Are these Warm up games. Doing the Lions any good??

Like the title says. Are these warm up game/s doing the Lions any good? Watched to days game when i got home from work, and apart from the first 20 minutes it looked more like men v boys. yes there was some good moves, some good trys. And Halfpenny's kicking at goal was fantastic.

But are these games giving the Lions false hope?

Discuss.

I wouldn't say 'false hope', as I do think these games are valuable in terms of cementing combinations, players getting used to each other in a game situation, but the lack of quality of the opposition is making it silly to read too much into them imo

I personally think the scheduling has a lot to do with it firstly, then considering that you still have a Super XV going on and Deans wants his squad protected all culminates into these warm up fixtures being a bit of a farce.

I see everyone in OZ is now acting out on Foley the Force coach saying he should have selected his strongest squad.

Have less warmup games and rather have invitation XV's play, considering that the Lions are made up of four nations, why dillute the opposition team due to circumstances.

In fact I would suggest that OZ, NZ and SA make a barbarian type team up from the best players available who will not take part in the coming internationals.

Call it a combined Super XV invitational team if you will.

They could even play two matches, it would provide an opportunity for players not in the international picture to play the Lions and will provide the Lions with competitive matches.

Why cant future tours be scheduled later in the summer? I know there will be a clash with NH clubs but many players have a rest following tour anyway, why couldnt the tour run from second week of June through to August? (which would also mean extra fixtures which I think IMO should happen as I dont think 9and a half games is enough prep)

I realise this may not eliminate the issue of it coinciding with the s15 season but could stop the issue of players having 1 week un uk before they leave leading to greater unity..

You could probably also have a Premiership/Rabo XV as well

Again Biltong, you seem to defend the ARU as a SH friend, yet the lions really have to be shown for what it is, essentially an old school chummy jolly that in the pro era is worth millions to the home nations governing body and at detriment to the home unions it represents, I'd think the ARU would be far more appreciative of the money that the lions brings in (which it really needs right now).

Not only does the lions bring in an obscene amount of money, it also represents the traditions of old that the game was founded upon, that tradition being tarnished by the ultra profesionalism these days.

A lions tour is a once in a career opportunity (to play in or against) for players and the chance of winning in, or beating this historic tradition must be a priority to every player when the chance arrises.

For me the lions tour is up there with the Haka, and reasons our game is far superior to others, it's just hard to respect teams that pass it off as not important when a bottom of the league team would prefer to finish slightly less bottom of the table than 4/5 points bottom of the table.

There is a reason Foley is taking flak, a damn good one!

for once blues I agree with 100% of your post

I am not defending anyone mate, this is the professional era, things aren't the way it used to be.

Careers, reputations, money, sponsors etc are involved.

I understand the Lions want competitive matches, I made a suggestion of how to solve the problem, that is not defending anyone.

Biltong wrote:I am not defending anyone mate, this is the professional era, things aren't the way it used to be.

Careers, reputations, money, sponsors etc are involved.

I understand the Lions want competitive matches, I made a suggestion of how to solve the problem, that is not defending anyone.

Maybe I've misunderstood, I apologise.

But even though the game has moved on, respect is still a huge priority in our game, if players were able to sway a ref's mind we still wouldn't want to see players harrassing him, if the Haka was deemed to create an unjust preperation for the AB's we wouldn't want it scrapped, and just because the lions tour is proving a touch awkward for Super teams (try seeing how it kills the home unions it represents, without the funding gains) theres no reason to move it around, it's been minimalised to a point where the lions have literally no chance of success as it is!

Bluesman, The season for the Force will be over in three weeks time, could not all this have been avoided with a bit more competence in the scheduling department?

Bluesman, let me give you an idea of the professional are in the SH.

In 2007 Jake White sacraficed the Tri Nations for the RWC.

In 2011 Pieter de Villiers AND Graham Henry sacraficed the Trinations.

