up.
The best available choice currently is 8x3 pools for three cups.

H/a quarters an semis as well.

But Grey, Grey, Grey, Grey...meritocracy would mean the best 24 sides in Europe...not the top 8 in each league. A 9th place side in one league might be the kind of a side that would wipe out a 8th best side in another league. Yes?

So, to say the best eight sides in each league is admitting it's not a genuine meritocracy but a 'design' to come up with 24 teams. As a design, it can be both supported and challenged. As a design, others can say they have a better one. As a design, it ain't meritocratic.

If we really want to do the meritocratic bit, then best 24 sides THROUGH the leagues, based on wins, points scored, tries scored and bonuses. Absolute best 24 side - period.

SecretFly wrote:

greytiger wrote:I never suggested a ring-fenced HC. I want meritocratic entry based on performance and form.

No free entries, no drop-downs no best runners-up.
The best available choice currently is 8x3 pools for three cups.

H/a quarters an semis as well.

But Grey, Grey, Grey, Grey...meritocracy would mean the best 24 sides in Europe...not the top 6 in each league. A 7th place side in one league might be the kind of a side that would wipe out a 6th best side in another league. Yes?

So, to say the best six sides in each league is admitting it's not a genuine meritocracy but a 'design' to come up with 24 teams. As a design, it can be both supported and challenged. As a design, others can say they have a better one. As a design, it ain't meritocratic.

If we really want to do the meritocratic bit, then best 24 sides THROUGH the leagues, based on wins, points scored, tries scored and bonuses. Absolute best 24 side - period.

I agree. Almost from the day of the first first skirmishes, I've planted my feet firmly in both camps and have been saying fairly neutral stuff.

And one of the main pitfalls has had to be the bizarre ERC rankings mechanism.

beshocked wrote:Secretfly I didn't say I wanted more HC pools with minnows.

I want to see HC pools with less minnows. I want to see more Pro12 sides in the Amlin where some of them belong till they prove their worth. I know you don't believe in qualifying by merit.

Could expand the European competition though - either make the Amlin bigger or make a 3rd tier.

I believe in merit proving itself where 'merit' claims it belongs - in Europe. That's what I believe, beshocked. Always have. No free rides. If you're good enough to get into the QFs, you get into them. If you're good enough to progress into the finals, you progress. Merit talking rather than claiming. I don't believe in annointed merit seldom proving itself, in whatever league; and English and French leagues certainly have as many of those sides propping up the HC as Pro12 does.

It is your countrymen that have been moaning about the silliness of Leinster and Clermont meeting in the pool stages. I've said time and time again, you take what you get. Leinster weren't good enough to progress and should have no structures helping them get to a final. I don't mind mind losing and allowing 'merit' to progress. But others dictating entry requirements I do argue against, and will continue to do so. You (RFU/PRL) decide how you choose your 6 automatic entries and the rest of us will choose how we select our automatic entries. Entries are automatic, not merit based.

sorry, I of course meant 8 sides each there folks!

beshocked wrote:Secretfly I didn't say I wanted more HC pools with minnows.

I want to see HC pools with less minnows. I want to see more Pro12 sides in the Amlin where some of them belong till they prove their worth. I know you don't believe in qualifying by merit.

Could expand the European competition though - either make the Amlin bigger or make a 3rd tier.

The third tier is a great suggestion. I'm firmly behind the 24 team Heineken Cup and a stronger Amlin Cup along with a new third tier development tournament.

Let countries like Belgium earn their stripes. If we have the Heineken Cup Final in Rome 2014 we will have come a long way. Then bring it to Edinburgh 2015 and look at Barcelona 2016. By the time it gets back to Cardiff or Paris in 2017 its been to two new destinations and everyone has had a few more bites at the cherry.

But Belgium/Holland/Germany etc do not deserve the Heineken Cup Final I feel. I don't see how anyone could claim it is a good idea.