This year McCaw and Carter and a host of other prominant All Blacks are being managed and have have sabbaticals or at least a few weeks off.

Coaches prioritise and decide what must be sacraficed.

Sending weak teams against the Lions is not unique, if it happens at the highest level the Tri Nations, why would the Lions be given the highest priority by Franchises.

I am not saying it is right, what I am saying is, the reality is far removed from the romantic idea of traditional Lions tours.

A compromise must be found.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Bluesman, The season for the Force will be over in three weeks time, could not all this have been avoided with a bit more competence in the scheduling department?

exactly.

again i ask could the lions tour not be schedule for later in the NH summer?

Biltong wrote:I am not defending anyone mate, this is the professional era, things aren't the way it used to be.

Careers, reputations, money, sponsors etc are involved.

I understand the Lions want competitive matches, I made a suggestion of how to solve the problem, that is not defending anyone.

It would be interesting to see a lions tour at the end of the SH season, when the November tests are usually played. Would work better for everyone.

Maesteg, It doesnt even have to be as late as November, why not just let the super xv take its course and play the Lions "warm up" games in four weeks time (is it really that long to wait?), at least then the teams could put a top fifteen out on the park and these allegations of disrespect could be avoided.

There is also another alternative, the Aussies could do what us Kiwis have done, we play our first test against France on Saturday night, No "Warm up" games....

No that would work well for the Lions too. Start the tour well after the NH season. Plenty of training time, maybe a home game or two as warm ups for the tour.

The scheduling seems bizarre, maybe the issue is that in the NH we are just so excited that is a lions year we can't wait for the tour to start...?

Lions tours make a huge amount of money for the host nation - yet they seem unwilling to play good hosts. Any change to schedules to fit in with the domestic competition of the hosts - will have a knock on impact on AP and Rabo as the Lions players would have to miss the corresponding number of weeks before returning to play.

Foley (probably under instruction from ARU) deprived his non aussie squad players the chance of a lifetime.

In Wales we annually weaken our chances in the Heineken cup to play touring sides, as do England. The same should be recipocated

Having weak sides as lead up is bad. Simple as that. The Lions would benefit far more from a loss or two than mega thrashings- something that will NOT happen at test time.

A loss (and one which no one will remember in 10 years) forces a side to look at it shortcomings, gel together as a unit more, explore options and extend a players ability to the max in order to avoid another one. So far we dont know the limits of this side at all as they havnt been put under the pump. Lions tours are notorious for having a long list of big wins only to lose the first test.

Moving the tour back would not be popular in the NH as there is a rest period for players returning from tours. This means touring players often miss the preseason with their clubs, only joining them weeks before the season starts,sometimes even missing the first few games of the season. One point that I have seen raised is why can't the matches with the Lions coinside with a bye week from the S15?

broadlandboy wrote:Moving the tour back would not be popular in the NH as there is a rest period for players returning from tours. This means touring players often miss the preseason with their clubs, only joining them weeks before the season starts,sometimes even missing the first few games of the season. One point that I have seen raised is why can't the matches with the Lions coinside with a bye week from the S15?

+1, the last Lions tour I remember Wales suffered many injuries that affected the following season, if the tour is later this would make the situation worse. This obviously affected the other Lions Countries/regions/clubs that supply most of the players.

the schedule for the season is becoming even more of an issue with the extrended seasons in nothern and southern hemispheres.
Very hard to see a way forward as the clubs are much more powerful than they were (in England anyway) which makes it hard to get players released early for Loins tours.

I think that future tours will need to be severely truncated with maybe only 3 warm up games and the three tests.

playing against weak oppononets doesnt do the lions or the corporate branding of the tour any favours.
punters will start to vote witht their feet and stop attending meaningless fixtures such as that against the force.

1. Players and coaches in the modern world who play for a living aren't dumb. They know when they've been hit by a storm and they know when they're taking sweets from a kid (yesterday). They know how to judge these games. Nobody is going to get hit by the surprise of a tougher unit facing them (either club or Australia itself). They might even find those games tough enough that they lose them, but they'll be losing because the other side was better, not because they were caught napping. Afterall, Australian players will be napping the whole way through to the tests. Anybody suggesting they won't be ready for a Lions side tighter in defence than the ones they've been watching so far?

2. The Lions sometimes feel they carry the eternal torch for the game itself and that they should be bowed to and have red carpet placed wherever they might walk. So let Woodward's word be law then, and chastise the mob of ruffians that is the Aussies by taking away future Lions tours from them.............................

Yeah, right. The silence from headquarters is deafening on that one, Clive The Lions shoot themselves in the foot because of petulance at the 'lack of respect' shown by those raw and blasted stubborn Aussies? We'll wait for it, Clive.

Another question worth asking is do the Lions benefit from having essentially two squads? Injury cover is necessary but does the size of the squad affect team morale? How about a smaller squad and tougher competition at the same time. How many of the dirt tracker players end up playing in the tests? Genuinely don't know but if the answer is very few then maybe they contribute to the problem in terms of diluting the fixture list.

That said stronger opposition is certainly required if the Lions wish to be competitive. Maybe a few PI players can plug the gaps.

Dirt Trackers???? In the Lions squad? Now, there's a 606 WW3 topic if you ever had the courage to name them.

Once the test squad and bench is announced subtract those names and hey presto you've got your good in the wet but not in the dry team.

Em...but there is three tests, kia.... and likely more injuries between now and the end.

You never know, maybe the Wets will form the majority of the eventual side that actually wins the series if it's a draw after two rounds and a bunch of the wonder boys have either been injured or have finally come to the end of their season form-wise, prematurely, before they get to that last game.

I say no they don't. Let's just drop the whole thing.

You always need injury cover Secret but God forbid you need that much cover. Won't be a series win if that's the case. I think far better is to have your first choice squad and cover for positions and play fewer games. Call up players if injury strikes.

With mid week games you need at least 30+ injury cover for front row

Cut out the mid week games then is my proposal. The Lions generally win these games at a canter and then get ambushed by the change in intensity come the tests.

These mid week tests are pointless at present. If they want to have them then why not play against tier 2 national sides? It would still be against a weaker team but one that would benefit from the exposure.
Either that or against Italy, France and a Southern Barbarian side.

Think about it from the other side. It's a great honor for club players to have a chance to play against the Lions. Many people have talked about traditional tours and how great they were. For me, I think its been good for the Lions to have a few easy games to get their feet under them sort out combinations etc. Given how they have players from 4 nations, I see a long build up as being just what they need. The easy games are like opposed training - that's okay. The game against the Reds was a bit of a tussle and I understand they'll be playing a pretty much full on Brumbies team (bar Wallabies of course).

I agree with nganboy.

Be careful what you wish for. If the lingo when the Lions gets chosen is that they are the 'best' 30something players in Britain and in Ireland, then having those 30something 'best' players encounter six tough as nails pre-test teams, that knock the stuffing out of them and potentially cause too many injuries, isn't wise science - as you might be left with too many fly-in replacements for the tests themselves. By definition, the fly-ins are not always the best players from the islands.

Afterall too, as I've said before, Austalian players aren't playing any games before the tests, just training. Do they need a series of tough encounters to prepare themselves for the Lions? They don't seem to think so.

The reds were a tougher test for the lions than the previous two games but they were not a good team. It was actually a poor Lions performance yesterday.

The Force had no real reason to field a weak team. Their Super 15 season is over as they have no hope of reaching the playoffs. There is no relegation in Super 15 either. Their coach and the union deserve to be fined etc for allowing such an insulting team to be put together.

Surely it cannot be too difficult for the IRB Etc to insist that the strongest available side be fielded? Fair enough pulling out the players who will be in the real tests.

Well, you can't have a situation whereby the IRB start to directly coach teams around the world; telling owners/head-coaches what players to choose for any particular high profile game: "Now look lads, this French game is a big publicity gig and we want the All Blacks to make sure McCaw and Carter are playing or there'll be a hefty fine. Sponsors and fans need your big guys on the field"

That's a National choice and indeed a club choice. It's really petulant, and bordering on arrogant, to suggest the Lions are offended by a weakened club side being put up against them...afterall, the Barbarians on paper should have been a tougher encounter than Force, but those mercenaries were getting well paid to have a bit of a holiday down to Hongkong and then home for their holidays. No talk about the Barbarians showing a lack of respect in the efforts they put in to their game.

The Force coach will make his choices based on his selfish plans for his side. The Lions game will have been a good work-out for their lesser players, perhaps giving some of them the boost in confidence that will aid Force now in the coming seasons. Force has its own agenda - and has a right to it. It was under no obligation to assist the Lion's preparations for what's to come in the Tests. That's Lions business.

MMaaxx wrote:The Force had no real reason to field a weak team. Their Super 15 season is over as they have no hope of reaching the playoffs. There is no relegation in Super 15 either. Their coach and the union deserve to be fined etc for allowing such an insulting team to be put together.

Particularly as a second string Tahs just gubbed them 28-13 anyway.

Foley can argue all he wants, but to suggest that having a better opportunity to finish in 12th place rather than 13th place in the Super competition this year is not really a good enough reason for denying very talented guys like McMeniman, Ebersohn, Godwin, Longbottom, Tessman and Faulkner a chance to put themselves in the shop window for the Wallabies. They probably won't get another chance.

Ask Luke Morahan this morning if playing well in a club game against the Lions can help your chances.

NZ has played against lots of teams which were deliberately not at full strength. And have delierately not played their top team either.
Its up to coachs and administrators to make decisions about which player is selected each week.

To morrow night Kirwan's going to play a schoolboy against France. just imagine this place if one of the Australian coachs did that.

Are the warm up games doing any good?

Well, not for Healy or Bowe...no.

Another Easssssyyyyyyyyy game for the Lions.

To days game was more of a training run out for the Lions in the first half...In the second half they got a bit more of a challenge. An awfull lot knock ons, handling errors, from the Lions.

How can the Lions benefit from such a none game?

Are these game's damaging the reputation of the Lions?

majesticimperialman wrote:Another Easssssyyyyyyyyy game for the Lions.

To days game was more of a training run out for the Lions in the first half...In the second half they got a bit more of a challenge. An awfull lot knock ons, handling errors, from the Lions.

How can the Lions benefit from such a none game?

Are these game's damaging the reputation of the Lions?

Not damaging the reputation of the Lions really. More Australian teams. To be fair, on paper (bar today) these are all good names for opponents. You can't necessarily predict what sides are going to be put out.

I was glad that the Force lost their SupeRugby game last weekend though after their changes. Resting players never works. Just ask Darren Edwards.

I'm not sure the Lions can complain too much as there doesn't seem to be any structures or binding agreements in place to ensure the strongest sides are available. Nor any penalties for not playing competitive squads.

Relying on 'gentlemen's agreements' in the professional era is a tad naive.

aucklandlaurie wrote: To morrow night Kirwan's going to play a schoolboy against France. just imagine this place if one of the Australian coachs did that.

Wasn't James O'Connor eight or something depressingly precocious when he got his first Wallaby cap?

He still looks about 8 now.

Why not give the polynesian islands a bit of a boost, let the Lions play a South Sea Barbarians side, 2 games maybe in Perth with all proceeds going to the islands federations, surely they would give the Liions a better game than the 2nd teams the Aussies have been turning out

Better still, why not play on some of the islands themselves.  Instead of dragging the Lions tourists to the usual hunting grounds for Lions games, encourage them to make a real tour of it.

Good idea, but how many Lions would be left standing after playing South Sea Barbarians side in a 'gentle' warm-up game?

The good ones.  You'd use the cannon fodder Lions for the 'gentle' games.